KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Aluminum Frame Conversion (AFC) => Topic started by: CS18 on September 28, 2011, 01:56:42 AM
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Finished up my 500AF a month and a half ago and absolutely love it. Unfortunately last time out, at 4.7 hours on the meter (I completely rebuilt the engine before sticking the engine in the AF), I suffered a loss of compression. Just tore the engine down and saw what happened. It seems the locating pin for the bottom ring came out and allowed the ring to turn round until it got to the exhaust port, at which point the ring caught in a big way wrecking piston and barrel. :cry:
I've had bad experience with a four stroke Wossner piston in the past, but decided to give them another go in the 2 smoker. Suffice to say never again...
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Not what I want to hear.. I was going to try them next.. After my wiseco machining flaws... I didn't want to run wiseco again... Hmmm
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id say go after wossner and get them to pay for the damages their s**tty product caused
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id say go after wossner and get them to pay for the damages their s**tty product caused
Thats the plan anyway...
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good luck with that.......mates 480 engined tdr ate 2 sets of wossner pistons and the barells too....K. :x
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I dont think its a Wossner problem. Yes it sucks, but I have had it happen on Wiseco and Pro-X pistons too. This is always one of the places I inspect on a piston before putting into a bike. (use a small punch and give them a tap to make sure they are seated) not a guarantee but a good precaution.
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can you be more specific Roost, what are you punching with the tap? K.
scratch that, you mean loc pin.K.
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the hungry tdr made a mess, we think, due to Wossner stating that the thermal expansion of their pistons is reduced enabling a tighter piston to bore clearance.locked up 2 sets. when run at an increased clearance, (but still a smidge tighter than the Wiseco) she runs good.K.
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This is what they are going to tell you "The pin fell out do to a too lean condition , send us the piston and we will perform a rockwell hardness test on it this will tell if the piston was run hot for a long period" . I have already been done this road with wiseco and it never went anywhere. Good luck! CBX
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Manufacturers wont cover incidentals, period, even if you do get them to own a defect. I'm doing a trx650 rincon topend right now & didnt want to hear of these problems, but I guess atleast with the 4 stroke no locating pin. Glad to hear some on the tighter fitment spec kwakman, I'll make sure they give her a little more clearance. Anybody tried Namura?
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Vertex all the way !!
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a buddy of mine had the exact same thing happen to his 89 rm250 with a weisco piston and weisco gave him a new piston and resleeved his cylinder and gave him big trailer stickers for free
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Vertex all the way !!
I've run Vertex in mine CR125 and CR250 for several years, worked perfect.
Have never found one for the KX500.
Do you have them in England then?
Dutchie
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Use genuine parts !! Never had one of them fail........cheaper is never better.
G 8-)
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Use genuine parts !! Never had one of them fail........cheaper is never better.
G 8-)
Plus 100 on OEM
Bob W
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Use genuine parts !! Never had one of them fail........cheaper is never better.
G 8-)
Only forged goes in my bikes.. :|
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Use genuine parts !! Never had one of them fail........cheaper is never better.
G 8-)
Only forged goes in my bikes.. :|
Stock Cast Piston:
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Thought a bit of an update was due. 5 months later and I'm no further forward. After in excess of 15 phone calls, all following the same, "I'll have to contact so and so..." line there's no word of a replacement after being promised one months ago. It would be safe to assume they have no intention of sending one.
On a side note, while I recognise this could've happened to any piston, it's a bit disappointing that it happened after less than 5 hours and then to be faced with absolutely dismal customer service. A friend of mine had the same issue with a PROX piston. They replaced the piston and replated the cylinder FOC! Also, I recently had a PROX valve spring break on one of their steel inlet valve kits shortly after being put in. I rang Prox about the problem, sent back the old spring and valve and they sent out a new kit the next day, as well as giving me a half price piston. That, in my opinion, is how customer service should be. Suffice to say I will never entertain a Wossner product again...
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I surer hope this Tecnium thing looks up soon. no reply on weight yet....K.
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It's unfortunate they don't try harder to maintain a positive image. I ran many a Wossner piston in my sons 05 CR125 and my 05 CR250 and they were fantastic.
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you guys need to stop giving cast pistons a bad rap they are pleanty strong for any type of motor your going to build the only time I would ever require or need a forged piston is if I'm running nitrous and I know 99% of all k5s are not so I guess I don't see eye to eye with you guys on the cast vs forged debate personally I think cast pistons are much better if you keep good tolerances on everything they will most certainly out last an expanding and contracting forged piston the reason why so many people have cast failures is because they ride the s**t out of their bikes and the don't maintain them and keep riding them till they fail then blame it on the piston that's called a defective owner I've NEVER seen a cast piston fail when the bike was maintained properly. That being said I just had my bike replated to freshen it up and I ordered a pro x with it and they sent a wossner I wasn't very happy but I threw it in and it works fine but not necessary so I guess to make a forged piston worth using I guess I'm going to have to throw the boondocker nitrous kit on it that I have sitting around
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I think cast pistons are great!!!....you can get a 15-20 foot spread when you shoot a 30.06 through em from 75 yards!!!....won't see that with a forged. :-D
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make fun of forged pistons all you want I don't think some of you understand metallurgy at all so I guess you wouldn't understand why cast pistons are better for non nitrous motors, just because forged pistons expand opposed to cracking or breaking doesn't make them better I've seen SEROIUS damage happen due to forged pistons expanding, cast have no expansion or contraction so you can run tighter tolerances which means the motor has less stress and slop and less stress and slop means longer engine life peroid.
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read the "wiseco blues" thread....ALL the proof ANYONE needs is all right on this site....just have to take some time and search.Some guys like/swear by cast,and I say good for you,and best of luck to ya...I'll never run em in any of my toys!!!
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well I see your comment says "if ya run cast you come in last" I'll race you :-D anytime I guarantee I don't come in last :evil: I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I don't think any of you took classes on metallurgy and how metals react to certain conditions so like I said I doubt you would know so I don't blame you and I've read all those threads and they don't prove anything there are so many variables when a piston fails 90% of the time it had nothing to do with the piston like a bad crank, bad fuel, bad filter, wrong jetting etc and none of those things have anything to do with the pistons quality or lack of quality so if you ever want to put my bike against yours I'm down (but for the time being I'm sort of a hypocrite cause I still have the wossner but at least I can try the nitrous with it) I'll show you boys what cast can do he'll I'll make my own comment "if you run cast your whoopin ass" :-P
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Oh good God man...let it go,seriously,or seek professional help.so you like cast...whoopi.That's why I said in my last post that some guys do.You're never gonna convince the the forged guys any different...in fact...you'd have better luck standing in the middle of a hurricane,pullin out your d**k,and pissin DIRECTLY into the wind,and not get any on you,then you will trying to convince any of the guys that swear by forged.
Seriously....life is way too short to let yourself get all worked up over something so stupid,that you'll never change....have a wonderful day,sir 8-)
To the Administrators..(Motorrad)....I apoligize for stirring up another cast vs forged....I was just making a friendly joke....and well,you see where that went...lol
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I just want to know why the professed metallurgist hasn't won a nobel prize for having a non expanding cast piston.
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I love seeing to pot stirred. Here is another one, Louie Chevrolet, the man that help start the company that still carries his name, left because of difference of opinion on design. Later, went on to race for Ford. Even Mr. Chevrolet knew that Fords were better race cars. I love telling my Chevy buddies that little historical fact. You can make anything faster, did you see that guy that used leaf blowers to "supercharge" his Corvette, too funny.
What was this forum about?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqBy1R7IMGE&list=WLC353C36506CDA7E2&index=20&feature=plpp_video
Super sweet vid
alex
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holy s**t!!...I could'nt imagine rippin down that trail like that on a mountain bike....good vid!!
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wow buddy no need to take what i said negatively its just a friendly debate, what am a not allowed to share what i think and know on the subject because i dont agree with you I know you guys are always sharing your opinion on the subject but when i do i need to "seek professional help" wow thats not nice :cry: you dont need to take everything so personal if you couldn't tell that it was all friendly joking by all the sarcastic yellow faces then i guess you have no sense humor which is a bummer. And just so you know i respect everyone on this site, hell you have given me and others lots of good advice and i appreciate it 100% we should all be here for the benefit of each other, and just so you know i wasn't "all worked up" i was having some friendly fun being a smart ass because of your smart ass comment if you can do it why cant I ? Also fyi i dont use little funny yellow faces when im being serious so if you see them just know its not a serious conversation, so sorry if you took it the wrong way and you have yourself a wonderful day too. P.S I have pissed into the wind with great success! see that was a joke :wink:
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make fun of forged pistons all you want I don't think some of you understand metallurgy at all so I guess you wouldn't understand why cast pistons are better for non nitrous motors.....
I have a degreen in mechanical engineering.. is that enough?
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I have a great sense of humor....I made a joke about cast,and then you said "I don't think any of you took classes in metallurgy."....basically saying none of us know what we're doing.I don't need to take a class....I have enough hands on experiance and have seen too many catastrophic failures with cast,and none with forged in the last 32 years.
I felt your words were a little harsh,so I gave back.....sorry if I upset you.
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well thats why i said "i dont think" not i know plus didnt say that untill you TOLD me that "ALL the proof ANYONE needs is right here" basically saying what others know is wrong if its different from your "proof" and i said that because everyone i know whos educated in metalurgy will not use them and ive seen many failures myself and out of prbably 30-35 failures ive seen only 2 were cast failures both were rider/owner error all the rest ive seen were forged and like i said before 90% of piston failures have nothing to do with the piston but i have most certainly seen forged pistons fail just from expanding and locking up and then taking out the cylinder, con rod and crank i have even seen a case destroyed because the rod bent so bad so lets agree to disagree and i will never bring this cursed subject up again ohh and Motorad you know your more than qualified thats why im confused with your preference well then again its probably because your one of the VERY FEW guys who can achieve 10'000rpm so i guess i see why you would
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all the rest ive seen were forged and like i said before 90% of piston failures have nothing to do with the piston but i have most certainly seen forged pistons fail just from expanding and locking up and then taking out the cylinder, con rod and crank i have even seen a case destroyed because the rod bent so bad so lets agree to disagree and i will never bring this cursed subject up again
Haha...agreed.
The main reason guys have problems with forged "expanding and locking up" as you say,is because guys set them up way too tight.I bring this up because you said you're running a Wossner...I am too.On the box,Wossner says recommended tolerence is .0028....that's way too tight!!.I e-mailed one of the guys on this forum that deals with Wossner and builds motors...(he knows who he is)...he said they set them up at .004,and that makes them "happier".I went in between at .0036.After 1 hour of run time,I pulled the motor and inspected the cylinder for any signs of over tightness of tolerences...all good.I did the same thing at six hours,and still good.I'm at just about ten hours now.It is a snug fit,but if I had gone with Wossners tolerences...it very well could've been bad.Hopefully you did'nt go with the .0028.
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I'm going back to May 7/11 from when I started the official complaint to Wossner on the cr500 pistons also.
I was working direct with John Noonan
I also added more clearance than the box called for (btw, the old boxes show a tighter spec than the newer)
I ran the first one at .003" and stuck it, ran the same piston again, swiss cheesed with lube holes at .005". The afternoon that I stuck the first one I installed my spare cylinder with a vertex and ran it for a week or more, wfo. hillclimbs, bush, field and didnt fail it, eliminating exactly what I'd faught the wossner dudes about, the tune.
another engine I set it up at .0035", leary after the other sticking and stuck this one also.
during the time it took to get that motor installed i'd built a motor for a customer the same, .0035", he also stuck it.
I ran the .005" one in the winter, on the lake and stuck it once more, but i had a good reason for it that time :-D
I got it back together at .006-.0065", (depending on where you measured it, it was pretty scarred up) and ran it another 10+ hours until i sunk the dome trying some evil ignition timing this spring.
I failed 6 pistons, some had an intake window cut, all had .020"-.022" ring end gap (these single ring ones need more)
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(these single ring ones need more)
Single ring???....is that an older one?....mine has two.
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Being a long time racer more as a builder then a rider/driver (except drag racing) ANY piston can and will fail under the right conditions. Anytime you modify and push the envelope you will have failures. Just part of the cost of more power. Cast will work fine under the right conditions and use. As I do not push or modify the internals on my dirt bike like I used to I could probably use a cast piston with good outcome. Not some of the other guys on this site with the mods I have seen! Geez guys! I can?t imagine how insane some of the built bikes on here must be! Reminds me of a friend that had a Hayabusa built for drags that dyno?d at 430HP and was STILL PLATED! He offered to let me ride it and I said ?No.? I am sure if it had been ten years earlier I would have said ?Yes!? and I would have tasted the power. Age and injury does that to you?????
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I am sure if it had been ten years earlier I would have said ?Yes!? and I would have tasted the power. Age and injury does that to you?????
haha...I can relate to that! :-D
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I definitely set mine loose I was worried about it sticking so far its probably got 15hrs on it and its still running great so I'm probably going to throw the boondocker kit (50hp) on it a see what she does with over 100hp its going to be pretty crazy hope my crank holds
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I definitely set mine loose I was worried about it sticking so far its probably got 15hrs on it and its still running great so I'm probably going to throw the boondocker kit (50hp) on it a see what she does with over 100hp its going to be pretty crazy hope my crank holds
are you using two nozzles? if not the best you can get out of a boondocker is 25 hp, 5hp per hole and the max holes 5, ( there are some 6 hole nozzles but as far as I know 1 is in my posession the rest are in R&D because they freeze up)so unless your using 2 nozzles you aren't getting 50hp out of a boondocker. you could get 50 out of a cold fusion or boss noss, they are both wet systems whereas the boondocker is dry. Boondocker is a simple system and once you get it set up you don't have to worry about them, the wet systems are a pain, using a regulator does help but still sensitive to bottle pressure.
Also, if your going to run nitrous, do NOT run Vforce reeds, they will disintegrate, i mean literally
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yes I'm using two nozzles into a straight K&N (no airbox) and I'm going to make a little aluminum box to hold the 9.6v battery so I can just plug the charger into the aluminum box without have to remove it I'm still trying to figure out how a clean way to mount the bottle and. I'm using stock reeds cause I previously herd that about the vforce with nitrous unless you have a better suggestion of something I should try using
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I've used boysen with decent success. When I ran my 500 on Nitrous I used a titanium rod, seen many spit the rod out the bottom on Methanol. 50hp would scare me, not the ride the relability. two nozzles shotting 25hp each will consume a pretty sizeable amount of NOS, you using a 2.5 bottle? Some guys remove one radiator, seems like a bad idea to me, I used 12 oz bottles and change them every pass, they are mounted in front of the radiator off to the shroud side.
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I have a couple bottles and I think I'll try the 12oz bottle too just because this is more for fun than anything and I don't think I should get to carried away (plus if I have to we have a refill setup) its also just to feel the power difference it will only be used in the sand doing some drag racing I would never think of using that much power on the street( my bike is street legal) or dirt with out a seriously extended swing arm like you or a wheelie bar, I'm actually thinking of fabbing up a wheelie bar set up to see what kind of 1/4mile time I could get out of one of these single cylinder beasts I bet I could get LOW 9s maybe faster
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by the way, the 9.6v battery is a little weak if the ambient temp is high causing high bottle pressure, I use two 7.2 in series and have never had a problem with this setup.