KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: tschisi on March 01, 2011, 06:30:34 AM
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Hi!
I just started to dismantle my bottom end to replace the main bearings and seals.
As suspected, the first questions are raised before the engine is even split. :roll:
I would be glad if you could guide me a little bit through the process, this is my first bottom end.
- Would you replace parts routinely or just the main bearings and seals?
What about the other bearings? Output shaft? I think i have read that standard bearings fit?
- How much clearance is ok for the gearwheels?
Can the ones without pitting stay?
- My clutch basket has rough notches from the clutch discs, i think they are too deep for filing?
http://img7.imageshack.us/i/bottomend007.jpg/
I also have notches on the hub, but this ones can hardly be felt with the fingernail.
http://img97.imageshack.us/i/bottomend001.jpg/
- What about putting thread inserts to the cases, such as helicoil or timesert?
I don?t want to re-assamble everything an then veer a screw.
Do you think there is enough material for drilling and for the inserts?
thx guys!
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if you split the cases you should do all you can. my personal opinion is replace all seals and bearings and every thing that is out of spec. there is a good thread on here where we helped some one else out i will see if i can find it
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ok i found it. http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,7974.msg61265.html#msg61265
its for a 250 but most info is usfull or all. read it from start to finish and you should get a good idea of what you need to do. then of course ask all the question you need to
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nice link, thanks!
Although it has made me afraid of a worn crankshaft... :-(
What do you think about my clutch basket?
This could become my biggest problem.
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i am not a fan of filing baskets, if you must you have to take the same amount of each finger or there will be uneven stress on the plates. i have known plates to break for this reason. you could spend thousands on it if you want it depends on you budget. if the clutch was working fine then leave it until it starts to misbehave as its an easy job with the motor in the bike.
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Well, without having an eye on this when riding, i didn't notice anything. You're right, i'll focus on that later...
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I removed everything outside of the case, except of the "starwheel".
Does it have to be removed before splitting?
I heard a tool for holding it, and protecting the shift forks, is necessary to open the screw?
edit:
It?s about this wheel:
http://img822.imageshack.us/i/bottomend.jpg/
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Can you please tell me how to deal with this wheel?
I just watched a movie from RockyMountain ATV.MC, and they just opened the screw and took it off.
What if it sits very tight?
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if you mean the part that sits on the end of the sellector drum, then just leave it you can do all you need to do with it in place. post a pic of it if your are unsure
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Pic 2 posts above
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your pics show the clutch basket and inner clutch hub, is that what you mean by the star wheel (i have never heard of a star wheel)
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No i mean this wheel:
http://img822.imageshack.us/i/bottomend.jpg/
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yep, leave it where it is, you can work around and the cases will split fine with it in place :-D
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It?s split.
I noticed you would routinely replace the 6 inner bearings, 2 main seals and the 3 shift forks.
Right?
Additional i saw two things:
I?ve got pitting on one of my gearwheels.
Is it enough to replace this one?
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6915/bottomend008.jpg) (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/bottomend008.jpg/)
My crankshaft seems to be worn.
The shiny smooth spot next to the rough areas, from the seal?!
Also the diameters are different.
(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3656/43489980.jpg) (http://img849.imageshack.us/i/43489980.jpg/)
What do you think?
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IMO on the gear i would find a replacement. As for the crank I'm not sure on sorry
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the sellector forks need to be measured to see if they are within spec. the gear should be replaced, also check the drive dogs on the side of the gears for rounding. the crank is not usable, the journal is down on size. 29.95 will spin in the bearing. you need to buy a new crank half or find someone that can repair it. i would do all the bearings inside the casings to be sure
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Do you know the values for mearuring the shift forks?
Can i find them in the clymer manual here in the forum?
Can anytone tell me the size of the 5 inner ball bearings?
I want to check prices of standard bearings, and don?t know if it?s good to measure the size of my used bearings...
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yes all specs are in the clymer. is it a kx 500?.
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Yes, a 1990.
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(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i75/Friar-Tuck/ServManKX500tranny2-22-20112.jpg)
look around here for some more info: http://s69.photobucket.com/home/Friar-Tuck/index
and click forward from here: http://www.kxriders.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=1&pos=12
8-)
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crank seal/bearing area can be repaired by machining and then being hard chromed.crank has to be v bad (worse than yours) to be completely scrap. :-D
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When you are ready to buy bearings try to find a local bearing supplier. I have a place called Joint Clutch & Gear. They build drive shafts from scratch and carry all kinds of gears, u-joints, and bearings. I saved about $100 going that route instead of getting Kawasaki or Aftermarket bearings. Just make sure you get "High Speed" bearings or they wont last very long. There are numbers etched in each bearing on one or both sides. If you take the old bearings with you they will match them up.
A local machine shop should be able to fix the bearing surface on your crank. I've seen much worse that have been fixed and worked good.
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I?m still waiting for my crank to be pressed out of the right case and the halves to be separated. :-(
My shift forks are in spec, there are just tiny spots on the "guide pins" that are out of spec if i measure exactly there.
Btw, another question that i already know what you?ll say:
Can i just replace the rod bearings and pins, and keep the old rod?
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I recommend if replacing the lower rod bearing you might as well replace the rod. Bearings will create their own groove and putting new bearings in an old rod could cause problems in the future. Always better to do it once as it will save you money and down time if the rod or bearing gives out in the near future. Which equals more ride time.
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I?m thinking about buying a tool for pressing the case halfs together again.
Such as the tusk cse splitting tool shown on the youtube RockyMountain ATV MC clips.
Unfortunately i can?t find it in european eb*y.
Do you just press the cases together with a hydraulic press or do you use special tools?
I heard the crank can be bent when just pressing the cases together, and not "pulling the crank into the case".
:?
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pressing the cases together is a new one on me.you have several things to line up and lots of stuff to damage using a press if things aren't lined up correctly.as far as im aware, you can draw the crank into the left side case using tusk tool after using the heat method on right case, but you may as well save ?60 and use heat on both sides and a plastic or other soft faced mallet to help get the shafts into line.as for ebay, get the item number from ebay u.s. and enter it into search bar on your local fleabay.jobs a fish. whereabouts are you based?
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I?m in austria, but i can?t find it on eb*y us either?!
Are there any other tools?
I can?t imagine everyone who is splitting cases owns the tusk tool...
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I was offered a tool like this:
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9837/toolt.jpg)
Am i right to think that:
- This tool is ok but i need one more Adapter (should be just a screw) to insert it into the right crank half?
Like the two black screws in this:
http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/productDetail.do?webCatId=22&webTypeId=140&navTitle=Tools/Shop&navType=type&prodFamilyId=17166&stockId=143200
- and because of that i don?t need a clip like this:
http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/productDetail.do?navType=type&webTypeId=117&navTitle=Tools%2FShop&webCatId=22&prodFamilyId=30873
because the k5 has a primary gear with a thread, not a clip?
- and that i need some special tool to loosen the primary drive?
Please help, i?d like to offer the tool soon.
Question 2:
I could get a connecting rod set from HotRods Inc.
Are they ok?
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I used a Kawasaki crank jig and hydraulic press. They aren't terribly expensive. I can't remember how much it was, but it wasn't prohibitive.
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/snoopjonnyjon/100_0014.jpg)
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How does the jig work?
Is it just a distance to prevent the crank from bending?
That brings me to the idea to build a distance an use a simple press too :mrgreen:
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Yeah, it's just a spreader to keep the crank from bending in on itself on the side opposite the crank pin.
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Did you also use some underlays for the cases?
hm, nevertheless using a puller tool is more sympathetic to me...
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Did you also use some underlays for the cases?
hm, nevertheless using a puller tool is more sympathetic to me...
I havnt seen a puller that will work on the K5 crank.. (no threads on the primary side... only a c-clip)..
No press is needed..
heat the bearing (I use a few sockets heated to 500F)... freeze the crank... (with crank Jig installed)... and the two will FALL together from their own weight.
If you work fast/orginised enough... (have the tranny already assembled in the case)... you can have both mains heated... Case sealer already applied.... You can put all the bottom end together with one freezer session on the crank...
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It has a c-clip?
I didn?t see one :?
So i would need the adapter mentioned in reply #27?!
Heating/freezing:
Don?t i have to install the crank seals before assembling?
Aren?t they damaged when heating?
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It has a c-clip?
I didn?t see one :?
So i would need the adapter mentioned in reply #27?!
Heating/freezing:
Don?t i have to install the crank seals before assembling?
Aren?t they damaged when heating?
Didnt see the "adaptor".. Didnt follow this post till just now
Here is my order.... Not for the faint of heart, or the SLOW worker.. as it all happens VERY VERY fast..
Get a Beer...
I install crank seals, then mains in the cases Using Heat/freeze method (drink a beer).... install tranny... (dont forget to GREASE ALL SEALS)
Oil crank.... put in freezer overnight... Have another beer or 4
Next day... turn oven on to 500F.. put in 4 impact sockets, that are same size as "inner race" on mains.. Have a beer.
let sockets heat for about an hour... or so.. have 2 beers
take 2 sockets out... Place on the inner race of each case.. for about 4min... This method keeps all heat away from crank seals (your next to the freezer, get another beer)
While those are on there... Put Case sealer on Primary side case..
Get other 2 sockets... Place on mains (take other 2 off).. (need another beer?)
let sit for 2 min... then go get the crank (my freezer is a 1min round trip from bench).. (no time for beer need to work fast at this point.)
Drop crank in Clutch side case (the one the tranny is in)... it will fall all the way through and go "CLUNK" against the main... (have to have case proped up so crank end wont hit bench).. I have a universal motor stand built out of 2x4's for this...
Imediatly get ignition side case.. and Drop on...
Make quick sure it spins free and is centered.. now is the quick time for a light tap with a rubber hammer to undo any bind your in...
Install Case bolts you ALREADY HAVE LAYED OUT.. In order... along with proper tools.....
Torque to half spec...
...........Have a sip of beer................
Torque to full spec...
Have a beer.. you did good..
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You would need the "c-clip" adaptor ... to work on a Kx crank..
Yes. there is a C-clip... that holds the gear onto the end of the crank on the primary side...
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I?ll (have to) go the middle way, because i can only order the no-name tool shown above.
So i will freeze/heat the crank into the right case without a tool.
Just like in beer-loving motorrad?s guidance. :lol:
Then use the tool to pull the crank into the left case half without time pressure.
With a little luck one of the two nuts from the tool-pic fits the k5?s crank-thread.
I?m doing this the first time so i?d like to avoid the tool-less method...
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I?ll (have to) go the middle way, because i can only order the no-name tool shown above.
So i will freeze/heat the crank into the right case without a tool.
Just like in beer-loving motorrad?s guidance. :lol:
Then use the tool to pull the crank into the left case half without time pressure.
With a little luck one of the two nuts from the tool-pic fits the k5?s crank-thread.
I?m doing this the first time so i?d like to avoid the tool-less method...
Thats the way I did mine.......the crank puller does not come with the required nuts, just use your existing flywheel nut with the tool.......no hammers needed!
DoldGy
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hm, i thought the tool-nuts have threads on the inner and the outer side so they can be fixed on both the crank and in the tool?!
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It has a c-clip?
I didn?t see one :?
So i would need the adapter mentioned in reply #27?!
Heating/freezing:
Don?t i have to install the crank seals before assembling?
Aren?t they damaged when heating?
Didnt see the "adaptor".. Didnt follow this post till just now
Here is my order.... Not for the faint of heart, or the SLOW worker.. as it all happens VERY VERY fast..
Get a Beer...
I install crank seals, then mains in the cases Using Heat/freeze method (drink a beer).... install tranny... (dont forget to GREASE ALL SEALS)
Oil crank.... put in freezer overnight... Have another beer or 4
Next day... turn oven on to 500F.. put in 4 impact sockets, that are same size as "inner race" on mains.. Have a beer.
let sockets heat for about an hour... or so.. have 2 beers
take 2 sockets out... Place on the inner race of each case.. for about 4min... This method keeps all heat away from crank seals (your next to the freezer, get another beer)
While those are on there... Put Case sealer on Primary side case..
Get other 2 sockets... Place on mains (take other 2 off).. (need another beer?)
let sit for 2 min... then go get the crank (my freezer is a 1min round trip from bench).. (no time for beer need to work fast at this point.)
Drop crank in Clutch side case (the one the tranny is in)... it will fall all the way through and go "CLUNK" against the main... (have to have case proped up so crank end wont hit bench).. I have a universal motor stand built out of 2x4's for this...
Imediatly get ignition side case.. and Drop on...
Make quick sure it spins free and is centered.. now is the quick time for a light tap with a rubber hammer to undo any bind your in...
Install Case bolts you ALREADY HAVE LAYED OUT.. In order... along with proper tools.....
Torque to half spec...
...........Have a sip of beer................
Torque to full spec...
Have a beer.. you did good..
hi motorrad
thanks for that info that hot socket is a good idea [i will probably need 10 sockets ] shame kawasaki dont leave us fit the seasl from the outside like honda
anyone use locktite on main bearing journals and case housings ?
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It has a c-clip?
I didn?t see one :?
So i would need the adapter mentioned in reply #27?!
Heating/freezing:
Don?t i have to install the crank seals before assembling?
Aren?t they damaged when heating?
Didnt see the "adaptor".. Didnt follow this post till just now
Here is my order.... Not for the faint of heart, or the SLOW worker.. as it all happens VERY VERY fast..
Get a Beer...
I install crank seals, then mains in the cases Using Heat/freeze method (drink a beer).... install tranny... (dont forget to GREASE ALL SEALS)
Oil crank.... put in freezer overnight... Have another beer or 4
Next day... turn oven on to 500F.. put in 4 impact sockets, that are same size as "inner race" on mains.. Have a beer.
let sockets heat for about an hour... or so.. have 2 beers
take 2 sockets out... Place on the inner race of each case.. for about 4min... This method keeps all heat away from crank seals (your next to the freezer, get another beer)
While those are on there... Put Case sealer on Primary side case..
Get other 2 sockets... Place on mains (take other 2 off).. (need another beer?)
let sit for 2 min... then go get the crank (my freezer is a 1min round trip from bench).. (no time for beer need to work fast at this point.)
Drop crank in Clutch side case (the one the tranny is in)... it will fall all the way through and go "CLUNK" against the main... (have to have case proped up so crank end wont hit bench).. I have a universal motor stand built out of 2x4's for this...
Imediatly get ignition side case.. and Drop on...
Make quick sure it spins free and is centered.. now is the quick time for a light tap with a rubber hammer to undo any bind your in...
Install Case bolts you ALREADY HAVE LAYED OUT.. In order... along with proper tools.....
Torque to half spec...
...........Have a sip of beer................
Torque to full spec...
Have a beer.. you did good..
hi motorrad
thanks for that info that hot socket is a good idea [i will probably need 10 sockets ] shame kawasaki dont leave us fit the seasl from the outside like honda
anyone use locktite on main bearing journals and case housings ?
Yes read my jeff ward motor build thread about retaining compound...
And always use case sealer on the seals...
I plan on makeing a set of cases that I can change them from the outside.
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Still waiting f?r the parts...
In between i heards that the HotRods products are not so good.
Would you confirm that?
I ordered a HotRods connecting rod set, no Kawasaki set available...
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buy a vesrah rod kit.theyre forged, made in japan and have silver plated bearing cages which are tougher and lighter. don't know about you, but I kinda need a beer after that.........
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beers all around,
great advise
thanks a 12 pack motard
:mrgreen:
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btw,
I?ve got heat traces on both of my crank halfs:
(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/225/bild001fi.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/bild001fi.jpg/)
I?m planning to get a new conrod-set and have one crank half repaired (it?s worn by 0,05mm on the bearing seat).
So, should i worry about those heat-traces additionally?
I think my bearing seats in the case are ok, because i see no damages, and the bearings can?t be inserted/removed without heating or tools?!
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Are you sure the vesrah conrods are better than the hotrods?
The hotrods? packaging says it?s double forged...
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I once asked the collective on here about the heat traces but to a man all said thats ok. your cases sound ok if you cant slip bearings in or out, but the hotrods rod is not a good plan.there have been reports of their k5 application not being too clever.I would absolutely not compromise with this.if you can't get a kwak rod, the vesrah is japanese and forged, and I have found no reports of problems with them, and vesrah are an oem supplier.PRO-X rods are supposedly oe quality, but there not forged.and as for double forging,once ought to be enough.my 5 quids worth.K.
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I see.
I managed to order a vesrah, don?t want to risk anything...
For now, only two questions are not really answered for me.
1:
Would you replace only the one gearwheel with the pitting or both?
Some of you posted to replace the wheel, did you mean also the "second wheel"?
(They are very expensive...)
(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/4581/bottomend005.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/bottomend005.jpg/)
2:
Motorrad explained to freeze the crank with the jig inserted.
Is it a problem to freeze the crank without a jig?
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I would do them both.you can see marks on the 'good' one caused by the bad one.it is possible to do the crank without a jig, but after going to so much trouble getting everything just 'so', would you want to tweak the crank whilst putting it in? Believe me, you arent the only person on here who asks themself whether the cost is worth the benefit, I know my answer, you're the only one who can decide yours.Keep at it, the smile when the pipe note changes and the bars go light before the poo and giggles come out will make the hassle, expense, and going to sleep thinking about port timing worth it in the end.Or I'm in deep, deep sh%t. :wink:
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Well, the thing is that i don?t see marks on the good one, i?ll check the price..
I?m planning to use the heat/freeze method for the right crank side (should just slide in?!), and an installer tool for the left side, so i don?t really understand how it could be tweaked?!
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an installer is not the same as a jig.the jig sits between crankwheels around conrod and prevents the carefully set distance between crankwheels when being pressed in.you should be okay without one if using heat freeze method.if you look level with the bottom line of red box across to the left you will see in centre of gear what appears to be wear, and the same on 'good' gear in same place.see it?
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I must be blind, i only see the original notches on the teeth.
i?ll have a closer look at the wheel.
Can i leave it inside when no damages are visible?
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original notches? you must have 89 on as my 86 doesnt have them.looked like damage from here :roll:
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Yes, mine is a 90.
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Alright, i managed to damage the main seal seat when removing the seal.
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/477/a002e.jpg)
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7179/a001sy.jpg)
Buying two new case halfs is not an option, so i hope this is not a big problem?!
I?ll add case sealant to the outer seal seat anyway.
Would you also replace this shell when doing a bottom end rebuild?
the output shaft?s right bearing runs in it.
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2446/a003vd.jpg)
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you need to find someone to weld the seal seat piece that broke off back on.preferably a reputable bike engine guy who has experience of fixing cases, and obviously handy at welding ally.as for the bearing sleeve, meaure it with a digital caliper,not sure if specs are in clymer but I'll have a look.make sure the guy you use to fix cases knows his s**t, as your engine will run lean and damage other parts.the seal must seat properly (ie be welded back on straight otherwise seal wont have a uniform surface to seal against) and the weld must be airtight.hth.K.
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Hm, i don?t want to be ungrateful or advice-resistant, but i think welding near a bearing/seal seat would be the worst because of the warp?!
Can?t imagine the damage is that bad because it?s just a stop for the seat when pushing it in, which is not even present on nowadays engines...
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1969/a003hf.jpg)
Guess you notice that i do not want to admit it :wink:
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guys who do this kind of work know about the heat warpage.there is a company down the road from me(cmm again tuck-o,the six cylinder gsx!)that welded the gsx11 cases and cylinders (an extra cyl each side of the original four) to create a cbx 1000 esque gsx1650,so dont worry about that.it might seal as is,hard to tell by the photo, but personally I wouldnt risk a lean out as they can get expensive.Your call???K.
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dare I ask what you used to remove the seal??? :-D
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:-D
I cut it, very carefully, with a metal-clipper to get it weak.
Then i started to tap it out with a plastic hammer, but forgot to look for the right side/direction.
You can imagine my face then...
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do you mean you tried to tap it out from the wrong side(inside of c.case)?K.
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Yap, just hasted...
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that must of stung....
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its not insurmountable though.....there are pics in the Eric Gorr tuning book of seal areas that have been repaired by welding on race bikes, so its not uncommon.just find someone who knows their stuff.kxr member Roostius Maximus will probably know someone, if he can't do it himself...hth.K.
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This bearing and seal removal has made me wondering about two things.
How to press the new bearings in without damaging them, the old ones sat really tight.
But i guess it should work with a big socket.
And how the bearings can be installed to the right place, as they sit on the inner end of the seat, while the seals sit on the outer side, with about 5mm of space in between.
Don?t understand how that distance can be kept when sliding the frozen bearing in or pulling the crank in?!
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the outer bearing race sits against the case, with space inside for the seal.K.
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More and more novice questions come to my mind, although i thought i was the best mechanic in the world :-D
Heating the case and freezing the main bearing for assembly, sounds like a plan.
But heating the case with the main seal already installed?!
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More and more novice questions come to my mind, although i thought i was the best mechanic in the world :-D
Heating the case and freezing the main bearing for assembly, sounds like a plan.
But heating the case with the main seal already installed?!
didnt we cover this in post #34??
http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,8811.msg71771.html#msg71771
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You explained how to keep the heat away from the seals when installing the crank to the mains, but not how to do it when installing the mains to the cases?!
(Maybe i didn?t get that right, english isn?t my mother tongue...)