KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX450F / KX250F => Topic started by: royceymon@hotmail.co.uk on December 08, 2010, 08:56:18 AM
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Heres some photos of the jan de groot engine for dutchie , frames on hold until i get the frame rails from jerry at jfab!
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Thanks Roy :-D
Great to see how they find small things to improve a engine.
Whats that on the carb??
Dutchie
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Hi Dutchie
hope all is good with your little girl ,will post a pic of my liitle girl on her pw50 (now a 21yr old ) havnt got a scooby what the bits on the carb are or how the burn pattern on the piston formed , havnt been able to replicate it since ,trouble is with poor old jan deceased dont know who would know ,or what the material is on the clutch cover,kips covers and the water pump im guesing magnesium??
a tester for kx riders forum .piston burn pattern .carb bits .material of covers any ideas guys????
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Royce,
My guess on the carb setup is a powerjet circuit, clutch cover setup Magnesium, pattern on the piston showing transfers are balanced (noticed it had a window mod too), gear position sensor on crankcase to alter timing, which leads me to the question about the flywheel on there (need some pics posted up :-D) also what type of ignition setup (CDI, Coil, Stator) as it surely has to be Factory Kawi to work with the Gear Sensor. It appears that you truly have the "Real Deal" that only very priviledged eyes have seen. Definetly want to see more pics of this motor & more info on the cylinder, head, pipe etc..
Thanks for Sharing!
DoldGuy
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That looks like a 250 motor. The gear selector looks like for a road bike motor. The flywheel looks like a 250 flywheel too. The burn patterns looks alittle on the fat side put does look good.
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that ignition cover is a 250, it says stroke 72mm on the clutch arm, the 500 is 86mm.
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In my overly excited way, I ASS U ME D it was a K5 motor but after Kaw Rider posted I also noticed the ignition cover (250) and quickly realized it was not a K5 motor & the flywheel is just that a 250 flywheel. I am still very curious of the gear sensor & how it ties in to the ignition as I have never seen one on the Kawis (Honda used to always use them back in the day). Also curious on the clutch cover setup as the Factory Bikes would run the mag covers (Just for weight? Extra Plates in the Basket?).
Royce, are there any numbers on the cases to determine what model year it is? Also can you post pics of the carb showing the Air Intake side?
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sorry to disapoint guys its a 2003 kx250 grand prix engine not 500 , i will post more pictures of the bits requested all the kips covers a mag too and the water pump.
i would have to look at the engine number if i remember its stamped 8 or something similar ,not a full number though saying that it shows no signs of sanding or bodging in any way ,ill also photo the ignition module.
it came from someone i know (hardcore racing) uk so i know its real and not some tuned up "special" i only got it by luck!! i couldnt replicate the burn pattern ,but it wasnt running as lean as i would like when its in the af frame ill spend some time getting the jetting on the money
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Royce,
After looking some more at the pics, I also noticed that it is a single ring piston (2003 motors were dual rings) which I will ASS U ME again that this is the Flat Top piston and would need a different head design on that. Have you changed the piston?
DoldGuy
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yep well spotted ! the motor came with 3 spare pistons all single ring ,its a jan de groot forged piston will accept standard kawasaki ring i was told when i run out i could get wiseco to make some/match . ive got a twin ring old wiseco piston from my old standard kx 250 which is similar ( 2 ring ) but machined different from the jan de groot one ! flywheel photo enclosed
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sorry duh forgot ive put the flywheel already on !!
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thats the works clutch arm too. i know that from seeing 1 of kurt Nicols bikes. that motor is an awsome find i think you are the envy of this site right now
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im in the process of trying to find who was working with jan de groot in 2003 to understand what the carb was all about and what the number engraved on the crank meens, the flywheel deosnt look my old standard one on my old standard engine, not sure if its wieghted or not?
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some photos of the serial number 001 !! the cooling hose has vibrated over the number some marks on the left hand side looks like 00 cant see any signs off forgery ive used some special dye from work no signs of anything untoward , i know its an authentic engine from were it came from
cdi unit reads 21119277-055eu 5-071000-131 2c67
loom reads 26030250-055c its got wrote on what looks like either tp3/5 or tps its also got a name on the side of the engine need some help from dutchie on that one. more to follow
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Looks like I'm just in time :-D
?5th | World Championship 250cc | Kawasaki | Kenneth Gundersen
http://www.xtrig.de/index.php?lang=EN&page=kawa_racing_team (http://www.xtrig.de/index.php?lang=EN&page=kawa_racing_team)
Looks like a engine from Kenneth Gundersen if look at your last picture.
PS Roy my litlle girl is doing fine
Dutch
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requesting pictures of intake ports. transfer tunnles, etc...
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thanks dutchie your a life saver , makes sense now initials T.G can only be his engine ,there is also some very faint white paint pen initail again with T.G, id love to know what the engraving on the crank means !
motorrad i will try and get some shots of the transfers etc sometime this week , luckily its still stripped down at the mo , i must admit i was a little disapointed with the barrel it doesn't look realy ported out , it came in one lump so i guess it was what they run .mind you you wouldnt want any more power its a bit potent as is , i dont intent to do anything to it ,i think it would spoil the authentisity of it!!
photos of carb intake and magnesium pump
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hi motorrad photos of the ports etc ,will do in 2 batches as i cant post too much at once regards jerry h
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more engine etc shots
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I am still very curious of the gear sensor & how it ties in to the ignition as I have never seen one on the Kawis (Honda used to always use them back in the day).
All the Kawi 4t run the gear selector, they can alter the timing based on gear selection, they also increase the idle when in gear, this I believe was to help prevent stalling.
Interestingly, in 03 the 250 came with the PWK with power jet and TPS. but in this case they used an old stlye Kehin carb and modded wtih power jets external, there is probably jets under the brass screws. this piston doesn't look like the flat top pistons I've ran, it appears from the picture that it has some crown to it. The cylinder does not look as though it was ported, the SR designation on the Crank indicates that it was a factory race bike, they used to have the SR as in SR250, these were the real works bikes, the US hasn't had the full on works bike for years, of course even sayiing that they have suspension that cost more than my house.
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sorry the shots are not that good ,from what i can see the transfers had been cleaned up a bit and the internals looked as if they had been vapor blasted leaving a very fine sheen ,on the kips side i would have to put a standard set against the de groot stuff to see if there was much difference, the piston is domed its not wiseco and def not standard piston , i would dearly love to find out who worked on this engine when gunderstorm (think thats the correct spelling) was riding it! to find out the true spec and story behind it
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sorry guys kenneth gundersen
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kawasaki works piston V wiseco standard
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ive started a monster!! started the chop out today , made a jig to hold the frame whilst setting up ,perhaps a bit over the top but were going to use lazers to make sure its all central .perhaps im being a bit anal about it dont know whether any of you other guys made a jig ,when i made the first cut on the main down tube it opened up and moved slightly over to one side but marginal .dont know how im gonna get the rad mount on the left hand side sorted as you can see more main tubes gonna have to come off ...it seems to be a very "snug fit" hours and hours to go ,did about 5 hours today and didnt seem to achieve much although saying that i redid the swing arm spacers down from 17.5 to 17mm gonna be a long haul!!!!!
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did some more today ,forgot the camera duh, cleaned out the frame from old stuff chopped off a bit more main tube cut the y section down sanded sides and front and cleaned inside to refit to down tube ,not long before the tiggin starts , oh and sanded back old top motor mount flushed ready to weld on shortened old one might leave it offset and bend some lazered out new profiles or move over and use straight ones ...does seem the sensible option less agg movin it over..
dont know what to do on the kickstart front might get some of the 25mm ali plate we have water jetted out to make a new kickstart new shape using cad ???
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today couldnt have been any sweeter ,spend all day up cusses gorse practicing with my son ,was a bit cold but the sun came out and it was fast....meanwhile back at the workshop rog was tigging up the frame rails for me , i can tig but rog is the master !! will post some photos tommorow night if i get back from london at a sensible hour!! :-D
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finnaly making some progress , next step welding brace on where frame rails meet down tube to beef up ,mounting brackets for front and bottom engine mounts, top engine mount , get some mounts lazered out . remount rads and cut to suit ,change entry-exit points to suit ...have a rest....
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Finaly making some progress ! engine mounts welded on ,front ,bottom .Top mount from kxf cut off made shorter re-welded on and new plates from frame to head fabbed,spacers for bottom and front engine mounts made on lathe to line up front to rear sprocket.
rhs rad fitts with only very slight mod , left hand well to long not sure to chop off part of bottom and reweld also making whats left bigger to take more fluid ...or get another rhs remove plates on side swop around to make it handed the other way , weld up the additional filler cap hole .
bizzarly my sons rad grill from his 2006 kx125 fits straight on the kxf back to front rad !!
next task working out the flow from kxf hoses and rads to kx250 pump etc set up not sure what the rotation is????
im assuming hot fliud to top of rad colder from the bottom??? sure i saw some diagrams somewhere on this site ?? any ideas guys???
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found the diagram on my favorites from the sweedish gent hopefully full steam ahead only the airboot usual probs to slow me down , not sure how the exhaust is gonna work poss use a 2004 0r 2005 if the 2003 is a bad fit , might cut and tig to suit
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Im using the 03 motor and the pipe comes close but still clears. One guy in the 500 section used the radiator off of a yz80 for the left side. said it fit right on the bike.
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fitted a now piston and ring on my boys kx125 2006 , i put the left hand rad on the hybrid and it fits well , just need to find a kx125 rad now!! nothing on ebay might sell the standard lhs rad from the kxf250 (2008)donor bike to get some funds .might have to get a new one ,its holding the build up at the mo!!!
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found a guy on mxtrax breaking a 2005 kx125 got the rads heading my way should have by weekend hopefully !! got a pic of the 125 rad in situ, would like to hear it up and running by the end of may!!
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got the rads in, got the temporary hose plan routed out , just need to put balance pipe on top of the rads to avoid air locks , getting the last rad mount tacked on , coil mounts then built the bike up .yokes ,forks,swing arm etc etc ,got an hgs pipe on the way slowly gettin there!!!
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Looking good..
Nice routing on the hoses..
Have to ask... what are those Nifty alum Y-pipe's off of??
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one is from my 2007 kxf250 , replaced all the hoses with samco silicone ones the piece that replaces the Y piece is in one section on the samco set ...very nice! the other is from the donor kxf250 rolling chassis.
the blue joiner is a thermo plastic one i used in an emergency when my old kx250 split a hose ..its a realy tight fit!!
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*&@~# crap!!! one step forward two back !! had to scrap the hose routing and kxf rhs rad , got an hgs pipe today doesnt clear the rad so gonna have to use both the kx125 rads will work fine but ive cut down one of the pipes i now need !!!
Moral of the story is dont start until you have all the bits it doesnt always work the way you want it to!!! ho hum
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not a great deal happening ,tigged the coil mounts on , made a brace for the front wishbone to tig on . waiting on a reply for some samco hoses to suit,sorting out a deal on a silencer and new airbox ( the kxf one a bit mullered ) then its the big assembly ..... still got to get new plastics and danger uk graphics :-D
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spent the whole day assembling!! and polishing still shy on a few bits , front wheel spacers ,clutch cable,rear disc,silencer,racebikebitz still hasnt got back to me on the samco hoses will post photos 2moz night.....getting there slowly but surely
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spent the last two days generaly fidling about got quite a bit done , re-done the engine spacers wasnt quite bang on just realy waiting on parts now not looking forward the the airbox , having to bend the rear brake lever and move the spring locating pin back as its hitting the clutch cover all in all a stressy weekend ! :-P
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Looking VERY GOOD sir, I really like the pipe. I too hate it when things dont go along with the way I had them planned out. With this economy, I am finding it hard to stay focused on the BEAST. However it looks like you are doing a fine job and clicking right along.
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sylvester , i salute anybody whos building or has built a hybrid when you do it ,its no way as easy as it first seemed .i kinda forgot all the liitle details like the rear brake pedal ,front mudguard i had to cut down as i added an extra plate on the y piece of the frame etc etc bit of learning by mistakes i think , i can only begin to emagine how the guy with the kx500 hybrid who destroyed the motor and the frame must be soul destoying!!! im getting a bit sressed now gagging to fire it up .....still not looking forward to the airbox syndrome. :roll:
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ooh eer the standard clutch cables too short so is the throttle cable gonna have to get some bespoke ones from venhill, yet another setback ! on a positve note found an hgs silencer on ebay :-D the last bbuild bits draggin somewhat, not sure if im gonna use danger uk for graphics yet ,think ill ask the facebook mx mates.
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got the samco hose at the weekend , fitted those babys , zeta wheel spacers also turned up , but the front rims mullered and have to have a new one !! the hgs silencer from ebay turned up today i think its from an 98-99 the mountings are offset but nay probs as i was going to refit anyway ...a bargain for ?45 in very good condition as well!!
starting to look like a bike at last!!
im going to make a reed spacer as alot of people seem to ,got the airboot at last a 98 to 2002 i believe , will fit ok with the reed spacer!!
#
not long now
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those samco hoses look sick . i might want to buy a set for myself
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looking better every day! finaly got the front end sorted , new sun pro rim six new spokes zeta wheel spacers , changed the disc to the larger motomaster one and the adaptor .
waiting on clutch cable the kxf one fits well , the standard kx250 was too short , throttle assem to come , im making a reed spacer at the moment hope to finnish it of this weekend , still need chain ,newfront sprocket, newset of ufo plastics and custom graphics, radgrills and just the airbox to sort...
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sorry sm pro rim not sun.....itsgetting late!!!
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Hey Roy,
The unfortunate events of the last outing appear not to be able to keep you from making progress on your bike.
"You Can't keep a Good Man Down" :lol:
Looking forward to the next update. :-D
Take Care!
Tuck-O \o/
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made reed spacer ,fitted , cut off old mounts on silencer , tacked on to try. cut off mounts on exhaust re welded on rear , marked front , having to make kxf clutch cable inner 20mm longer, rectifier arrived airbox on to mark for ali adaptor plate , tigged and polished silencer (photo to come) .
waiting for throttle assem,rubber seal for silencer ,marked rear brake lever gonna have to heat and put a dog leg in and lathe up a 3mm spacer to suit ,need to tig on tapped block to frame for front exhaust mount not much to do now ...apart from new plastics and custom graphics!! 8-)
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just finnished the adaptors for the airbox , will post pics later today , sold my boys kx125 deposit payed being picked up next w/end .
last little niggly things to do assemble airbox , fit kill switch,weld on last exhaust bracket , tap and tig mounting bracket for exhaust to frame , purchase set of ufo plastics , just designing graphics based loosly on the attached set, corby kawasaki instead of cornwall and other tweeks no 901 etc .
if any body needs templates for kx250 to kxf250 airbox using 99-2002 airboot i can help there!!! laters
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Very Nice RC!
I think you are gonna be surprised with the 38 airstryker and carb spacer. I ran that for quite a while before
swapping things around to the 39 and no spacer.
I bet you only need two gears, 2nd for starts and third for everything else!
Don't be surprised if you need to jet to what seems crazy lean. The last jetting I had in mine was a 38 pilot and 162 main n82m on the 2nd clip. (I wanted to get a needle richer in the top end but no $'s)
My 39 and no spacer is 168 50 n82m 3rd clip
Now granted I'm not racing, and ride between 3500' and 6000' but the smaller carb has so much more velocity it draws lots of fuel.
There's a 500 site for team Red that have a few more singletrackers running the 38 and they can
confirm the smaller jets.
Tuck\o/
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Hi Tuck , didnt have any option on the carb spacer , had to move the carb back to fit the air boot hence the spacer . i believe its ment to add torque lower down but we will see ! the carb isnt standard i would have to look to see what size it is i think the main jet is larger than you think i cant remember off the top of my head what size it was but i dropped a size as it always was a bit rich i will have a look 2moz . dont forget its only a 250!!
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Hi Tuck and all
checked out the carb 168 main , 52 pilot, No 7 slide, needle No n0ze ! clip position in the middle 39mm carb No G202 AKAM
finnaly finnished the painfull airboot cursed job very near completion will be on the track in about two weeks if all go well !! :-D
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airbox sandwich ! only back brake lever to sort ,last exhaust mount to do and order graphics .....sooo close
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Cheers RC,
Smart looking bike my friend, I'm sorry, totally forgot I was looking at a 250 :|
You kept saying how bad that airboot was gonna be, however you appeared to have nailed it first time around.
If the carb spacer mucks up your top end, would it be possible to add the spacer in "The Sandwich"?
( instead of between the carb and reed) I know it sounds easy for me to say, hard for you to cut...
Looking Good!
Tuck-O \o/
P.S. How has that hand healed up? it looked pretty bad...
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what airboot did you use?
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steve, i used a 99-2002 airboot fitted realy well but had to use a reed spacer or the carb was too far forward .templates available if required.
tuck im hoping the reed spacer should not make that much difference on the top end , havnt heard otherwise only that it makes better low down-mid power . good news had it running for the first time yesterday was a git to start put lots of 2t oil in the bore/mains as it was idle for some time seems to run well picks up lovely no hesitation at all ,revs out good should be a flyer, sorting out the graphics as we speak hopefully plastics by the end of the week, just a few very minor bits to finnish the project :-D
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Hi Tuck sorry forgot , the thumbs ok havnt rode since i came off , been concentrating on the hybrid , sold my boys 125 and now hes on my 250f had first ride yesterday and loved it , going to have to get a heavier wieght spring as hes a large lad at 16 , im only 13 stone with all the gear on hes much more .
unfortunatley i cant space from the airbox (exterior side forward) as the collets on the airfilter cage are too short to accept a 10mm spacer as well + the airboot already is up against the shock, will have to keep an eye on that!! thankfully not dead tight shouldnt chaiffe its way through!
will post some pics as soon as thers some progress!
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No worries about catching up with me mate, I'll be here!
Thanks for taking the time to post the picc's and solutions. You never know who will be in the same spot.
Take Care!
Tuck-O \o/
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got my graphics design come through today from danger uk, ordering up should all be done for next weekend , for its maiden flight hopefully wont have to adjust anything too much
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all ready ...only waiting on graphics and plastics , been a long road getting there.
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Speechless... just speechless :-o :-o good job!
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Well Done.! :-D
How does she run!? How about some wheelie pics! :lol:
Enjoy the Ride, 8-)
Tuck\o/
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thanks guys , still not complete until i have the new graphics on , i used my old standard plastics from my 2007 kxf, should be here any day if im up cusses this sunday will try and get some "airtime" shots uploaded
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finaly done ! what a long haul,hopfully the weathers kind tommorow but its not looking too good for tracks to be open ,might have to wait another week :|
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Dam that looks great Roy!!!!!!!!!!!
Can only hope mine looks as good as your's some day.
Dutchie
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Beautiful!!! Just beautiful
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HELL its faster than i thought it would be nearly looped a few times on the first few laps over some jumps and over shot a lot of corners forgot there is no engine braking what so ever compaired with the fourbanger , glad i changed the main from 170 to168 running realy crisp perfect plug colour well chuffed handles realy well gos like a bullet realy realy have to be switched on almost lost it a few times !!
the day was spoiled though by the exhaust snapping just at the point where the stinger is welded onto the expansion box , had a solid mount on the rear , the bolt came loose not sure if that was the cause or lack of rubber mount , gonna fit one anyway and weld and brace that part!
pictures to follow 8-)
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something to consider, the 450 swingarm is a bit longer, so if your having issues with it rearing up consider a 450 swingarm.
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the rearing up is due to a brand new rear tyre and my throttle hand being a bit eager! wouldnt use the longer swing arm and sacrifice the turning ability , but thanks anyway . i am loving the extra bhps clutching out of the corners is heaven ,real kick in the pants :-D
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im dying to see a vid roycey hint hint :wink:
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the "vid" will appear as soon as me and my boy go halves on a helmet cam or if we can get somebody to get on the video camera , should be next weekend hopefully !!!
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the contour helmet cam arrived today , should be up and running next weekend, not sure if it will have to go on youtube or something else!! :roll:
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Cool !
I know KX Pegger also uses the Contour site.
Looking forward the vid,
Tuck-O \o/
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I have a contour HD also, I had trouble with it cutting off on it's own when I first got it. Contacted them, they sent
a newer,thicker battery and it seemed to have fixed the prob. Here is a vid taken with mine.
http://youtu.be/bZG79F0LOaQ (http://youtu.be/bZG79F0LOaQ)
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big woods !! could get well lost in there , gaggin to ride the smoker again , and check out the helmet cam....
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UPDATE!!
rode the monster for the first time properly saturday at rocketworld , first corner straight over the berm ( no fourbanger engine braking ) can only be described as a tyre shreader ,stupid quick ,have to brake hard very quick after cracking it open as you soon run out of track very quickly !! handles like a dream corners realy well .
had the helmet cam on all day swopping between me boy , his friend and me...only to find out 2gig memory card lasts no time what-so-ever :-( so the footage i was going to put on never happened!!! got a 16 gig card out sunday or track day at rocketworld 23rd ....cant wait :-D
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Rode at rocketworld today, was a private hire trackday ,loads of airtime track was mint ,got some footage on the contour gps of me raggin the smoker round , soon as ive uploaded it ill put the link on. :-D
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still tyin to work out how to edit the helmet cam footage its too large to download i think, bout 15 mins worth , had a good scap with a mate on a cr250 smoker in it!!! boom
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quite frustrated at the mo , got 15mins of helmet cam footage on the beast racing a cr250 smoker ,cant get it on youtube!!!
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latest update ,...friend sean on the cr250 smoker broke his arm highsiding!!! got a few contour helmet cam vids of the hybrid but still cant get on youtube , hopefully a friend is going to sort it out sos i can put on shortly!!!! :roll:
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still no luck with the helmet cam , now have far too much footage of the smoker ,just cant get it on the net, going to try my boys laptop failing that my friends an gaming/video editor who says he can shrink it down to down load on youtube ....these things are sent to try us!!!... bit like honda realy
:roll:
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any luck on the vid? Been waiting in anticipation.... :-o
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any luck on the vid? Been waiting in anticipation.... :-o
sorry my life revolves around doing 65 to 70 hr weeks if im not working im riding or working on the bikes , my computers so old it wont run the contour im looking to download some stuff recomended by contour to sort the problem , or try and catch up with my mate to shrink the files down so i can download on youtube .
believe me i am very frustrated i cant stick them on so you can hear the smoker sing!! brraaap :-(
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aaarrrgghhh still waiting for my mate to sort the video to go on youtube ,got some titanium coming for free!! planning on main engine bolts ,the pin on the rear brake lever to master cylinder tryng to get some 3mm for the triangle engine top mounts and the last of the three bolts on there, might even make a main pin for the rear brake (where the two orings go on) if i can get the right diameter material
poss looking at nut for rear axle and washer ,swing arm nut and washer,front axle nut .
already have engine spacers in ali poss might make in Ti the swing arm spacers are steel and im going to make them in Ti
most of the fixings will all be Ti then max lightness !!! 8-)
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hopefully two shots of me on the kx up cusses
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj590/Jerry-Howell/cusses98.jpg
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj590/Jerry-Howell/cusses97.jpg
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at last!!!!!!! its not mega good quality but the only way i could get a vid of me and the hybrid ,it was taken up cusses ,not very busy that day so got loads of rides ,this was the last session of the day bit tired but still had a blast!!
http://youtu.be/TEGNGaa7rdM
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the worst case cenario happened ,must have had a crack in the downtube i didnt notice ,i had a lot of hard landings during the day didnt notice any difference in the handling in the last session of the day , i was chasing a danger uk rider had a heavy landing destroyed the frame ,bikes a write off engines fine thankfully the only good thing to come out of it
http://youtu.be/SOmlmyXW2y8
check out the vid about 2.45 in ,photo to follow!!
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:-o that sucks bro!.. are you planning to build another one?
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i dont do things by half (pardon the pun!)
http://s1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj590/Jerry-Howell/?action=view¤t=SNV31962.jpg
http://s1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj590/Jerry-Howell/?action=view¤t=SNV31961.jpg
getting a new frame could be a long time not riding ,prob selling the jan de groot engine and parts from whats left ,selling the buell and buying either kxf450 2011 or 2012 kxf250 same year or 2008 with big bore kit the 250f is just not quick enough standard or the last option ktm 350 unfortunatley an incredible package but not a kawasaki what a dilema!!
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Does that mean your '03 KX250 is long gone/sold?
I also gotta ask: was your AF conversion frame heat treated after welding? Are most of the A/F conversions on this board heat treated after welding?
My sympathies on your cracked KX...especially after all the work you put into it!