KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: gowen on April 25, 2004, 04:24:46 PM
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Well, I've never been more happy with the 5hunny, she runs like a bat from hell and nothing is touching her. I'm using Spirits from BP (100octane), I also use C12 when available. Runs great! No surging or pinging (MUCH with 100 BP, none with C12).
Here is my complant, when trail riding and not running WFO all the time, it smokes like crazy! Usally 0-1/4 throttle , sometimes 1/4-1/2. Rarely wideopen. Can somebody post what has helped for them, as in, sea level running in 60-90 degree weather. It just feels mushy in the low-end, as in smokeing and just popping. I really wish I could just hire somebody to jet it correctly.
Aside from smoking, it runs great! Eats tires BAD, but runs great!
Thanks guys!
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I'm suffering from similar issues except mine is real clean on top. I be watching this post intently.
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Starting Point (http://www.pitbull-racing.com/jetting.html)
You guys EVER gonna figure out the search function at the top of the forums? :lol:
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Starting Point (http://www.pitbull-racing.com/jetting.html)
You guys EVER gonna figure out the search function at the top of the forums? :lol:
The search function is a wonderful tool and the jetting chart is great. But neither have helped and I like to keep the experts on their toes. :!:
I have searched and found excellent information but not complete information just pieces here and there. As far as the chart goes, it's only a starting point and I'm past that point but only because of the excellent information attained here.
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Ok then, here goes...
If you're lean on top go to the next size main jet. I use a 178 @ ~ 2000' above sea level.
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Starting Point (http://www.pitbull-racing.com/jetting.html)
You guys EVER gonna figure out the search function at the top of the forums? :lol:
Paul, I'm sorry if I keep posting the same ol' same ol'. The truth is, I do use the search button and I use it often. I understand the jetting chart and use it has a VERY useful reference. I have posted in the past that I had issues and I could have, I guess, just added to the previous post from eariler this year. But, since I'm having, supposely, new problems, I thought I'd make a new post. If it is a problem, please delete this post, I already tried to find a delete icon, didn't find it.
As far as what I found searching. I seem to have RICH jetting issues. But, I (for one), don't know how to test the crank pressure. I don't think it is leaking, as I am not losing oil. But, I'd hope not, if the magneto side is leaking it would be running extremely lean. So, if it was a crank leak, doubtful, it would be on the oil side. Which I am hoping is not an issue.
Just came back from riding this summer and noticed that the bike smokes alot after trail riding, runs great up high, but seems to have some blubber. Well, Here is what I have. I am running a 45 Pilot and a 160 main jet. I am in the middle with the niedle. I have a #7 slider which is showing no damage. Also am at a 2nd turn on the air screw.
I did notice some oil in the air box inside the filter, as it seems it may have too much air filter oil. But, this is pretty cosistant. I am curious why it feels sooo rich when I have the carb almost crazy lean. I have a 52 pilot, but I feel this could just make more smoke and spooge.
I have not cared about it until now, I feel it is being a power rob as it does not respond well and does NOT idle very well and smokes ALOT.
Thanks
EDIT:
Thinking about yesterday: I thought about how the bike rides, it is very "blubbery" in the low-end, bearly idles, and smokes alot when the gas is goosed. The mid-range is clean, no smoke and on through the top-end. Very strong pull, no noticeable pings (on race fuel). I'm guessing I am lean, as without it (race fuel 100bp or vp c12) it pings and surges.
Drawing a chart of what I have: What is stock: and what the jetting chart recommends:
Assuming: Sea Level and 79-100 degrees
|My Bike|Stock|Jetting Chart|
Main Jet: |160|168|165|
Slide Cutaway: |7|7|?| <-- assuming 7
Jet Needle: |N82M|N82M|?| <-- assuming stock (N82M)
Needle Position: |3|3|3|
Pilot Jet: |45|60|58|
Air Screw: |2.0|1.5|1.5|
Float Height: |Unknown|15-17mm|Unknown| <-- I need help in this area
From the looks I feel lean. I just bumped my Pilot from a 45 to 52, even though I feel rich down low, have yet to test. Will test when I can get out of work and the rain quits. I would like to also bump the main jet to a 165 and see how that works. The air screw does not help at all, I keep at 2.0. I would like to measure the float height. Is the stock numbers ok? I pulled them from my service manual. How can I test it? They are showing a special tool, is there another way? I am maybe thinking this is the problem :idea: but don't quite know how yet.
Here is what I'm running, Boyesen Power reeds, FMF Desert pipe & silencer (powercore), egorr big bore with mid-top porting (520cc 2mm kit).
Sorry about the LOOOOOOOOOONG post, but I was told that I could be losing as much as 10-20hp potental power by having the jetting off. :?:
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When was the last time the carb was torn completely apart and cleaned? I had an issue similar to this and found some Glamis residue in the tubes that the pilot and main jets thread into. If it's been awhile since the carb was cleaned then get some pipe cleaners and some carb cleaner and see what that does for you.
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I got it apart now. I will give it a shot. Do you think by having a 45 Pilot that it was making it a PITA to start cold? :shock:
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Ummm, yeah. :lol:
I got it apart now. I will give it a shot. Do you think by having a 45 Pilot that it was making it a PITA to start cold? :shock:
This is the big bore 520 correct? You maybe looking at a 180 - 182 @ sea level for a main jet.
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If you over-oiled your filter, it'll run rich with lean jets. And some filter oil may have found its way into your carb and gummed something up. Clean your carb out real good like Paul said, and put on a fresh lightly oiled filter just to get eliminate that as a possible cause...Paul's chart is darn close for jetting. 45 pilot is way too small. I'd guess the pilot circuit is clogged and it's sucking gas from somewhere else and loading-up your bottom end. And your reeds are ok, right...?
good luck.
Sharc
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Ummm, yeah. :lol:
I got it apart now. I will give it a shot. Do you think by having a 45 Pilot that it was making it a PITA to start cold? :shock:
This is the big bore 520 correct? You maybe looking at a 180 - 182 @ sea level for a main jet.
:shock: :shock: :shock: My jetting is totally screwed up. I don't know how in hell it got so bad.
It seems powerful in the high-end. Do you think I should jump to a 180 from a 160? I was thinking like a 168. Just a thought.
Thanks
If you over-oiled your filter, it'll run rich with lean jets. And some filter oil may have found its way into your carb and gummed something up. Clean your carb out real good like Paul said, and put on a fresh lightly oiled filter just to get eliminate that as a possible cause...Paul's chart is darn close for jetting. 45 pilot is way too small. I'd guess the pilot circuit is clogged and it's sucking gas from somewhere else and loading-up your bottom end. And your reeds are ok, right...?
good luck.
Sharc
Thanks, I will take the air filter out tonight and give it a shot. I'm assuming that they (reeds) are good, I checked them a few months back and the looked good to me, not bent out or anything like that. One problem other than that I do have often is a nut viberating loseon the head often. It's like a center nut right in front f the spark plug and it spits water out. I'm just assuming this is ok, I just tighten it down. I think I will tear the KX down and inspect everything again this evening.
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This is great information!
Gowen,
Just for reference because this is your post, my bike is setup the same as yours with the exception of the pipe and my issues are with the mid range and topend. As you know it's a 520 also.
It's currently jetted as...
168M
55P
2nd notch
#7 slide
wet air filter
1 1/4 turns out on the air.
14mm-16mm floats
Seems rich as heck. First time I rode it after putting it back together ran great midway and up. The next day lousy. Could be that the bike was sucking oil from the filter and making it rich. It could be that I'm really too lean now.
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Kawdude, are you running at sea level? I'm going to buy a 168 main jet and have the dealership set the float height today. I'm going to try the main jet (168) and see how that effects the top-end. I have a feeling I'm lean but is running great, just one of those things I worry excessive about. I have a 52 pilot and am hoping it will help starting the bike. I hate to jump from a 160 to a 168 and screw the top-end up. But, I can always change back. I am going to clean the carb out and see how this hopefully works. I appreciate the input.
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I'm in Illinois. So I'm guessing that I'm at 500-1000ft. I'm going to drop the clip to the bottem and see what changes. Becareful with the 52...letting off the gas on a hot piston with restricted amount of gas is a bad thing. Someone made the comment that 52 may be too lean. Let us know what happens. I'm going to make my changes this weekend if the weathers ok and will do the same.
What's your plug look like?
I looked up my elevation...750ft.
Have you seen this link?
http://justkdx.dirtrider.net/carbtuning.html
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Well, I just got back inside from the garage, and I did go ahead with a 170 Main Jet, also installed the 52 pilot. I have no other pilot jet, I will order a 55 tomarrow. As far as idling, it now does not idle anymore after changing the jets.
Ok, on to riding, I did manage to hit a few powerlines before the darkness took over. Here is what I came up with:
The top-end has improved alot! More hit and power. The mid range has felt like it weekened. The lower range feels not that great. I'd say bad. But, aside from that, once it is hot, it flies with WOT. But, hoping to fix the idling, I have the carb in cleaner. Hoping that it will fix any issues.
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Have you seen this link?
http://justkdx.dirtrider.net/carbtuning.html
Wow, that's some good stuff, what is funny, I used to basicly hoard that information from justkdx and dirtrider. I had, awhile back a '87 KDX200, then purchased a '95 kdx200, and fallowed the tuning information religiously. Good stuff and information, thanks!
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Pull the needle out an check which one is in there. You might be running the leaner needle, if so get a stock one. Either way try moving the needle higher in the circlip. The pilot is going to effect the idle, the needle the mid-range the main mid and top. Keep increasing the main until it starts to falter then drop it one. The 58 main, some needle work and a cleaning and I'll bet that thing will be awesome ;)
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Cool! I think I'll follow your lead on the 170M. In reading your post it sounds like initially you thought it was rich but by adding the 170 you've made it richer so I'll assume that now you're thinking it was originally to lean??? That may be my issue as well. When riding and using the new main was the engine smooth midway and up? Paul's comment above regarding the 180m jet surprised the heck out me...seems huge. However, he's the expert and his comments are always worth noting.
Mine did not idle with the original 58p but when I installed the 55p I could get it to idle after screwing with the air screw. I'm not saying it idles well though!
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Keep increasing the main until it starts to falter
Paul, can you describe term falter? I understand the definition but what will the engine do when it "falters"? Are there any other tell-tales signs of the engine faltering? I'm asking just to be clear. I do understand that a ~1" stream of mix shooting out the silencer would be bad and past "faltering"!!!
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Hey Kawdude...I'll buy your KX from you for $100 bucks. hehehe
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You'll notice a drop in power when it gets to be too much, from there just back it down one. a 180 is what I run at the dunes and my brother in laws CR550 (bored 500) runs a 185M @ the dunes.
Keep increasing the main until it starts to falter
Paul, can you describe term falter? I understand the definition but what will the engine do when it "falters"? Are there any other tell-tales signs of the engine faltering? I'm asking just to be clear. I do understand that a ~1" stream of mix shooting out the silencer would be bad and past "faltering"!!!
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Kawdude, I did not really have problems in the high-end, it would just load up in the low. That is why I'm suprised that changing the main up 10 notches has made such a diffrence. I will make more runs after work (6pm) and take the bike out for more tests. I moved up to a 52 pilot and can not get it to idle, even after screwing with the air screw. But, last night I dipped the carb for a few hours and cleaned it off, so it's looking new now and used compressed air to blow the holes clean (main/pilot/ect. ect.), I will fire it up and try to get an idle tonight, it so (hopefully), I'm hoping to find it lean and try to richen it up, maybe a 55-58 or something like that, but right now, I'm feeling rich at a 52.
As far as the main, I'm getting awesome results with the 170. I will purchase some larger jets and hopefully find the median. I do not to alot of WOT runs, like the desert, but am thinking that I could always richen it a bit. I did measure the float height according to clymer, but I'm a bit confused. I am reading about 22mm. Isn't clymer talking about 15-17mm. Which has me confused. If I raise the float, that richens it up. I may also be reading the float wrong, you turn the carb upside downwards? or do you let it rest in the needle without pushing the little springy thing in, am I correct? That is where I measured it. But, if the float needs to be fully resting in the needle, then I did it wrong. But, it looks like I'm seriously lean. But, I was complaining about so much smoke and black plugs.. :?:
Thanks all your help, I'm hoping to get this thing running good! <--I had no motivation until I killed most the vibes with the bars and solid mounts! now, it's the only bike I want to ride. -->
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Float level...
Check out this link>>>http://www.dirtrider.net/justkdx/floatlevel.html
It should give you the info you seek :!: With what you're saying I thinking that mine very well could be lean. My concern is the rough sound midway and up...could be pinging :shock: . I can't say that mine is loading up down low...it just wouldn't idle.
Be careful dipping your carb. There is an oring shaped like O-O. That can be damaged by certain chemicals. This oring thing is not available for purchase unless you by a carb. I have read posts that talk about ruining this with dipping but they are probably referring to boiling the carb.
Kawdude, I did not really have problems in the high-end, it would just load up in the low. That is why I'm suprised that changing the main up 10 notches has made such a diffrence. I will make more runs after work (6pm) and take the bike out for more tests. I moved up to a 52 pilot and can not get it to idle, even after screwing with the air screw. But, last night I dipped the carb for a few hours and cleaned it off, so it's looking new now and used compressed air to blow the holes clean (main/pilot/ect. ect.), I will fire it up and try to get an idle tonight, it so (hopefully), I'm hoping to find it lean and try to richen it up, maybe a 55-58 or something like that, but right now, I'm feeling rich at a 52.
As far as the main, I'm getting awesome results with the 170. I will purchase some larger jets and hopefully find the median. I do not to alot of WOT runs, like the desert, but am thinking that I could always richen it a bit. I did measure the float height according to clymer, but I'm a bit confused. I am reading about 22mm. Isn't clymer talking about 15-17mm. Which has me confused. If I raise the float, that richens it up. I may also be reading the float wrong, you turn the carb upside downwards? or do you let it rest in the needle without pushing the little springy thing in, am I correct? That is where I measured it. But, if the float needs to be fully resting in the needle, then I did it wrong. But, it looks like I'm seriously lean. But, I was complaining about so much smoke and black plugs.. :?:
Thanks all your help, I'm hoping to get this thing running good! <--I had no motivation until I killed most the vibes with the bars and solid mounts! now, it's the only bike I want to ride. -->
http://
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Hey Kawdude...I'll buy your KX from you for $100 bucks. hehehe
Sure! Send me a blank check and I'll fill it out for you :D
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quote]
Sure! Send me a blank check and I'll fill it out for you
[/quote]
You wait by your mailbox...its comming ! haha, If you are like me, sometimes you think about giving them away when your having trouble
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Well, I just got back from tweaking and tuning it and here goes:
Cleaned the carb, air dried and blew the holes with compressed air. Needless to say, it was mint. Anyway, I still have the 170 and 52 pilot. I decided to give it a shot. No idle! I have the screw on the idle screw all the way in! this is at 2 turns on the air. So, I give it a run........ WOW! Great mid-top end. Jsut what I like, but I really like the bike to idle so I don't have to gas it every time I clutch it. So, I am thinking I am rich down low. Well I'm at a 52 pilot, I unscrew the air screw to 3 turns out. Did nothing. Checked the reeds again, look new. I drop the needle one notch. (lean) and it does not help, helped the mid range but changed the top end. I like it in the center. It did OK with the 45 pilot. I'm confused. If I move to a 58, it will richen the low end up and take more away from the idle. Is something wrong! I opened the holes in the air box wondering if it would lean up. But, did not help.
I did remove the spring from the idle screw and if I screw it absolutely all the way in, it will idle fine! The screw is not worn at the tip and there is no marks on the slider.
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Apon looking at my needle it reads: R1366N???
Is this correct? I ordered a "stock" needle.
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Thinking outloud.
To make the bike idle you need to raise the slide farther than normal by removing the spring. Does this mean there is not enough air getting thru to hold the idle or not enough gas getting thru to hold the idle.
More air needed = leaner setting
More gas needed = richer setting
:?:
I tend to think that you're not getting enough gas when the slide is down. Although, on mine leaning the pilot did make it idle better. However, I did cut a little off the spring...d**nit. I tend to make too many changes at once! :roll:
Does the raising the clip, aka dropping the needle, change the idle properties? I don't think so but changing to a different slide # would either by leaning it or richening it. But that should be necessary. I have a 7 slide also but I think the standard is 6???
I think when the slide is down the needle has not reached the tapered part so when the slide is raised using an extended idle screw you may be reaching the taper and that may = more fuel in the throat. So if you dropped the needle and leaned it out that would = less gas when the slide is down at the idle position.
I like to ramble about s**t that I no nothing about but it is kinda fun!!! However, I do think we're getting somewhere.
I hope the experts read these latest posts!!!
Well, I just got back from tweaking and tuning it and here goes:
Cleaned the carb, air dried and blew the holes with compressed air. Needless to say, it was mint. Anyway, I still have the 170 and 52 pilot. I decided to give it a shot. No idle! I have the screw on the idle screw all the way in! this is at 2 turns on the air. So, I give it a run........ WOW! Great mid-top end. Jsut what I like, but I really like the bike to idle so I don't have to gas it every time I clutch it. So, I am thinking I am rich down low. Well I'm at a 52 pilot, I unscrew the air screw to 3 turns out. Did nothing. Checked the reeds again, look new. I drop the needle one notch. (lean) and it does not help, helped the mid range but changed the top end. I like it in the center. It did OK with the 45 pilot. I'm confused. If I move to a 58, it will richen the low end up and take more away from the idle. Is something wrong! I opened the holes in the air box wondering if it would lean up. But, did not help.
I did remove the spring from the idle screw and if I screw it absolutely all the way in, it will idle fine! The screw is not worn at the tip and there is no marks on the slider.
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This I don't know. That number means nothing to me. Mine is the standard N82xxx one. That may be a Keihin number and not a Kawasaki number.
Info on that number...
http://www.dirtrider.net/justkdx/jetneedles.html
Apon looking at my needle it reads: R1366N???
Is this correct? I ordered a "stock" needle.
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Well, I changed the needle back to the 3rd clip. Which took me all night, as I rounded the head off the screw-like-thingy that holds the needle in. Ended up breaking it in half. Well, thank God I have a spare parts bike!
Anyway, on to whatever. I dropped the needle to the 2nd clip. It helped nothing except I gained more power down low, but it felt like it hurt the top-end by not letting it hit the powerband. :?: So, The needle and the main are good. I'm thinking more on the lines of the idle screw. Kawdude, I believe #7 is stock according to my Clymer Manual. I do happen to have a #6 though. But according to justkdx it will richen it, which from what I'm learning, leaning it out will make it idle. Thinking about that when I'm running out of gas it tends to Rev and rev until it completely runs out of fuel. :idea: So, I am guessing I'm too rich down low. I did conduct an experment. I turned the gas off and let it try to idle.I helped it until it started to empty and low and behold.. It idled! :shock: for a few seconds then tried to did the full rev thingy and I quickly turned the gas back on as not to hurt it. :cry:
So, I'm thinking I need to lean the bottom end. Being at a #7, to lean it, I would need to try a #8. But, as my mid range seems ok and so does the top, I believe the slide does work with the mid range too. The pilot I believe is the main objective to idleing. Being I'm at a 52 and came from a 45. It puffs smoke a bit. But running a 45 pilot, it would idle but very slightly and most of the time would kill within a 10 seconds or so.
Using a 52 and 3 turns out on the air screw (which is the same as 2.5 I think) it would try to puff along, but would die within' a second. So, like I said eariler, it would chug with the spring removed and the slider pushed slightly, but this is going to the 1/8-1/4 throttle and I believe it is lifting the slider to the point of the (taper) where it is using the 1/8 position to idle, I don't think this is good. I believe the pilot should be kicking in even with the slider all the way down. I could be wrong though. So, should I drop the pilot to lets say like a 40 and see if it idles? I hate to sacrifice a nice bike for something as stupid as idleing though. :wink:
Looking at the chart, what is I.M.S.? Should I try to run without a air filter just to idle? That would eliminate any questions as to a oversaturated air filter (which I dont' think it is).
My only options are to try to remove the air screw, kinda allow ALOT of air and/or change the pilot jet to something lower than a 45 as it was still having troubles. I'm just talking about sitting still no riding. What;s your guys thoughts?
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How is your clutch side crankseal? If that is leaking it would explain your super lean pilot jet.
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Hi Paul, I just had it rebuilt, top and bottom last year about this time. I've bearly ridden it maybe about 10 times since then, just starting to put use on it. I'd hope it is not leaking. How can I pressure test the crank. I did just pull the top-end down and inspect everything, looks good, some scaring on the wall of the cylinder, but I'm assuming that came from running some WOT drags with a 160 main. :roll:
What is teh best way to test? I have not noticed any grey in the oil since I changed the water pump seal nor have I seen any loss of oil.
Also, I mix 32:1. I know I will get hounded for running to rich, but I doubt that is the cause for no idle.
I'm quite the curious what the issue is. Should I change carbs? I have another one. But, I doubt it will help.
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32:1 shouldn't keep it from idling, I run mine @ 40:1 - not too much difference. That bike is loosing air down low for some reason, what is your float level at?
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32:1 shouldn't keep it from idling, I run mine @ 40:1 - not too much difference. That bike is loosing air down low for some reason, what is your float level at?
That is something I thought about too. I measured it with a ruler. :oops:
and it is coming to about 22mm-24mm (couldnt' get it to seat quite right because of the ruler, kinda sucks compared to the float height thingy they talk about. :x ) Stock was like 16-18mm. But this is what I'm confused about... Adjusting the float from 22mm to 16mm would richen it? Because that would lift the float making it richer or am I wrong and it is the opposite?
Thanks Paul and Kawdude for your help!! I think I will become a jetting expert after this is all said and done. :wink: Then can be of some help on this board. :D
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Well if the float isn't shutting off the fuel it'll dribble out the tube and in some cases get suck up into the pilot and not idle ;)
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Gotcha, I will take a look at that this evening after work.. (6pm :roll: ) and I will change the float and needle valve thingy out. Maybe we can find a end to this mess... :!:
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Amen....and we can all go riding again.... :wink:
Make sure your jetting is close to stock, especially the pilot, cuz if the float seal was leaking and you fix it, your crazy jetting might grenade your motor....
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Thanks Paul and Kawdude for your help!!
Gowen, thanks for the acknowledgement. I'm just putting out thoughts because I need to go thru the same grueling mess (with idle pops) but now we have a lot of information regarding jetting. Paul (and many others) are the experts. I'm a novice. Now did the clip stay in the 3rd notch or the 2nd?
Regarding the floats...you are measuring from the bowl seat to the bottom (top) of the float. If so that's really low. I think the backasswards way to do it is to just make sure its parallel to the bowl seat. Keep posting your results. It's appreciated!
I would be very pissed if the main seal was leaking. If you do check and it is leaking raise hell with Gorr because I think he outsources the engine rebuilding part. No matter what you still own a great bike and I've really enjoyed following and contributing to this. Can I hire you out to jet my bike??? :o
On a side note, years ago I had a 75 GT80 that would foul plug daily and I thought it was normal to drip black oil out the pipe. Now I know why and I can fix it!!! If I can only find the bike. :shock:
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Well, I just got back from the garage... I have two carburators. So, I took the float from the other carb and adjusted it so the float is real lean. I installed it and took it for a ride. I did put the needle back to the center. Which is the best for the way I like to ride. I think I could stand another step up on the main, but we will see! Well, with the air screw out 2.5 turns, I still could not get an idle. But, hey, it quit smoking 8)... I decided to take the carb out and try to drop the float even more *less fuel* and it still did not idle, but it cleaned the bottom up real nice, but it did not seem to have any power. So, I had a clear bottom end (well from idle to 1/8 was horrible, but 1/8-1/4 was responsive and no smoke). So, being annoyed like I was, I decided to experiment. I removed the seat and the air filter. No idle..... So, I decided to remove the air screw completely! :x No idle. I then took my air compressor and blew air into the airbox while holding the throttle, hoping the forced air would help lean it up..... no idle! :cry: This is with the idle screw in to the point of smashing the spring. So, I then return the 45 pilot and guess what! :!: It idles! So, I return everything back to normal. It idles! But bearly, kinda puff puff puff puff then die. But, that is more than it was! With everything put to normal and the correct float (adjusted so so) it still idled but just like before, kinda slowly and roughly and the smoke returned, which does not bother me much.... So, I decided (since I have two), I would cut the spring like kawdude.. :D Returned the 52 pilot and got an idle. :-) But, you can tell, I believe it is a tapered (gas is coming from the needle instead of the pilot) idle. Kinda at my whits end. I think my next move, over the weekend, is to try to install the other carb (same exact carb, just dirty to hell).
So, back to square 1. I have gained alot of performance from the mid-top. I did make a few runs with the bike together and the idle screw (with half the spring) and it seems to surge a bit now. With the clutch in, kinda like the RPM's are normal then a surge of RPM for a split second. I'm assuming cause it does not like to be idled by anything other than the pilot.
Does anybody else cut the springs besides Kawdude and myself? Is that a normal idle? Or I'm assuming it should really idle even without the idle screw. But, who knows. I have the bike together and I am the same as yesterday just with a shorter spring and some idle. But, still wanting it to be correct. You know, nothing like the real deal instead of a rig.
On the bright side, I was riding my '97 cr250 and took a nice sliding turn and threw the chain into the crank and smashed it.. :D Oh well, I still want the KX to idle. :roll:
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I hate to see you start with the other carb. I think your pretty close but I understand your frustration. The problem has to be in the floats or the float jet. Is the rubber on the needle jet in good shape?
Somewhere I read that if you have to go past 2.5 turns out or less than 1 turn in then either the needle jet or the pilot jet needs to be adjusted up or down.
As far as the spring cutting goes, it is unorthadox but is done often. I'm not saying that its right to do but if it works cool.
Here's a thought...again just a free opinion! Since this bike is 520 that changes what the carb was spec'ed out for by Kaw. Now I think that the carb itself should be able to be adjusted for the cc change of 20cc. But I don't know. A 100cc change I could see that a different carb may be needed. With the change the jetting chart Pitbull has provides is going to be off but still should be close. The 42 pilot that you are running scares the heck out me. I keeping looking for information for you and post what i find.
it seems to surge a bit now
I have the idle surges also. And I believe they are caused by gas getting into the cylinder when it shouldn't. Such as when the slide is down mix is still coming in. Possibly a wore slide. I replaced mine and that didn't help. Deal with the surges later by backing the idle screw out all the way so when you let off on the gas the slide is completely closed. If it still happens there's a problem with the carb or slide.
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Hi Kawdude, I appreciate the info. Yeah, if I close the idle screw, it does not surge. Just with the screw all the way in about. :-) I will keep with this carb, but I was just planning on changing the carbs and keep the same slider, needle, float, jets, ect. ect. just thinking the carb might be toast or busted some how or another. Just wondering, they both are PWK39mm or whatever is stock. :-) So, it should not knock the jetting off I don't think, should remain the same. I hope.
The needle, I did check that, it seems to be working fine, I am not leaking fuel from the carb, except when I lay the sucker on it's side. I still have the 52 in there. But, I'd like to mayme try dropping to like a 30 and see if it idles then, I know I would never ride the bike with it that low. But, just for experiment purposes. I'm thinking maybe I have serious blockage in the carb and the cleaner is not letting it out. Because of the fact that forcing air in the carb, removing the air screw, AND removing the air filter is not helping at all, except maybe a few puffs of life. Adjusting the float did help the smoke, but did not seem to help the idling.
I'm sorry, I know I ramble on, but I really want to overcome this.... I don't want to give up.. I hope you don't mind me rambling on your forum Paul.
As far as riding though, idling is not stoping me. I am going to change the other carb into an experiment carb and keep the one on the bike for riding. :-) just change them out when I want to do serious riding, not trails. I really need a stretch of land to ride on, right now, just got about a short 400ft dash down some powerlines, but hills and smoothness helps alot! Just wheelies through the 3 gears I can run before running out of room.
I think cutting the springs was a good idea, but even though it idles now, it does not idle very long, it puff puffs and then dies eventually, but I can now pull in the clutch without it falling flat on it's face. :lol:
I think I will try to change the carb, using the same jets and see if that helps, if not, I'm going to order the smallest few jets (30-40) and just try to find an idle the right way. I think I will go ahead and order a float adjustment tool, it costs like $19, but it's the shipping that gets me, I just wish I could find one now. I hate to wait for something I want done now.
But, my friend, the testing is yet to be completed.. I will try not to give up. I wish I could test another bike other than my only kx that runs. But, so it goes. Somebody has to do it. I would other bikes that I have, but they all IDLE!!!!!!!!!! grr.. The KX is the only one that has idling problems, I think I will have the crank pressure tested. But unsure how right now.
I won't be able to test tomarrow, but I can saturday evening and all sunday!! :mrgreen: It's actually kinda fun to do this, but sometimes a PITA, especially when you feel at your whitsend. But, I have alot of ideas to try, I will pick up jets tomarrow while out at lunch. I am going to purchase all the jets between 170 and 182. I will also try and pick up the smallest pilots (30? if less will get them, from the smallest to like a 35 or whatever is close. Then will pick up a 55. Just incase I find it is something else, I will never run anything other than idling for testing, not worth my motor. Just incase you guys were thinking I was sacrificing a motor. I'd not worry as much if I knew Eric Gorr had extras, but as we talk, it takes MONTHS for the motors to return.....
Kawdude, keep me posted, I appreciate your input, it helps me think and gives me ideas, I will also let you know as I progress and keep posting as I think. (as long as Paul lets me. :-) )
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Hey man spread the love, that's why I chose the type of forum I run here - SQL database backend type - to store large amounts of information for very long amounts of time ;) . We're here to help each other out, don't worry about how long a post is, we'll git 'er dun :lol:
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gowen,have you done a compression test yet if so what #'s did you get.
also a plug check.just to make sure everthing is ok up top.then to see why it aprears there low vaccum.fresh motors some time screw up or riders.when i do my motors crankcase seal is a priority.
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Hi Younggunnaz, I have yet to do a compression test. I will run one when I can get back to the lab :lol:, er, garage. I did have the entire engine rebuilt at the same time, crankshaft (new), new crank bearings, new crank seals, new trans bearings, new trans seals, new shift forks, ect. ect. But, I understand that sometimes motors just screw up and mainly two strokes. I have to put this on the shelf until tomarrow, being Saturday evening, due to the fact that I have to make a trip to VA in the am to pick up a cusin. Then, be back for work, then I can hit it again. :lol:
Anyway, thanmks again for the inputs. I'm thinking I might have low compression but... :shock: d**n, that baby is hard to kick and it has not changed since I got it. But, who knows.
I had a thought, I was thinking a while back, before I changed the stocker pipe for the FMF, that I was out riding and I had the stock pipe crack right down the front and almost nearly fall apart, with a huge hole in it, it idles and pretty high! without running out of gas, I just remembered that. Maybe I need to check the KIPS operation, I imagine if it is stuck open it would also cause issues down low. I was reading the service manual like a bible last night before I went to bed. SO, I have a few ideas to brew and mix together.
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Gowen - good idea. With all the jetting combos you've tried and strange results it makes sense that something like a stuck KIPS could be the reason. Good luck and nice work on being persistent...!
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Well, sorry it has been abit since the last update, I have been busy, got nailed by a ticket on the way back from VA and have had to entertain my cusin, which we did go riding yesterday. Well, I have not done much but the mods I listed above. But, here is a breif update: Clip (3rd), Main (170), Pilot (52), Needle (stock), Slide (#7), Air Screw (2 screws out), also cut the idle spring to about half to get it to idle. It has rained here alot and is humid as hell. But, I went out anyway, being it was still raining and it was breifly stoping.
It took FOREVER to warm the d**n thing up to where it would actually slide instead of sputter. Well, I don't know if it was humidity or what, but I had NO top-end power. It had a hell of a mid hit, but it would just fall flat on it's face in the top. So, I did decide to do some small drags (2 miles or so), it sputtered on the top real bad and took a while to get in the top and did not have any power when it would make it past. So, because I was not alone, I did not carry the lab tools (main jets ect.ect.), so I decided I may have screwed up the float height, so I took the carb apart at the truck and raised (leaned) the float height, then raised the clip one (2nd notch leaned), also screwed the idle screw out, so ito would not idle, and then rescrewed the pilot to 2nd turn. Did a few top-end runs, it ran like a dream! a huge hit in the top-end. Alot of mid and low, but serious top. Just like i like it. I then hit the trails again, being I had to be with my cusin, he fallowed me so d**n slowly that I was kinda bogging the bike around. Then when I hit the strip again, I had the SAME problem as before, all mid hit, no top-end and some bogging. Extremely rich feeling, and would not let it into the top. But, the power was hiting at the mid instead of the top.
Just a guess, but would this be the spark plug going bad? I have a BR8EIX and it has done great! I'm thinking a fouled plug.. I have been doing extremely stupid crazy stuff lately with the jetting and may have. I have had this plug in this bike for about 10 rides. Maybe needs changing it is seriously black.
Aside from that, then I did not think about the plug. So I removed the PV cover and fired it up and it seems to be working great! When you hit the mid rev, it openes half way, then a full throttle and it pulls all the way open. I'm assuming this is correct. I have the other carb in the carb cleaner to try it, maybe I have a screwed carb. I will first try the jets I just had and settings I had. Give it a shot then find out. Maybe it was the humidity. I can't come to richening it anymore, cause it feels like to is WAAY to rich. This is crazy and I know you guys are tired of hearing my moaning and groaning about it. I am too. I could get used to the power, but I am a sucker for topend hit and it is there, just with a d**n 160 main, 45 pilot and a (3rd needle position).
Can't test more tomarrow, I don't wanna test in the rain anyways and it is CONSTANT rain.. So, it should be clear by tomarrow evening, but will do more work Tuesday. If anybody has anymore input... PLEASE chip in. I will pick up a NEW plug tomarrow. If on Tuesday I get around to going riding and it does still hit at MID and not at the TOP. I will switch back to the origional jetting and just quit moaning and let you guys live a normal life. :-)
But, any input is appreciated. I am willing to try just baout anything.
Thanks!!!
PS: One more thing to add:
The needle I have R1366N from Partsfish.com off the microfiche is 16009B
and the needle N82M from Buykawasaki.com is part # 16009B from the same fiche film. So, I'm assuming they are the same and diffrent manufactures? partsfish.com also recognizes the part # 16009G N82M, while Buykawasaki.com recognizes the part # 16009G for N89B from the same fiche film. Crazy and screwed up. I'm confused now. [/i]
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I don't want to be critical of your tuning but you seem to be trying to change too many things at once. Be patient and tackle one circuit at a time. Your float level for example. Any change here affects the jetting throughout the entire rev range of the engine. If you drop your float level from the stock 16mm to say 18mm, you have just leaned out the entire fuel curve of the engine. How? Carburetors work on air pressure changes. You have atmoshperic pressure on the fuel in the float bowl pushing the fuel up the main jet. You have high velocity air movement over the top which creates a low pressure area above the needle jet/main jet. This is what draws the fuel into the engine. It takes either higher atmosperic pressure or an increase in the velocity of the air entering the carb to push/pull the fuel that extra 2mm. Pretty difficult to control those.
You are ready to jet if:
1. Your float needle is not leaking
2. Your float level is set to stock (constant)
3. Air filter is clean and properly oiled
4. No air leaks(crank seals,reed gaskets,base gasket, or engine side carb. boot)
Start with the main jet. This is 3/4 to full throttle only. Try the next step richer main jet. If performance is the same or worse start leaning it out one step at a time until it just cleans up. Stop. You are done with the main.
Next is the pilot/air screw. Start with 1.5 turns out on the air screw ride the bike and take note of how it runs right off idle(throttle response). Then turn the air screw out 1 full turn(2 1/2 total) and ride it again. Did it get worse or better? If worse go one step richer on your pilot jet. If better go one step leaner on the pilot. Use your air screw as a fine tuning device and a guide to determine what pilot jet you need. Once you get this dialed in then your ready for the mid range (1/4-3/4 throttle)
Start with the stock needle in the middle clip position and ride the bike. Then move the clip down one notch (richer) ride it again taking note of the change in the 1/4-3/4 throttle performance. Better or worse? If better, continue to the next lower position until performance suffers then go back to the last "clean" position. If worse move the clip up on the needle(leaner) until the bike runs clean.
Sorry about the book here, but try it one circiut at a time. This should get you very close. There is always fine tuning with slide cutaways,different needles, and float levels if needed later for specific issues.
John
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Thats good info from Twist a grip.I have to admit I got lost on most of your post,to many things going on at once.
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Have a question, when idling, when I twist the throttle 1/8-1/4 should I get a clean rev through? In general I know this is the case, but I'm talking about the KX500, I've neverheard another one run. So, I'm having questions about how it SHOULD run. I'm having problems with it just chokeing and puffing down low. Riding or idling at 1/8-1/4 throttle opening. I feel that using a 170 on the main is pretty decent, no smoke, surges, or studdering (i don't think). But, I need to work on the 1/8-1/4. That is where I'm getting bad responce if any.
It just chugs and puffs. No throttle responce down low, from 1/2-3/4 it is good, and from 3/4-WOT it is powerful. Like Kawdude, I have no lowend responce. I get your suggestions, so, I'm assuming my issue is NOT jetting? As a 45 pilot does NOT idle and is not much better about responce as the 52 pilot.
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Mine does not chug at that throttle position. I just did this so it's fresh in my mind...At idle and in neutral I snapped the throttle. No hesitation what so ever very quick response. Reminded me of a 250. This response on mine is different since I rebuilt the bike. Before it was sluggish.
Also, My problem seems to be 1/2 and above. Could be lean, could be rich...hell i don't know.
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Try this: Warm up the bike and hold the throttle to keep the RPM to where you think it should be idling. Reach down and SLOWLY, gradually pull out the choke knob. If the idle starts to go up you are lean on the pilot. If it starts to die out with only the slightest of movement you might be too rich. Which reminds me of another possibility. You might want to check the rubber seat surface of the choke assembly for damage as this would cause a slight rich condition.
John
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Hi John, I just tried the choke deal (pulling the choke), but it just died. So, I just purchased a new choke, I will try that! Thanks.. I did go riding this evening before reading your post. It seems to ride fine until it is warmed up, then after it gets hot or I ride for about 10 minutes, the bike will not rev past the mid section, it can not achive the full throttle rev, no power up top, just mid power. I just checked the reeds again, look fine. Compression is fine. I will try the choke, I appreciate the input.
Ahh, I can't hold back, I'm headed out now to check the choke, I hope the neighbors don't mind a bit of noise at 11:30. :shock: I am curious about this..
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Well, here comes my resigination to this thread. I have tried everything everybody has suggested and nothing is working. Tested the stator,e ct.e ct. I seem to be out of ideas and so does everybody else. So, I will drop the KX at the shop tomarrow. Sorry guys, I am at my whitsend and have run out of ideas.
Thanks for the help guys!!!!!!! I appreciate it alot.
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If it does go to the shop let us know what they do. I'm sorry the configurations haven't worked.
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You can count on that Kawdude, I appreciate your input and help you have given me, maybe if I ever venture up your way, we can ride. :-)
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It shouldn't be so d**n difficult. Change this to get this effect, change that to get that effect.
Did you ever bounce the issue off Gore. He should know since its his rebuild.
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Yeah I know... :shock:
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So is this where this ended? Any further changes?
Well, sorry it has been abit since the last update, I have been busy, got nailed by a ticket on the way back from VA and have had to entertain my cusin, which we did go riding yesterday. Well, I have not done much but the mods I listed above. But, here is a breif update: Clip (3rd), Main (170), Pilot (52), Needle (stock), Slide (#7), Air Screw (2 screws out), also cut the idle spring to about half to get it to idle. It has rained here alot and is humid as hell. But, I went out anyway, being it was still raining and it was breifly stoping.
It took FOREVER to warm the d**n thing up to where it would actually slide instead of sputter. Well, I don't know if it was humidity or what, but I had NO top-end power. It had a hell of a mid hit, but it would just fall flat on it's face in the top. So, I did decide to do some small drags (2 miles or so), it sputtered on the top real bad and took a while to get in the top and did not have any power when it would make it past. So, because I was not alone, I did not carry the lab tools (main jets ect.ect.), so I decided I may have screwed up the float height, so I took the carb apart at the truck and raised (leaned) the float height, then raised the clip one (2nd notch leaned), also screwed the idle screw out, so ito would not idle, and then rescrewed the pilot to 2nd turn. Did a few top-end runs, it ran like a dream! a huge hit in the top-end. Alot of mid and low, but serious top. Just like i like it. I then hit the trails again, being I had to be with my cusin, he fallowed me so d**n slowly that I was kinda bogging the bike around. Then when I hit the strip again, I had the SAME problem as before, all mid hit, no top-end and some bogging. Extremely rich feeling, and would not let it into the top. But, the power was hiting at the mid instead of the top.
Just a guess, but would this be the spark plug going bad? I have a BR8EIX and it has done great! I'm thinking a fouled plug.. I have been doing extremely stupid crazy stuff lately with the jetting and may have. I have had this plug in this bike for about 10 rides. Maybe needs changing it is seriously black.
Aside from that, then I did not think about the plug. So I removed the PV cover and fired it up and it seems to be working great! When you hit the mid rev, it openes half way, then a full throttle and it pulls all the way open. I'm assuming this is correct. I have the other carb in the carb cleaner to try it, maybe I have a screwed carb. I will first try the jets I just had and settings I had. Give it a shot then find out. Maybe it was the humidity. I can't come to richening it anymore, cause it feels like to is WAAY to rich. This is crazy and I know you guys are tired of hearing my moaning and groaning about it. I am too. I could get used to the power, but I am a sucker for topend hit and it is there, just with a d**n 160 main, 45 pilot and a (3rd needle position).
Can't test more tomarrow, I don't wanna test in the rain anyways and it is CONSTANT rain.. So, it should be clear by tomarrow evening, but will do more work Tuesday. If anybody has anymore input... PLEASE chip in. I will pick up a NEW plug tomarrow. If on Tuesday I get around to going riding and it does still hit at MID and not at the TOP. I will switch back to the origional jetting and just quit moaning and let you guys live a normal life. :-)
But, any input is appreciated. I am willing to try just baout anything.
Thanks!!!
PS: One more thing to add:
The needle I have R1366N from Partsfish.com off the microfiche is 16009B
and the needle N82M from Buykawasaki.com is part # 16009B from the same fiche film. So, I'm assuming they are the same and diffrent manufactures? partsfish.com also recognizes the part # 16009G N82M, while Buykawasaki.com recognizes the part # 16009G for N89B from the same fiche film. Crazy and screwed up. I'm confused now. [/i]
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Excellent Grammar!!!
So is this where this ended? Any further changes?
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In reading through this I don't see that you ever did the plug chop test. Did you do this? According to above if the bike dies when you pull the choke you're too rich. What happens with a jet one less than the 50?
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Hi Kawdude, the 45 pilot did help the idle, but it still had NO responce, as in, it would just bog and lug down low. So, I did try the choke, which just made it puff more and turned the small idle off. It would puff like 5 times then die, with the idle on it just dies. :-)
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Just for an update, I did call the dealer on Sat. just to find out what was going on, the mechanic said he felt comfortable with the changes he made and thought it was finished and said to come and get it. So, I was like, cool! So, I decided I would take off work early to get it, but then I thought I would call back and ask what he did and if he tested it.
So, I called and the idiot said that he did not test it nor started it to see if it was fixed or whatever. So, I ask him what he did, he said the Main was too fat, went down to a 160 main (WTF), left the needle as I had it, cleaned and reoiled the airfilter (was too oiled he said), and turned the reeds over cause there was some play in it. So, I told him to test it. Anyway the bill is $180. And will change as he has to RIDE it now..
:shock: I'm not too happy.. Why? Cause, I changed the reeds and they were fine, the previous stockers had NO gap in them and it did the same, so I'm knowing that it did not fix it. Oh yeah, they charge me 2 1/2 hours. This is screwed up. I will be charged MORE cause they have to test it and then I know they will have more tweaking. I told the service guy EVERYTHING I did and what worked and what did not. :x
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...or maybe bend over!!! How about you testing it there? You know what needed to be corrected. Either way I wouldn't let the bike leave until it's correct.
I would also mention that the 2.5hr charge is bit steep. Unless he included his lunch or taking a crap in the billing time. I wouldn't pay until this thing is 100%. Testing the outcome of the change should be included and not be an additional fee...jfc!
I would ask him what the stock jetting should be and ask if he knows that teamgreen runs a 170m. I think the 160 is way too lean. What about the floats? WTF...The main jet doesn't help the idle.
Bet it still isn't right :evil:
So, I called and the idiot said that he did not test it nor started it to see if it was fixed or whatever. So, I ask him what he did, he said the Main was too fat, went down to a 160 main (WTF), left the needle as I had it, cleaned and reoiled the airfilter (was too oiled he said), and turned the reeds over cause there was some play in it. So, I told him to test it. Anyway the bill is $180. And will change as he has to RIDE it now..
:shock: I'm not too happy.. Why? Cause, I changed the reeds and they were fine, the previous stockers had NO gap in them and it did the same, so I'm knowing that it did not fix it. Oh yeah, they charge me 2 1/2 hours. This is screwed up. I will be charged MORE cause they have to test it and then I know they will have more tweaking. I told the service guy EVERYTHING I did and what worked and what did not. :x
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I was going to buy a pilot jet for a quad that was running rich at idle/ low speed and had the parts guy was wanting to know why I wanted a pilot jet and not change the main or move the clip on the needle?Just goes to show because they work at a shop doesnt mean they know everything.
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Well, I just got off the phone with the dealer and they said they found the problem. :roll: They said the stator is putting out about 33/100 what it should be putting out. So, there for a weak spark. So, they are putting in a new stator and I could not be more happy. It will take like 3 days to get the stator and another day so, I should have it by early next week! Does this sound right? Would the stator being weak kill the jetting?
I already can tell this ***** is going to be pricy. :?
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300+ for stator depending on the dealer. Yes, weak spark would cause the engine not to run correctly and throw off the ability to jet it. I would think this issue resolves the mid and and above lack of power but will it help the idle??? I don't know. What does 33/100 mean? Is this 33% of what it should?
Hope this fixes the issues but test it before you take it. Did the dealer test the jet job and realized there were additional problems?
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33% is what I ment. :-) I'm hoping this will fix it.
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For me it looks to be a Ignition coil trouble not stator,you have to check what he have done, there will be much moore expensiv to change stator insted of coil.
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Sorry to hear your stator went out....My 2002 died 3 months after I bought it. 30 days at the dealership and 4-5 phone calls got the part free and cost me $150 labor...
My bike ran lean prior to dying completely....I have main jets from 165 to 180....Got to know the carb and air boot real well....
Anything can happen when the electronics are dying....I think mine varied with temperature too. Drove me nuts for weeks. Hope you get yours buttoned up and back on the trail soon.
Sharc
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Hope that fixes the issue.
So are they checking resistance of the coil or output. Does the service manual talk about the output??? Unfortunately, I guess I need to look at mine since it exhibits similar issues.
Gowen, just so it's clear. Is the problem you're having at the low end with idle and response or top end.
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Hope that fixes the issue.
Gowen, just so it's clear. Is the problem you're having at the low end with idle and response or top end.
Low end and response. Top end was fine, except after awhile it got to the point of complete falling flat on its face in the top end. The last few days of testing. And I don't know why. I'm assuming the stator was just going bad.
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Yup, I agree that a bad stator could be the problem. The stator is nothing more than magnet wire wound around an iron core. The wire is small, and wraps more than 1000 times, so if you get a bare spot inside the winding, the result could well be low output. Are they installing a new stock stator plate or just an after market stator coil? Kawasaki does not sell the stator coil or CDI trigger separately, so you have to purchase the entire plate and components as one unit. Unfortunately, kawasaki is real proud of their unit, and I think it retails at around $300.
Also, I have used the aftermarket stator coils, and was not impressed. I eventually opted for an entire new plate (I think Kawdude now has my old plate), which fixed an intermitent failure. In my case, I beleive the CDI trigger was bad.
Fainally, make sure you get your hands on the old stator coil, as you can use it to make a lighting coil for less than $20. The iron core is hard to find, so a stock stator makes a great start.
Hope this fixes the problem.
Rick
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(I think Kawdude now has my old plate),
Yep! and I'm very proud of it too! It was so shiny and bright!!! :D
In general wouldn't the problem with the stator be more apt to show up at the higher rpms? It seems to me that the bike ran fine in the mid and upper range until the jetting was changed. Those changes could have effected the entire range but I would expect that this issue would shown up at the higher rpms first...
hmmm, higher rpm's = more juice thru the coil = better spark...ok I'm good.
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Mine jetting for iceracer:
Main 230 (homedrilled)
pilot 60
outbored carb... 40mm and so on 8)
different needle than stock.
But don?t install that, you don?t have the grunch in your bikes :lol: :lol:
//doordie
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Mine jetting for iceracer:
Main 230 (homedrilled)
pilot 60
outbored carb... 40mm and so on 8)
different needle than stock.
But don?t install that, you don?t have the grunch in your bikes :lol: :lol:
//doordie
:shock:
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Well, I called the Kaw dealer and they said they are waiting on a call from Stator Corp. for numbers. They told me this like 3 days ago. The guy told me that they are reading it at like 33% but want to make sure from a pro. Well, funny thing is, I know Dave (owner) @ Stator Corp. So, I call Dave and he says he has not recieved any calls about a kx500. So, I just got off the phone with the dealer saying I'm coming to get my bike (finally), and I will order and install a stator myself. If that does not fix it, then I will start with a plate then a coil. Something will do the trick.
I'm sick of riding minibikes (125s and 250s) :mrgreen: I'm waitin' to get on that 5hunny.
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I hate dealing with the dealer. I think they are all crooks.
I sounds like that dealer is guessing. Makes me wonder if they even checked the stator.
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The jetting on 1/8 to 1/4 throttle is fickle on my bike. Very sensitive to altitude, heat, humidity, etc.. I purchased the adjustment screw from Zip-Ty that allows me to virtually change this setting while I'm sitting on the bike. It has really helped. I carry a few different pilots to get me from one extreme to the next but most of the time, adjusting my air screw works just fine. Check the plugs, oil on filter, and keep that carb clean.
Todd
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Well, I just got it back, I feel like Hulkster, but I guess my prob is mechanical not law. :-) The stator is going to be in tomarrow and I am going to take a big ride this coming Sunday, which I'm in the process of getting all the bikes ready. :-) Any, in the PIC note the Licenese Plate.. 8)
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Nice bike and nice truck!!
I was reading in "another" forum regarding big bore packages that Gore does in general need to be leaned out. This surprised the heck out of me. Any thoughts?
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Nice bike and nice truck!!
I was reading in "another" forum regarding big bore packages that Gore does in general need to be leaned out. This surprised the heck out of me. Any thoughts?
Thanks..
Well, coming from Rich, I'd assume he knows most his stuff. I'd run off his oppinion before most anybodys. But, like you said, does that imply with the kx500. I'm assuming so.
Hey, how's the luck on the jetting for your bike?
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Did you ever contact Gorr since he had just done your engine?
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Rich's response was this...
Scavenging tends to be improved with the big-bore kit and porting. With improved scavenging comes less residual burned exhaust gas in the chamber and a need for less fuel to use all the available oxygen. WHERE in the range that will occur is very much bike specific , but again generally speaking (can you tell I HATE making generalizations? :) ) the fuel curve tends to need to be a bit leaner across the board.
I'm afraid there is no general prescription answer to a question like this.
Nice bike and nice truck!!
I was reading in "another" forum regarding big bore packages that Gore does in general need to be leaned out. This surprised the heck out of me. Any thoughts?
Thanks..
Well, coming from Rich, I'd assume he knows most his stuff. I'd run off his oppinion before most anybodys. But, like you said, does that imply with the kx500. I'm assuming so.
Hey, how's the luck on the jetting for your bike?
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I'm assuming that makes sense. Utilizing the oxyigen there for not needing quite as much fuel. Well, ups has them on the brown for delivery today! So, I'm gonna give that stator a try and pray :roll: it works, if so, jetting is gonna be the next object. Which I'd be more than happy to keep you posted on that.
How is the jetting going on your side? as in, still popping and surging?
Rich's response was this...
Scavenging tends to be improved with the big-bore kit and porting. With improved scavenging comes less residual burned exhaust gas in the chamber and a need for less fuel to use all the available oxygen. WHERE in the range that will occur is very much bike specific , but again generally speaking (can you tell I HATE making generalizations? :) ) the fuel curve tends to need to be a bit leaner across the board.
I'm afraid there is no general prescription answer to a question like this.
Nice bike and nice truck!!
I was reading in "another" forum regarding big bore packages that Gore does in general need to be leaned out. This surprised the heck out of me. Any thoughts?
Thanks..
Well, coming from Rich, I'd assume he knows most his stuff. I'd run off his oppinion before most anybodys. But, like you said, does that imply with the kx500. I'm assuming so.
Hey, how's the luck on the jetting for your bike?
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Leaning out the pilot to a 55 seemed to get rid of the popping and surging after I let off the gas but still have the problem with the bike running rough in the mid and upper range. Not go past mid. My next test will entail placing the needle clip in the upper slot and then the lower slot in an attempt to change the response. I also need to make sure the power valve is working right.
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It makes me wonder that you both have his 520 engine and both seem to be having a lot of problems getting it to run clean, and his answer doesnt sound like much help for all the hair pulling your going through.How was it before the engine work,meaning did you have all these jetting issues ect. before?
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My bike was shot before the restoration. I've never had the "priviledge" of working on such a wore out hunk of machinery before this. It definately runs much better since the redoing the topend and crank but need to dial in the jetting.
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Well, stator is in, bike is together. I am ready to give it a run. I did fire it up and it started second kick (serious ass kick) Usally not the norm. Usally lay it down. But I do have a new IX plug in it. So, I'm thinking that is it. Anyway, fired it up, it puffs like 10 times then died. Maybe hope! I then restarted it, gave it some rev and it sounded VERY unclean. Just mushy down low and lotsa smoke. d**n! I'm hoping that is cause of the choke, but I know that is NOT the case. Again, d**n! I'm out of qestions or ideas.
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Did I forget to mention d**n!
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First test the coil to make sure its good. Sounds like this could be a jetting issue. :shock:
Have you tried rejetting...:wink:
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Kawdude, I did decide to take the bike for a run after work today, (well yesterday now) and I noticed it sounded diffrent, more popping and just smoother revving. So, I decided to take it for a few runs slowly and no it still won't idle and no it still smokes, but it has cleaned the rev about 90% down low. I believe the stator has fixed the biggest problem I've been having, no responce! But, I believe I'm still rich down low and in the mid. I am going to try to drop the needle (raise the clip) and try playing with the air screw. BTW, I tried a 165 main and it is great. I'm not used to all the wheelies now. :-)
Anyway, I'll keep posted on cleaning the low up. I am still on a 52 pilot. Running center clip and a 165 on the main. I will check the air screw next. I'm still hoping to find an idle.
Thanks guys! I believe I've gotten the biggest problem fixed!
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So what did dropping to the 165 do for performance? Is it cleaner? I'm at a 170 and it seems fine but rich.
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So far, dropping to a 165, I have not felt much improvement in power, maybe a slight bit, it does feel cleaner and less smoking up top.
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Just to let you and Kawdude know, I too have experienced the lack of idle with my bike. Jetting is clean from bottom to top. No appreciable wear noted on idle screw or slide bottom, float and choke circiut OK. Idle srew turned all the way in and not quite enough for a good idle. The difference between mine and yours is my idle srew uses a lock nut instead of a spring. Well, as picky as I am I could'nt leave it that way. I went and purchased a 5mm X .80 X 40MM bolt that just happened to be the right size. I then ground the tip down to match the stock unit and I now have a good idle with a good amount of adjustment. If you try this please verify that you do indeed have the same size and thread pitch that I have to avoid damaging the the threads in the carburetor. If it is too long to use with the spring, simply trim the end, reshape and try again until the desired length is obtained. Before you do this however, get your jetting spot on first because you may not need this mod.
Just to let everyone know, Paul's jetting chart is pretty d**n close. After jetting my bike by the ride and feel method, I ended up right where the chart says I should be for my altitude and temp. I am running the fatty pipe but not the Vforce reeds.
Good work Paul!
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A NEW THOUGHT!! WHAT ABOUT TIMING?
Well, I took the beast out for a ride at a local called Buckle Berrys. I like that place cause they have a 1/4 mile dirt/sand drag and alot of open sandy land. I took it out for awhile and it ran great! Started 2nd kick (wow! it never started that easy since new) Well, here is the new beef, it had A TON of low-end (constant wheelies) but kinda weak top, would not rev too much, felt like a d**n 4 stroke. I started to race a 4 wheeler, plowed him like parked and the guy said to hold up while he gets his bike, he came back with a cr500! So, we took to a drag, with all low, he got the holeshot and kept a bike length, but all in all, we were even, it all depended on who got the holeshot. Well, I knew I should be eating this d**n little cr500, compared to a KX with all the work I've done and a stock CR. So, I decided I would play with the timing. On the stator, what marks are you guys running? I believe most KX500's have three marks, center is stock. Do most of you guys leave in the center?
I decided on retarding the timing to the third notch and took it for a run, it felt pretty much like normal, kinda quick down low, power shifted down low and it would punch in the mid and wouldn't rev much into the top. So, I then decided to try to go in between the 1st notch and 2nd (center), I took it for a few runs down the drag and it handled great it felt like the top-end had come back and would punch in the top, I decided I was quite happy with it and wanted to advance it to the 1st notch completely. Well, on the way back to my camping spot, the d**n flywheel key snapped (my d**n fault for not tightening the nut enough). So, that ended that. I will make sure to bring alot of them keys next time I make a run. Problem is that it is too hard to get out there (an hour away).
What do you guys think? Especially if you have a hard hitting, high reving 500, do most of you guys keep in the center of the stator?
BTW, advancing/retarding the timing has not helped the idling.
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Wow, the responses to this are giong to be interesting.
I have always run center mark, and never tested to see if there was any improvement with timing changes. However, if your running Chevron pump premium like I am, advancing may cause some unhappy noises, which on race fuel will go away.
Rick
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I run the stock center mark also.
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Center mark. I'm too scared to move it. So why did the bike run better than it did before. What changed or was it the stator swap?
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I changed the stator, which did not help how it ran really I don't think, well, it felt like it did for awhile, then it kinda creeped back into the sluggish mode. I've moved to the retarted notch. I took off tomarrow morning off so I could work on this, I'm hoping to find out what is wrong. I am thinking I may have a defect carb. I will post in the wanted forum for a carb.
I'll let you guys know tomarrow. Thanks..
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Well, I spent from 9:30am to 2:30pm working and tweaking the big K today and have to say, I'm getting somewhere with this jetting! 8)
Having busted another flywheel key this morning, it delayed my riding. But, I was just tweaking and tuning all day anyways. I decided to purchase a handful of diffrent pilot and main jets. Being my goal was shifting the powerband to the top-end, while getting an idle and having crisp responce. Well I achived about 90% of that. I believe it could use a bit more idle. But, here is the case. I started the day reading my service manual, then calling Forword Motion and talking to Eric and Rich for a few minutes. Well, after taking some notes, I hit the dealer for flywheel keys and jets. Setting up my tools, umbrilla (d**n hot), chair and stand, I began my decent in tuning.
I set my flywheel on the retarted section, and bolted the flywheel down using a lock washer and a air hammer with my portable air compressor. :D (double security and peace of mind)
After a few hours of riding, and tweaking, I decided I would forget anything anybody has told me, cept for Rich and Eric who said that I should lean the bike out as the port job I selected and bore, and go by the seat of my pants. So, starting with a 165 main, 55 pilot, center clip needle, 1.5 turns on the air. I knew I was rich, so I started the decent, starting down low, changing the pilot to a 52 and turning the air screw slowly until I hit 2.5 not much idle, two puffs and too much d**n fuel. So, next? The needle, I decided to drop the needle a clip, achived a small idle but would die slowly, so I dropped it to the top clip. Idle! :shock: Without the screw all the d**n way in! After hearing the lovely wonderful idle, I hit the throttle and what a d**n crisp noise I've never heard out of this bike. So, thinking it could be a fluke and just cause it always runs good from a start, I decide to take it for a run, and crap! :shock: That guy runs, very responsive. But, with the retarted timing, it hits like a freight train in the top-end, but still some sputtering and puffing, having no more needles, I decide to drop the main jet. Yes my friends, I dropped to a 162 and will NEVER turn back. It runs like a bat out of hell and scares the s**t out of me. :twisted: Not a bit of hessitation. It could use a smaller pilot as the idle is still a little rich. So, I'm thinking maybe a 50 which I do not have. Anyway, I bring a new BR8EIX plug, slap her in, run for a few hours, wfo and trails, pop her out, crisp brown in the center. :D :D :D
I think I still need to lean it up down low, but the rest is just wonderful. I'm finding that maybe the port job on my KX has allowed more fuel to enter while killing the passage for air into the cylinder causing a serious richness problem.
Being everything I've learned from you guys and the wonderful guys at FM, I think I should open a jetting shop. I can't take any more days off this week, but I'm going to, this sunday, maybe kit the drag and trails, I will also pick up some pilots and do further testing.
I run Klotz Super Tech which has like 10% castor, so I'm not too worried about lack of lubrication, but I am very satisfied with the way it is now, but, the pilot can be fixed a bit, as I'm seriously out on the air screw.
Any ?'s or comments welcomed.
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I'm is awe!!! :o Interesting. Before the rebuild mine had a 162m and 62 pilot. Idled terrible but the top end was lousy too. It just takes fiddling with it and the time to do it.
What was the air temp when you were doing this???
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about 70% humidity and 90 degrees.
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Cool now look at pauls chart... it's right d**n there!!!
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Yup! Thanks Paul.. Now, I can't wait to get back on the drag strip with some 4wheelers and that cr500. My bike feels like I just installed a bottle of NOS on it. :-D
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Well, I'm gonna try a 50 pilot tomarrow and see the results, then a 48 if needed. I will let you guys know the stats. :-) Kawdude, have you tried any more jetting deals? I'm real curious if it is just me, cause I know you have a pretty much same setup as myself. 520kit that is, which port did you go with?
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Mo better. I haven't had a chance to continue my jetting quest. Right now I'm at a 170 with the clip in the middle. I moved it there from the secound clip and noticed a response difference. Less snap. Not a lot but it was different. I will drop it back to a 165 and see what happens.
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My 94 came with N82R as stock, is the N82M a leaner needle? According to the Kawaski web site it is not an option until later years. All I know is that no local Kawasaki dealer has one in stock so I will have to order it. Mine will only run with the clip in the first position and it surges on downhills. I have a 168 main with a 55 pilot and 2 turns out on the air screw.
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I think the R is richer. The surges are coming from to much gas getting into the idle circuit. Adjusting the pilot screw may help. I don't know what you altitude is but dropping to a 52 pilot could remove the surges. On my 94 I had to replace the slide and lean out the pilot.
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Did replacing the slide help? I am thinking about that, just to see if it helps. I have a #6 slide, but the stock and what I have in it is a #7. But, no sign of being worn. Anyway, no reason just curious.
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My slide had a ding in one of the corners so it did make a difference. Wasn't a perfect fix but lowering the pilot jet and fiddling with the air screw has helped bunches.
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My latest report...temp=75 @ 600ft. 8)
Went down to 165 and it seemed to improve the topend. So then I raised the clip to the 2nd notch and it seemed to help the mid top. I will raise the clip to the top just to see what happens. I also noticed that the old carb that I have has a #7 slide and I may play with that but as I stated above the slide is not in the best condition
:roll:
The problem now is that the surges are back even though I leaned two of the circuits...weird! :evil:
I realize that neither circuit I adjusted deals with the idle but something is playing into the equation. When the bike is surging I can change the number of surges by adjusting the air screw but it doesn't remove the surges.
Another thought...I did go to 40:1 and the surges seemed to get worse??? I don't understand this.
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Kawdude, I went out riding the other day and I did not notice any surges. I've decided that I will keep moving down on the jetting until I find that I'm too lean, then will move back up a few. I did pull the plug again and find a clean tan plug. But, I've only had a few runs since the change in jetting.
Being that you had the porting job and big bore, I'd suggest trying race fuel. I hate to say it, but I had serious surging issues until I switched to the race fuel. Currently I'm running between VP U4 or C12 depending on which is in stock and I pay around $10/gal. If I can't get ahold of either I run to the local BP here and get the 100 octane Spirits fuel. Great stuff! 3.30 a gallon and not a single surge so far. It's worth a try. You can get the VP or usally any type of 100+ octane fuel from your local dealership or race track. Try calling or looking at some BP's for Spirits 100 octane.
Anyway, I plan on going out this Sunday and doing more testing with the jetting to see if I can find the perfect mixture in fuel/air and I'm still rich down low and I lost my 48 and 50 pilot. :-( So, I need to reorder them. :-( I'm hoping a 48 pilot will allow me to move the needle clip down one notch as I'm at the top. But, we will see!
Anyway, I enjoy playing with my jetting now that I have some guides to go by and have found a breakthough in the big K5. I started playing with the carbs on my other bikes and finding that quite a few are WAY to rich and the others are too lean, only found one to be on target and I always wondered why that bike never fouled plugs and was always crisp and scary.
It has been so busy here at work that I have not had time to touch my bike. Anyway, I have to overnight/saturday the pilots to get them before sundays testing. I'm starting to get so much power out of this bike I now am looking into dropping the gearing, as 5th gear 90mph wheelies are getting scary. :-)
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Well, I just got back from VA where I worked on my KX's jetting and did some testing. Well here goes:
Jetting: 162main, top clip needle, 52 main, 2 1/2 turns out on the air, #7 slide. I decided I'd get my cusin involved with me to tinker with the carb and see what we could come up with, well first, it was 80 degrees, 80% humidity, sunny, humit/hot as hell and ready to get this d**n thing streight. Well, I did ride it first before tinkering with it, running BP Spirits (100o leaded) mixed @ 32:1 using HPO, it ran great, alot of smoke and an idle! But, idle was weak, idle screw was all the way in. Running great! Twist and and shoot is the way the bike ran. Anyway, I started off by changing the pilot from a 52 to a 50 and moving the air screw back to 1.5 I fired the beast up (1st kick) and ripped the fields for about 30 minutes. Came back and it idled ok and a bit on the non-responsive side, even though it rips and does fine. So, idling, I start moving the air screw out. Which helped a bit, but still too low but better than the 52. So, having moved out to 2.5 with better luck but not enough to satisfy myself, I installed a 48 pilot. Moved the air screw back to 1.5 and fired it up, idle!!!!! No, I mean REAL idle! Crisp responce. Very slight smoke and a ripping powerband, almost too much power down low! I'm not used to any power down low as it ran too rough. So, I decided to play with the air screw anyway, which I did, moving out to 2.5 helped a bit, making it smoother. I have a 45 pilot which I will not use as I'm VERY happy with the performance I have now. It ripped down low, pulling the wheel off the ground at a scary rate and if the throttle was moved to WFO it would rip/roar/slide and wheely all at once. Very nice. Anyway, I rode a tank and a half and it rocks! Rode until I hurt from holding on so tight. Vibes were not an issue, but I could bearly notice them, so thanks to mikesmith, I tried the expanding foam idea.. GONE! 125 vibes and jetting nearly perfect. What a wonderful day!
Anyway, I rode until about 6pm and decided to quit and load up, well I decided to do a slide around the field and noticed a bit of power loss in the half throttle section, so I'm assuming I need to raise the needle a notch. Aside from that, I could not be more happy with my K5 and the jetting. Retarding the timing as made the K5 run close to like a 125 type powerband, which is wonderful for me! :-)
Anyway, my crisp responce is at:
162 Main
48 Pilot
1st notch (needle lowered max)
2.5 air screw
#7 slide
Ignition Timing Set at Right Mark (Retarted Mark)
Future Thoughts: (will post results as I do more testing this week)
45 Pilot (maybe get that Air Screw back to 1.5)
2nd Notch (lift needle a notch)
BTW, running BP 100 I have no surging or pinging what so ever.
It's wierd that the biggest performance improvement on the K5 is the jetting. Forget the pipes, big bores, turbos and what have you, having a perfect Air/Fuel mixture is the key. :mrgreen:
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Glad you like the foam trick and you got your bike sortted out.Your right about the jetting,no mods worth the money if you dont have the 500 jetted right!
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It's wierd that the biggest performance improvement on the K5 is the jetting. Forget the pipes, big bores, turbos and what have you, having a perfect Air/Fuel mixture is the key.
exactly. this is why I would like to see a fuel injected 2 -stroke hit the market. perfect air fuel mixture, no matter what elevation ,humidity, or temperature.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the clip being set in the top notch signify that the pilot something??? Or is that the needle?
I got mine running OK. Idles great and the top end is better but now the surges are terrible. I may retard the timing slightly to see if that helps.
Anyway, my crisp responce is at:
162 Main
48 Pilot
1st notch (needle lowered max)
2.5 air screw
#7 slide
Ignition Timing Set at Right Mark (Retarted Mark)
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Well, I decided to move to the 45 Pilot and that is it. Crisp Idle.. Anyway, just for thoughts, I broke my arm and hip yesterday in working on the jetting on the KX also got 1st degree burn on my right leg from the exhaust pipe. I guess that means I'm out of riding for a few months. :-(
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Ouch! Hope you get better soon,at least your bikes sorted out and ready for you!
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Gowen, you broke your arm AND hip in one crash!!! That must have been one big nasty get off...
During our recent recovery from broken bones, I was tempted to get on the bike early. Glad I dind't, as I am now 100%. However, it did take about 5 rides to get my head squared away. I felt like every bump was going to cause a crash.
Heal Quick.
Rick
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Thanks Guys, the hip fracture is minor, but enough to cause severe swelling. I shattered the bone right before the wrist, so that is the overall issue. Alot of burn treatment, casts, and I'm home. :-)
As for the wreak, I was out on a developement highway not quite yet completed (still dirt), which I've done most of my carb testing here, well doing a 90-100mph 5th run, I at the last second noticed that they had added a few mountians of dirt to the runway and trying to avoid them slid off the road hitting a large hole thrwing me and the bike down a 30ft hill. And besides a broken rear finder, gnarled sub frame, & a serious V shaped seat, It's fine. I had my buddy come and pick the bike up and he said it started first kick. :-)
But anyway a cuncussion, fractured arm, hip and serious burns, I'm still alive! And my K5 is too, busted like me, but still running. :mrgreen:
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:shock: yikes,it sounds like it could have been much worse. Thats the thing about these bikes, they run so nice in 5th ,it's easy to get lost as to how fast your actually going.
Best of wishes on a good healing.
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To bad we cant just put a new sub frame and fender on you and have you ready to go like your bike!
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OUCH! That really sucks and I glad to hear you're still around. I keep posting my tests...
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These bikes command respect. If you don't respect them they will bite you. But you really have to say the guys that own and ride these machines also command respect. Not just anyone can get on it and make it shine. Maybe we're all just a little nuts (or packing big ones :shock: ). Hope you don't let the wreck get ya down and that you mend fast. It sounds like it could have been a lot worse.
John
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Well, I look at it this way, it is a time to tear completely down and rebuild everything. I've got on order all new carb hoses, swing arm bearings, shock/linkage bearings, steering bearings, wheel bearings, and a new rear finder. :-) Soon a sub frame (stock, used if I can find one), front tire, and new front brake assy (as stock don't work worth a d**n)
Anyway, the few months are an excuse to fix the old bike up and running like a 2004. :-) 8)
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That's the spirit! Get er done!
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Gowen, what type of rear fender did you get. 500 style or 250?
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Hi Kawdude, I got a 250 fender. I'm working on installing the new top-end and the steering bearings. Also waiting on a subframe. :-( Almost there though. :-) I guess I will just creep on my the four wheeler until my arm heals up nice.
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Kawdude, have you gotten any better results with the jetting? I get my cast removed this coming Monday and can't wait to break the carb down and find more power in this beast.
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I've been holding on changing anything but the slow screw just to see what changes I can make. I still think that I have too much smoke at idle and rich mid and up but its still a work in progress. Right now I'm having a tuff time starting it after it sits. Seems to flood very easy after coming down to the 165M. Weird I know. I may play with the timing a little within the next week.
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Continued: Well, I have worked more on the jetting on the big KX trying to get it perfect. I decided to continue, A, cause my cast is now gone :-D, & B my idle is still kinda slow with the screw all the way in. So, here I go again, BTW, clean airfilter, new topend, and good reeds. I left off at 45 Pilot, top clip (bottomed out), and a 162 main jet. Well, I decided to drop the pilot again, just to see if it helps, and yes, my idle has raised a notch, using the air screw slowly, I have found that 2.5 turns out has given the best idle responce. It has greatly improved the idle and the 1/8th throttle. It's amazing how low I'm having to go for a KX. Being that I'm at 42 at 2.5, I'm hoping to get my hands on a 40 to see how it is going to work. But, so far, moving down has helped alot.
The needle is still at the lowest point, top notch. When I would hit between the 1/4th to 1/2th throttle, it would not respond right away, it would bog a second and then hit hard. So, I think I will lift the needle a notch tomarrow to richen the circut on the needle.
The main jet is still a wonder. I decided to do a throttle chop dealy and see how it works, at a 162 I did a WFO for about 30 seconds, pulled the NEW plug out and saw a light tan on the insulator up high. Then did another WFO run for about 1 minute and revealed a light tan on the tip and a grey base/almost like a light black. Assuming not lean, but more rich, not sure, I will get pictures.
I'm afriad that I'm moving too far into this, but being that it is still not idling very well (as well as it should). I'd hate to end a riding day early to to a d**n seizure. Any oppinions?
Updated Carb Specs:
42 Pilot
2.5 Air Screw
1st clip (lowered to last notch)
#7 Slide
162 Main Jet
Thanks
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I'm concerned with doing a wot and letting off the gas with a 42 in it. I'm still playing with mine and will post what I do for comparison. Right now I've got a 55, clip in 2nd pos. and 165 main. Popping pretty good. Dropped to 3rd and reduced the popping.
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Well, here is where I'm at so far, I've moved to the second notch due to a slightly lean mid throttle range. That seems to have done the trick for the mid range/top-end range. It has done well, but we finally got a 50% humidity day here and I took it to the track yesterday and did some trails and got ALOT of smoke during the trails part, but on the track, no problem, except for wide open runs for a brief second, I get ALOT of smoke, but eventually goes away, until I let it idle or keep the rpms/throttle down. After a few runs on the track the idle starts moving in the upper range (finally) and starts acting lean, as in surging, nearly causing an accident as the throttle was over sensitive. So, I moved the air screw back to a 1.5 and that fixed the major surging and sensitivity, but caused a load more smoke. So, it feels like I may be lean, but the smoke is killing me and the riders behind me. I'm starting to think my main jet is rich, but being at a 162, I have my doubts. Any thoughts?
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What are you running for a fuel:oil mixture?
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What are you running for a fuel:oil mixture?
32:1 running Super Techniplate and sometimes Benol by Klotz.
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It all makes sense now...
I run mine at 50:1 with Maxima Super M and I don't get the smoking problem or the idling problems. I also don't have carbon build up of any kind in the cylinder or power valves. I also race this bike at that mix and I've never had a failure. I put a couple hundred miles a month on that engine.
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:idea: Hmmmm.. Here's the problem though, because we go out riding in large groups, I share the fuel between my 250 ('97 cr) and my kx. In which both are running between C12 and Spirits (100 RON + 93 MON?). All other bikes have their mixture of pump with 32:1. I'm afriad to try 50:1 in my cr. So, I'll just make a new batch of gas for my KX and give it a shot. I'm taking this Thursday or Friday off so I'll get back with the results.
Paul, should I use Super M? I have no PV buildup in a year (just checked them) and bearly any carbon build up in the cylinder. Do you think using Castor based oils is a good idea? I do have some H1R left over, is that any good in your oppinion? I see KXCam is running H1R @ 60:1? Wow, I'm scared to even try 50:1. But, hell it might be worth it and save me alot of oil. :lol:
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Gowen,
32:1 sure seems rich to me when using synthetic oil. Last time I used 32:1 was penzoil mineral oil in the late '70's. I raced for years with Belray MC-1 at 85:1 (it was the recommended mix on the bottle). No smoke, no carbon great power and excellent cylinder longevity made me a Belray fan (fanatic?). The only oil failures I ever had were at 32:1 with the mineral oil. I recently emailed belray to ask why the old mc-1 said 85:1 and the new bottles say 50:1. The answer I got was that people were leery about the lean ratio (not socially acceptable) so they changed the text on the bottle even though it was tested to be best at 85:1. Heck, my Yamaha outboard runs 100:1 yamalube. My '92 KX is very happy at 60:1 with H1-R, idles, 1-kick starts, and no smoke. Haven't had to clean the power valve. I may be a Belray nut but I think all the new synthetic oils are quite excellent. Lots of my friends swear by Super M. Try It. I'll bet your CR likes it too. Cam.
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I ran my CR500 @ 50:1 with Super M, so don't worry about the red machine ;)
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I just picked up a 5 gallon can of C12, thinking I'm going to try a 50/50 of C12 and Amoco 93 using H1R @ 50:1 for starters. I'll let you guys know when I can get enough time off to ride before the weekend. :popcorn:
BTW, doordie, what do you run in your ice racer? Knowing it is a WOT machine. or if anybody else knows..
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Gowen,
I asked a couple of the ice racers I work with. They both (CR & YZ250's) run H1-R at 50:1, winter & summer. I am interested to know what Doordie runs. Cam.
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Going to try a 55 pilot this weekend. Have been running a 58 for years but want to try it a tad leaner to see how it responds. According to the jetting chart I am right on the verge of needing it. Cam.
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Cam, I've done a few rides now using C12 mixed with Pump 93 mixed at 50:1 using H1R, then Benol @ 50:1 as it was the only oil I had then. I took it out to a local park and ran it hard, soft, all around and it performed well, but smoke was still pretty bad. I started out at 42 pilot, 162 main, 2nd notch. Moved down to a 160 main and it performed great and the smoke left, I've put about 10 hours on the 50:1 and no problems to speak of.
I did take it again afterwords and it was raining, humid and around 80 degrees. It ran pretty rich, and I did fool around with the air screw, which did not help the performance which I found was in the WOT range. So, I needed to move down to a 158 then, but a 160 seems to be the ticket for a nice day. Maybe a 158 would be sufficient. But who knows.
Thanks
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Gowen,
I'm still suprised that your 520 big bore requires leaner jetting that stock. I always assumed that increasing the bore would increase the fuel demand, hence richer jetting. You and Kawadude are both leaner. What do I know. My bike runs great but I have been slowly leaning it out a bit more. I went 168 to 165 a few months ago and noticed a nice improvement. Will try the 55 tomorrow. How are you healing? Cam.
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The only thing short of a 520 kit Kawdude and myself did, is I moved for topend power and he got the overall power. Which I've been told that is why I'm way down on the low numbers as for idleing.
As far as healing goes, I've been able to ride, I've been told not to ride hard and to take it easy for the next 6 months............... Right, like that is going to happen. :-)
Thanks for asking, I'll keep updating as I fish around the carb.
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The 55 worked out nice. Ran clean all the way from 1100' to 6000'. Starts 1 kick although in the cold (about 2deg C.) at 6000' I had to use the choke to start once the engine had cooled down. Suprised me at first but probably shows that the jetting is correct. Should be getting some snow to ride in soon. Cam.
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Wow!!! It's still in the 90's here. :-D
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This post is great. It's like the energizer bunny..it keeps going and going and going. I havent' had much time to mess with mine but I have noticed that the starting has become lousy and since Rick has built the estart conversion yet I have to fix this. Could be the jetting but lots of gas coming out the overflow and I haven't touched the float to cause this. Possible needle seat is shot. Anyway another issue that I'm seeing is that when the bike does start it races. Slide is not sticking. Would flooding cause this? It's odd i would have developed a airleak so quickly. Keep the info coming. This is a great post!!!
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The weather changes and so does your jetting with it,air screw ok?
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This is what I do, if I have to screw my air screw out past 2 1/2 turns, I go one step down on the pilot and so forth.
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Good advice.
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How do i tell if the airscrew is ok?
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as in position? or the actual screw is bad?
I've always done this by the idle, I screw it out or in, whichever gives the best/most idle.
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Is the most/best idle where the screw should be set? If this is out past 1.5 turns the slow needs to be lowered one size.
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Kawdude, to my knowledge you are suppose to keep going down until you get the highest idle. I'm at a 42 pilot and going down, I'm thinking a 40 is my next stop. Cause I'm at 2.5 turns and still have a struggling idle.
I was at the 1st notch on the needle, but ended up being REAL lean on the mid. I'm at the 2nd and seems great in the mid, but the top is still a VERY little rich on the top.
But, still have problems down low, I'm hoping to take care of the low-end and move to the 3rd notch in the mid.
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Right now I have mine sitting at the bottom notch. It's very rich mid and up. I'm going to move it back to the 2nd or 3rd notch to lean it out. I may try going down on the slow jet because the screw still doesn't do much to change the idle.
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Kawdude, if you mean the bottom notch being the 5th notch, that would VERY much effect the idle and top-end performance. I'd drop it to the 2nd notch right away and see the performance change, I promise it will help ALOT. That was my problem was the needle, once I got the needle to the 1ST notch it helped me realize where the circut was off, and I was able to lean out the pilot and main slowly, once I got down in the pilot, I was able to move the needle down one (richer 2nd notch) and that has helped alot. I'm just about right in the mid section and top, a little rich on the top when in humidity/rain. I'd adjust the needle and give it a try. Let me know.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that when I sent the needle to the 1st notch the idle instantly arose. Though, I could tell the low was rich cause of a uneven rev and rough idleing. So, I moved the pilot down until the mid range became too lean, I could tlel cause of surging and a over sensative throttle. That is when I moved to the 2nd notch, did wonders for the power. Just a thought.
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I totally agree. The bottom notch is way to rich and I feel the bike acting as such. I had the clip in numerous slots just to find out how it effects everything. What I've noticed is if the clip is in the 2nd position from the top the bike surges badly. However, it does idle. My next attempt would be to lower the slowjet. I believe I'm at a 52, maybe 55. Either way I drop to the next. With what you've said above are you implying the mainjet has been dialed in?
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Yes, I have power right off the idle, it jumps right into the high rpms, unless I'm on pavement or something. But, if I recall, you are a bit above sea level, so it may not be the same. Who knows.. If you need some jets, I've got them all. :-) Pilot and mains.
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Here's the lastest in the jetting saga...
I spent the day on Sunday screwing with different combinations and it's getting close. Right now I'm at the 3rd clip from the top, 168 main, and 52 pilot.
First dropped the pilot from 55 to 52 and moved the clip to the second notch from top It idled but after running the engine seemed to be constantly "surging" at the idle position...not just when I let off on the gas but as it sat there. While riding it for several minutes I noted that there was some knocking...piston :shock: . After some key "french" words I started screwing with the air screw. I cranked in all the way in and the idle cleaned up (surge wise) but wouldn't idle. Revved the engine a couple of time and turned the screw to 1.5 out, cracked the thottle a couple times and the surges and knocks were back. Turned the screw in one turn so it's about .5 turns out. Idle ok, surges ok. Moral: the surging seems to be a lean condition. I found that my bike is sensitive to 1/4 turn increments. Went out and rode it. Lots of power from 0-50% throttle...big difference in power. Beyond mid fell on it's face but I'm not dealing with the topend range yet. By the way the temp was 80. Hotter=richer...right?
Here's where I'm at...the knocking scared me. I spent too much cash on this thing to destroy it. I dropped the clip to the third notch. No problems at that point but it doesn't launch like it did with the clip in the 2nd clip. I should have posted this yesterday because I can't remember if the knocking went away totally after setting the airscrew or when the clip was dropped. I think it did with the screw adjustment but I was still scared that I was too lean and dropped the clip to the 3rd slot. Am I safe leaving it in the 2nd position?
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Your jetting saga is interesting reading. Sounds like you big bore guys may be fighting a poor transition between the pilot and needle. I noticed on a KTM site that JDJetting.com has made custom Keihin dual-taper needles. The KTM's are notoriously hard to jet and the JDneedle seems to be the solution. I looked and they offer a KX500 kit. Might be worth a try if it's not too much $$. Anyway have a look. Cam.
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Sorry guys. Me and my big mouth. I just checked the JD site and they no longer have a KX500 listing, almost no other 2-strokes. Oops. Cam.
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Sheesh, that sounds like the problem, maybe I'll shoot them a mail to see if they can still find one left over.
Thanks
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Thoughts on whether or not its safe to leave it in the 2nd notch? I bet one of the needles JDJetting.com sells would work...
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Kawdude, I hit some surging with the 2nd notch this weekend after a few long hard runs on the kx. I was able to mostly adjust the richness/leaness with the air screw.. Which helped alot. It was about 70 degrees outside. So, a bit lean I think. Running a 42 with a 160 main really worked out, it felt a little lean down low and in the mid. Adjusting the air screw did help alot, although it did not completely go away, it worked wonders.
I think maybe the air screw may have did the job. The knocking you are hearing is a spark knock and sounds like you may have been a little lean. I would go back to the 2nd notch and give it a shot. Let me know how it works. I think the air screw should have done the trick..
EDIT:
I'll go into more detail of my excursion from this past Sunday. We have a semi-local place which is 2000 acres of sand. No dunes.. :( Which has a packed dirt/sand drag strip, which is 3/5th of a mile also has trails that are about 10ft wide and are miles long. Well, anyway, it was seriously a beautiful day, no humidity and 70 degress and not a cloud in sight. Anyway, perfect day to ride. I came using the 42 pilot, 2nd notch, 160 main, and 2 1/2 turns on the air. Deciding to try a 50/50 mix of pump and C12, just to see if it would work and save some $$$. I started the bike and noticed RIGHT away it was idling funny, mixture of richness and leaness. How do you describe, not a clean REV. It puffed and caughed in a rev. It did not want to cleanly rev through the RPM. Anyway, I would have thought that was rich. Well, as the day progressed, I got to do some 5 mile runs on the trails, mainly 3rd to 4th WOT, preformed fine, still had a revving problem, would not rev through the rpms at a standstill, but would run through the RPM fine in gear. :?: After about 4 hours of drag racing and racing the trails, I noticed if I hit the throttle it would rev, then surge badly, like keep reving, almost as if the gas was running out.
Anyway, played with the air screw, back to 1.5. Helped ALOT but made it bad in the idle.
That is where I am. :-/ Busted all 3 pipe mounts too. :cry: Serious bummer. Kawdude, if I can get a clean rev without surging in the RPM's at a standstill (Neutral or clutch in) or blubbering, I would be happy.
Overall, the bike performed well, unless I revved it or ran it hard for some time, it did great! I'm going back to streight C12 to see if that helps.
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So is the knocking not piston slap? I'm concerned that it will lock up if I run it that way. Also, are you able to change the jets and the clip with removing seat, gas tank and carb. That's what really pisses me off. The weather hear was beautiful on Sunday also which probably had something to do with it. It amazed me that 1 notch took the snap away since all the diagrams I've seen say the needle jet doesn't do much until mid...that's bs. I'll screw with it somemore. At least, this time I got changes in performance. It seems to me that my bike is better at 52. I'd be afraid to try anything smaller, however, the main jet needs to be dropped to 165 at least because when I got on it it fell flat. I suppose the exhaust valves could be stuck but d**n I've only put around 15 - 20 hours on it since the rebuild. Thanks for your help!
One other thing...
The bike started on the 3rd kick!!! Hell, I was still priming it. No racing rev at the start either. Next time I do this i plan to change/clean the airfilter. I've been using a filterskin with oil applied to that also. It's probably plugged.
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Your jetting saga is interesting reading.
Thanks for reading it! This is Gowen's work in progress so take anything I say with a grain of salt on the jetting topic. I really don't know what I'm doing here :shock: !!!
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Gowen,
Your bike jetting sounds like a tough nut to crack. You seem to be always headed in the right direction but not quite getting there. Frustrating I bet! I would suggest that you may have to dial in the main (plug chop runs up a hill) first and lean the pilot (get a nice idle) then leave them alone and try some different needles until the transition is nice. Possibly a leaner needle might be the ticket. Then you could run the needle higher than you normally do to richen the 1/4-1/2 throttle but it would be leaner (ie thicker straight section on the needle) at 3/4. Also some dumb things would be to check the tank cap vent & petcock fuel flow. I have had a partial plugged vent that would partially airlock the tank after a few hours and leanout the carb by reducing the fuel flow and lowering the float level. Have you done the tape thing on the grip and marked the throttle incremants. It helps to tell which jet a weird symptom is comming from (just tell your friends the 1/4 mark is all your allowed to use when racing against hondas). At 42 on the pilot you may be able to borrow 40 & 38 from a 300EXC owner since those are the stock sizes that they have to take out to actualy make then run (same carb). It's easy to be an armchair quarterback so feel free to ignore me if I sound off the mark. Best of luck Cam.
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Your are probably way past this but, I thought I'd mention it. When jetting it is good to set & not touch the float level. An easy method I use to set mine is to (with the carb on the bench) put a piece of spare fuel line on and blow (used fuel line tastes bad) into it while tipping the carb back with the float pivot pointed up. When the air flow stops, that is your float level. On the KX the rib in the center of the float should be parallel (or almost) to the carb body but not past. You will find this matches the stock specs. Cam.
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Kawdude, You do not have to remove the tank and seat to change the needle and carb, I just pull the carb out a bit and remove the cap. This can be done by pulling the air box boot back when the clip has been loosened on the carb then popping the carb right out. Pretty simple and saves time. From what I've learned, there is NO substitute for correct jetting. As in, you will get the MOST power out of correct jetting, so if you find more power in the 2nd notch, I would keep it there and keep on working around it.
KXcam, I have tried the float height, but I will try it again, d**n I wish I knew what type of needle I have, then I would go a slot leaner. I know this for sure, when I'm on the 1st notch I'm DEAD lean. No wheelspin and the throttle acts like it is running out of gas, racing the engine.
Ah yes, the notch in the grips, I sure did it. :-) Great idea, which has helped me ALOT in the diagnose of lean and rich mixtures. The problem currently is, I'm juggling the low and mid range, gaining one and losing the other. I did a plug chop on a 162 and it came out dark grey around the BASE of the insulator. Assuming it is rich, I just started running 50:1 using MC1. So, we will see how this works out in a plug chop. The only place I can do a chop and really keep the throttle pinned is either at my Grandparents in Virgina which is like 4 hours away or the place I mentioned above, but is costly just to jet and takes an all day trip, which time is very scarse at my job. :-(
I have to take my KX to the machine shop for a new exhaust mount as it broke not one, not two, but all three mounts. And they were ALL together and fine last ride. :-( So, that will consume my free time. I'm having trouble locating a 158 main jet. Nobody around here has them. I've never thought about a KTM dealer, sounds like a plan for the pilots, as people here are like asking if I am running a moped or something like that.
My main feels pretty dialed in, but I understand the chop test. That is something I will take care of next. I will pick up the 40 & 38 next.
Help me out here for a second, I'm needing to know what needle to order for the next step leaner, it sounds like a plan but will need your help as I have NO idea how to read a needle, even after reading the justkdx report, it just confused me. ;-)
My needle reads: R1366N what would be the next step leaner?
Thanks Cam! I appreciate it. Same to you Kawdude, maybe all this info will get both our bikes screaming.
Btw, it is a spark knock from either the bike running too hot or the fuel not buring correctly (too rich usally), sometimes the timing off, in this case it sounds like a fuel issue (directly related to jetting) Anyway your engine would only be at stake cause it is a lean mixture.
Thanks for the help guys.
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Gowen,
Your bike is a '90 right? The R1366N is an OEM number, its likely that Kaw used this number before switching to the N82M type numbers that are stock in my '92. It's possible they are the same but hard to tell. The R1366N works out to a Keihin CGG. Check out sudco.com catalog under the N, they have a listing for Keihin PWK39 needles. That R number sounds a lot like the one in my old '87 CR500 (same carb). Is there any chance your needle is not stock? If you can't confirm it, it may be prudent to buy a N82M stock needle as a starting point. I think my old CR had a R1366N and it used a 40 pilot. It must be a hastle to not have a good jetting place. Any rural gravel roads in your area? Take a few runs then take off before any heat arrives. I can post the list of '92 option needles from my manual if you need it. Cam.
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Hi Cam, it's funny, I just got off the phone with Sudco. :-) I told them I need a larger diameter to lean out the 1/8-1/4 throttle. Hopefully not effect the mid-top range. The person at Sudco was very helpful in helping me design a needle that would work in the direction I led him. So, I ordered 3 needles, one a step leaner, one another step leaner, and one two steps further. Just incase. I also ordered a 40 and 38 pilot along with a 158 main. All ended up not being much over $20! Which is down right amazing, so I overnighted it, so I would have it by the weekend. I'll let you guys know how it works out. I'm assuming this will work. I hope so.
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Gowen,
Glad that they were lots of help. This was years ago, but I once put a 38 mikuni (I found it) on my maico race bike. I phoned sudco and they told me the exact jetting I needed (what they sold as their maico carb kit) over the phone. Worked perfect first time. Just for info what letter needles did you get? Cam.
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Btw, it is a spark knock from either the bike running too hot or the fuel not buring correctly (too rich usally), sometimes the timing off, in this case it sounds like a fuel issue (directly related to jetting) Anyway your engine would only be at stake cause it is a lean mixture.
Thanks for the help guys.
Interesting. The bike wasn't hot but the timing could have moved, I'll check that. If I remember correctly, it knocked at 2nd clip, 52 slowjet and surged terribly. Removed the idle surging by cranking the air screw in thus removing air and making it richer. I think I'm a half turn out. Doesn't this "half turn out" say that the slowjet is too small? Also, wouldn't idle real well so cranked the idle screw in. I'm won't argue but why would the engine knock if rich? Maybe knocking is a not good term...how about aluminum rattling quickly against aluminum.
d**nit, I have to read my previous post so I know what I did. :roll:
A little off topic but thumpertalk has good prices on jets and seem to carry all the sizes. I'll be interested in how the Sudco stuff works. Thanks again.
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An easy method I use to set mine is to (with the carb on the bench) put a piece of spare fuel line on and blow (used fuel line tastes bad) into it while tipping the carb back with the float pivot pointed up. When the air flow stops, that is your float level.
JFC! That's a great idea! So simple... :idea:
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An easy method I use to set mine is to (with the carb on the bench) put a piece of spare fuel line on and blow (used fuel line tastes bad) into it while tipping the carb back with the float pivot pointed up. When the air flow stops, that is your float level.
JFC! That's a great idea! So simple... :idea:
I've set the d**n float about 10 times, but I will check it to make sure again. :-)
Kawdude, I'll let you know how these needles work. If these guys are correct, it sounds like your problem too. Being the idle and 1/4 throttle is rich but the above range is lean or off range. I'm going to head out and run my KX for a few tests soon when these jets arrive.
Oh BTW, I was wrong about the pinging or knocking, it would be a LEAN condition. So, you are saying that you are getting more idles with a 2nd notch needle but are spark knocking in the mid range (lean), but are getting NO idle at the 3rd notch but getting a good mid range. This is what I'd try first............. Keep the 3rd range, don't fry that motor. Try to move down on the pilot and keep the needle at the 3rd notch. That way you are keeping the mid range at a richer range and going lean on the 0-1/8 range. If you need pilots, I can drop my 50 and 52 in the mail. I have no need for them as I'm way down on these.
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Just for info what letter needles did you get? Cam.
Just got the jets in. 8) I'm hoping this will be the last time I have problems with the jets.. We'll see. Anyway, this is what I've got:
CGH needle
CGK needle
CGL needle
40 pilot
38 pilot
and a 158 main.
I was also told that my needle crossed to a CGG, so I'm going to give the CGH a shot, still lean I'll give the CGK and so forth.
Thanks for the replys and help, I'll give a FULL report as soon as I give it a shot, which may be tomarrow, but more than likely Sunday.
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Gabe,
Always happy to help. That was fast from Sudco. Now that you have some jets you should be able to lick this thing. This will be long but here goes with some suggestions. Before you play with the needles you might want to try the pilots (I'd gamble and try the 38 first) first to get a good ballpark idle and smooth low end response, and then dial in the main so the plug is a dark brown (I'm not big on going too lean on the main). The reason is that the zone where the pilot and main operate overlaps the needles operating zone at each end and will effect it a bit. If you can get that pilot nailed down then you will be able to tell better how the low end transition to the new needle (straight section) feels, smooth or ratty(rich - splutters as it picks up) or doggy(lean- delay before it picks up) (nice scientific descriptions eh!). Setting the main next will help when you start playing with the needle height, and testing the 1/2 to full throttle response. For ex. I recently leaned my main to a 155 and it made the most difference at 3/4 thottle (more wheelie) where you would think the needle affects most. My bike is very electric down low, smooth from off-idle to at least 1/2 throttle, probably what yours will end up like - just with more power!! Don't forget to take a handful of disposable cheap BR8ES or B8ES for taking plug readings. Often you can clean them enough (carb cleaner & toothbrush) to use for a 2nd run. Also, when starting to work with the needles, (assuming the pilot is now set pretty good) it might be fastest to first try each different needle (clip in the center) one after another (no raising/lowering yet) to see which gives the best 1/4 to 1/2 throttle response. One should be better than the others then you can try fine tuning (raising/lowering) that one. Oh yeah! Check your plug often even if you're not reading it too much, just in case you get a white one when you're least expecting it. Don't forget too that you can take 1/4 throttle or 1/2 throttle plug runs - just takes longer but sometimes solves a mystery. There is a neat mini-graph on those sudco keihin pages that shows the throttle range where each jet operates and overlaps. Might be handly to take along. I'll look for your report when you're done. Have fun and good luck. Cam.
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Wow! A very long Sunday.. I spent from 11am to 7pm working and playing with the carburetor. A sucessful day!!!!
I started off by going down on the main jet, which helped bring in a cleaner WOT, much cleaner and much more powerful. Anyway, on to the problems:
I then went down to a 40 on the pilot, which brought the revs up alot, which I couldn't have been more happy, I turned the air screw to 1 turn out when I changed it, and turning it out more caused more idle, which I ended up bringing it out to 2 1/4 turns. Then I decided to drop to a 38 pilot. Yes, that changed alot, more idle!!! Which I still turned 2 turns out. Well, running it did good, it was still a little rich in the idle 1/8th and 1/4th range. So, I jumped to the CGH needle. Wow! I couldn't believe the diffrence on the low range. I still kept to the 2 turns out on the air screw, as it was still finding more rpms with the air screw leaning out. So, I decided to jump from the CGH to the CGK. Yes, that was the ticket guys. I have a smoooooooooooth idle and I have turned out my idle screw out about 10 turns. Which I used to have it all the way in. :-) I've never heard a smooth idle on this bike before. Very clean idle.
Here's the deal:
I put the needle in the center and it is doing GREAT! But, when I rev from an idle, it surges two or three times before going back to idling. Like what you decribed kawdude. It does NOT do it when I let off the throttle at a WOT run. Only when reving it.
So, I was assuming the needle was lean. So, I lifted the needle to the 4th notch. Surges nearly left, very faint. But, power was pretty clumsy and would not get a full clean rev through the RPM range. Anyway, so I dropped the needle back to the 3rd notch to give it a run to see the power diffrence. Wow , it had about twice the power from the 1/2 to 3/4 range. But the surges were back. Anyway, I decided to forget the surges and drop it to the 2nd notch just for the heck of it and gave it much more power and responce in the 1/2 to 3/4 range. But, the surges are still there, but not anymore than the 3rd notch. So, anyway just for kicks I decided to try a leaner needle CGL and it was too lean, it reved alot and had little power and ran bad and surged like crazy. So, I put the CGK back in and it is doing great. On the 2nd notch and it is running perfect in the RPM range, but when you give it a rev from idle, it surges a little, like a pop or a RPM jump slightly. But, to cure it, I have to lose power in the mid range.
Cam and Kawdude, I'm a little lost here, I'm running great and did a few plug tests, all coming nice brown, but only rode for a few hours. Not lean I don't think, the surges are there, Kawdude was having the same issue.
The air screw does not help the surges, only the needle, but richening the clip kills the power. Leaning the clip gives more power, but causes slihgt surging.
Ask away at the questions, I'm lost.
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Gabe,
Good work with the jetting. It sounds like you are getting very close. The surges may seem a bit weird, but now that I think about it my bike may do that a bit. When I rev it in neutral, the revs increase, decrease to idle then I get a little pop where it revs up once for a split second. I'm not absoulutley sure about that but it's got me thinking, I'll test that out next weekend. Is that what yours does? Here's something that might help. At 1/2 to full throttle the needle and main overlap a bit, more so as you approach 3/4 to full throttle. For a trial I would suggest leaning the main one more size, then you should be able to raise the CGK needle to richen the 1/2 to 3/4 area, but with the smaller main it would have more effect at 1/2 than at 3/4 so you wouldn't lose power at 3/4. Let me know how it works. Cam.
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Cam, thanks for the idea! I have a 155 laying around, so I will give it a shot today. The surges are only in neutral. If I pop the throttle, it will rev, decrease then rev again, like as if I hit the throttle a few times. It does not do it in gear unless I pull in the clutch with some RPM's. Would you think the reeds could be the cause of this? I checked the reeds a little while back and it was a little opened. So I turned them around. Just a thought...
Thanks for the input and help, I'll give the 155 a shot later this afternoon.
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Gowen,
I have always wondered if the surging is caused by the vacuum the huge KX piston must make when you rev then chop the throttle. Mine does this a bit if I chop the throttle on downhills. Again not sure if it does it in neutral but maybe I'll fire it up in the backyard tonight and see. Possibly the vacuum is grabbing a gulp of air past/under the slide, maybe forcing the slide up a tad to grab some air? Total speculation on my part!! Your reeds should be ok as the engine intake vacuum/pressure pulses will force them to work even if the tips are a bit open. Not sure what your elevation is. I ride at 2000'-6000' and mine uses a 155. I ran a 158 for years (ran great) but the 155 is noticably smoother at 3/4 to full and still a touch rich. Cam.
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I just got back from riding with a 155. It is lightly raining here, so it was somewhat muggy. Anyway, you were right, I first warmed it up with the 158 rode it a little and did great. But, was very touchy/over sensitive in the mid range, which I was assuming a little lean. I came back to the garage and switched the 158 to the 155 and then richened the needle to the center notch. Which did wonders in the mid-top range. The surging has gone down, but is still existant.
Let me know if you are having the same issue. It is when the throttle is hit and chopped. It revs, decressed the rev then kinda pops and revs slightly a few times. It does it when I chop the throttle in gear and pull in the clutch too. I will try running a tank of pure C12 to see if it helps. I'm now mixed 50/50 pump/c12.
Thanks, it's coming together finally.
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Those are the type of things I'm hearing. However, when slowing down in gear the bike d**n near jumps at every pop. It's annoying as hell and dangerous in the wet stuff.
To me if it's surging, the screw doesn't help but the needle does.. that seems to say that the circuit is lean. This may be related to the needle, clip position, main jet or float level. I know that I'm not helping.
It sounds close...I agree with Cam.
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Gabe,
Cool! Getting closer still. You might want to try raising the needle one more spot, to richen the 1/2 range and see if that helps further. Is the 1/8 to 1/2 throttle transition still smooth? That part is controlled by the straight section of the needle. With the 155, as an experiment it might not hurt to try the next richer needle with the needle lowered one spot from center to see how the bike reacts (richens the 1/4 but the 1/2 to full should stay about the same. Cam.
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Cam, the 1/8th to 1/4th is very close to smooth. As for the needle, I'll give it a shot tomarrow evening. Your help is VERY appreciated. Also, did you fire yours up to see how it sounded? Just curious.
Kawdude, this is what I'm at right now:
Air screw: 2 turns
Pilot: 38
Needle: CGK (larger diameter)
Needle Clip: 3rd
Main Jet: 155
I'm assuming that your bike is going to get VERY close to mine. Cam is the man for the problem you are having with the surges. It sounds like you need to richen the needle and then fix the powerless problem with the main jet (leaning it out). I'm betting you are going to be close to the same jetting I'm at. But, I know every bike is going to be diffrent. Keep us updated and thanks for all your input!!
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Gabe,
On your 1/8 to 1/4 throttle resonse, is it a bit ratty (not clean feeling) or does it hesitate a teeny bit? I would say that the desired response should be sort of a controlled dial-a-wheelie, lots of power very smooth and controllable (although I guess the EGore porting might influence that). I guess I am wondering if you might be a tad lean on the 1/8 to 1/4 area. That test with the next richer needle should show it that's the case or not. For the next couple of tests I'd say try the CGK raised 1 notch to richen the 1/2 to 3/4 area. Then try the next richer needle lowered 1 or 2 notches from center to richen the 1/4 to 1/2 while leaving the 3/4 to full about the same. Check your throttle response and see if your surging changes. Let me know how you make out. Once we get your bike working perfect we can gang up on Kawadude and get his dialed. Cam.
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Gabe,
I fired my bike up last night but then dogs started barking, babies started crying and wife started yelling. Will try again tonight. Cam.
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Gabe,
I fired my bike up last night but then dogs started barking, babies started crying and wife started yelling. Will try again tonight. Cam.
:shock: Opps! Sorry about that. Didn't mean to get you in trouble.
I'll give those needles a shot.
Should I order the next needle down Cam? I have a CGH, CGK, and CGL. Should I get a CGJ?
Dial-a-wheelie. Boy, I love it when the doctor orders wheelies. :D My 1/8th to 1/4th does not have much power. But, I'm thinking RPM's. Cam, I will have to get back about that one. I'm not sure. I will tell you that my KX does have a mid-over rev porting. So, it does not hit hard until close to the top. Question though, I did have the timing retarted. (just to the retard notch) would that have made a diffrence? I believe retarding is to the right or clockwise notch.
Thanks Cam, I will get back about the 1/8th dealy.
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Gabe,
Since the price and response from Sudco is so good, it might be a good idea to get the CGJ. My thinking is that you might be a bit lean in the 1/4 area hence the lack of low power. I'm guessing that you will find you have a bit of a flat spot and that it may even be contributing to the surge symptoms. Even with your porting a 500 with a powervalve should still have a heck of a great bottom end. I believe retarded timing should help the bottom end too. While you are waiting for the CGJ needle, try the CGK raised 1 notch to richen the 1/2 to 3/4 area and see how the upper end response is. If you have the time it might not hurt to try the 40 pilot back for one run and see if you still get an idle, and better yet a 1/8 to 1/4 improvement. The 38 is probably the way to go but since you have the 40 it wouldn't hurt to try it with the leaner needle and see what happens. Have fun. Cam.
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Gabe,
I was thinking that while you get the CGJ you might as well get the CGI just in case (at least that gives you the whole set for the mantlepiece display). The needles are probably cheaper than the shipping. With the 40 pilot test, I forgot to explain that since the pilot and needle (straight section) overlap at 1/8 to almost 1/2, with the leaner needle it might work ok. Again, if theres no idle then forget it, it is obviously still too rich. Also, I forgot to ask How does the bike start, hot and cold? Mine is almost always 1 kick hot or cold and I think that may be typical when jetted nice. Cam.
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Cam, it starts first kick hot or cold. At first it was quite hard to start cold, but I found that it was the stator pushing low numbers. Replacing the stator fixed it right away. So, no problem there. I'll go ahead and order the CGI & CGJ. They have been great about getting parts here, but I also paid $20 for overnight. Which in this case I'll do the same. They are only $5 a piece which beats $20 a pop from the dealer.
So far, I have it where it idles the smoothest. If I turn the air screw in 1 turn, the idle starts falling. I turned it until the idle smoothened out and then backed it a 1/4th turn.
Cam, it seems that the only way it will not surge is if I turn the air screw all the way in. It will not surge it it does not idle.
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Gabe,
That is very good information! Turning in the air screw richens the 0 to 1/4 area. That is more evidence that you may be a touch lean in the 1/8 to 1/4 area and the next richer needle (CGJ) is the direction to go. If you are 2 turns out and the 38 idles nice, the 38 is probably the right pilot and the richer needle should fix up that lean area, give you more low power and reduce (or eliminate) the surge. Cool! It seems to me that you are getting very very close. I saw your post on the WER damper. I have never riden with a damper or felt I needed one. Do they really make that much of a difference! I don't have any dunes or really long fast areas where I live. Cam.
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All excellent information guys. I especially enjoy the part on getting rid of the surges and I agree that richening the mix via the screw effects it.
So what I understand that to remove the surges keep going richer. If if quits surging great if it doesn't the 1/8 to 1/4 area of the needle maybe incorrect. That would explain the surging difference on mine when I dropped the clip to the 3rd notch. It was surging badly and some knocking.
Thanks again.
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Alright! That sounds like a deal to me! I'll get those needles ordered and hopefully have them here by Friday and get back to you about the status. I'm going to a big local riding area Sunday and will have it worked out before then.
As far as a Steering Stabilizer. I've never ridden with one all my life until now. And seriously, it is a great investment. I ride alot of trails with rocks, ruts, sand, mud and roots type and it holds the wheel in it's place and makes it very easy to control in the rough parts as you don't have to hold the steering wheel or fight it. It is worth it if you ride in places where your front end would make sudden movements (sand/mud) or be hit hard by solid objets (roots, ruts, trees, rocks ect. ect.).
Again, thanks for all the input. I'm betting you are right on about the surging and I hope we get it taken care of.
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Kawadude,
If your interested we could probably start looking at the jetting on your bike. For a start it would be a big help if you could post your riding conditions, elevation, temp, humitiy etc, the jetting you started with, and the jetting you have now. Also inlcude the bike year, and the engine modifications you have made, pipe porting reed etc. Maybe a description of how the bike runs. When Gowen gets his new needles, I think he will have his sorted out pretty quick. It's very close. I am not possitive that his settings will work for you as is, but what we have learned should be a huge help. Let me know. Cam.
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Cam, I ordered a CGJ as they do not make a CGI. It will be here tomarrow and I will have an answere to you by Friday night, hopefully. I'm assuming this will do the trick.
I've decided I will never go according to paper again. Meaning, I will never jet my bike according to a FMF's spec page or the service manual. :-)
This is FMF's chart for my KX500.
170 Main, 62 Pilot, 2nd clip, & 1.5 on the air screw @ 32:1 50/50 pump/race fuel, Sea Level - 1500, and at 70 degrees.
This is what my KX is at now.
155 Main, 38 Pilot, 3rd clip, & 1.5 to 2.0 on the air screw @ 50:1 50/50 pump/race fuel, Sea Level and somewhere in the 70-80 degree mark.
Anyway, lets get Kawdude's KX fixed up.
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Cam, I came up with an idea, I will record my bike at 1 1/2 turns VS. 2 1/2 turns.
Note: 2 1/2 turns idles the best @ a 38 Pilot.
First Clip: 1 1/2 Turns. Just fired up let run for 10 minutes before clipping sounds:
All hits on the throttle are nothing more than 1/4th throttle, one 1/2 throttle hit, and then a small 1/8th hit later on in the clip.
It seems to only do it in the 1/4th range to the 1/2 range.
Second Clip: 2 1/2 turns on the air screw. Seems the same! It did not help it at all.
Let me know what you guys think.
http://www.matchmakerautoservices.com/kx500/oneandhalf.wav
http://www.matchmakerautoservices.com/kx500/twoandhalf.wav
You can click to listen or right click and click "Save Target As" and put it on your desktop and listen too.
EDIT: Cam, listening to the sound clips, I'm thinking it is out in the Clip position. According to Sudco's chart, the diameter controls mainly the idle to 1/4th. The clip is the 1/4th and up. and the diameter is the 1/2 and up. According to the sounds 1/4th and 1/2 are the main place for surging.
Also, it ONLY surges on the return to idle, it DOES not surge while using the gas.
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The surges on mine are on the let off also. Are you just cranking and letting the throttle retun to zero. That sounds just like mine. The second sounds lean to me. Too lean...no idea!
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Kawdude, yes, I'm just chopping the throttle. Hit and let off. Here's the frustration:
I worked on it this evening. Starting with the needle. I got my CGJ in. Installed it, and it was the same, same surging. Soo, I decided to go back one to CGH, still surged. Went back to the stock needle... Still surged. I then decided that it was not the diameter. So, I installed the CGK I was using before. I then dropped the clip one to the 4th notch.Still surged.. Same as the recordings. All the same. I have yet to try choking the carb to see if that clears the surges. The only way I've cleared them is by richening it to NO idle.
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Gabe,
That Sudco chart is pretty handy. If you really analyse it you can get a good sence of what jets operate where and also where the action of 2 jets overlap. Did you get your needle yet? The sound clips are very cool. Invaluable for diagnosing the surges. My bike has sounded the same. I'll try it tommorow morning (I forgot today) but your sound clips sound very familliar!! At 2-1/2 turns for the best idle it normally would indicate going one more leaner on the pilot, but in this case I think it may be better (since it is very close) to stay with the 38 until the needle is closer. I've never heard of a KX500 with a 38 pilot but it is stock for some CR500's so not unreasonable for the dispacement. I bet that the Eric Gorr porting and all your mods are making the engine run more efficient, hence it doesn't need to be as rich in the mixture. I'll tell you my idea on the surges. If you have ever turned the gas off on your bike and let it idle, when it starts running out of fuel the jetting gets very lean and the idle takes off uncontrollably - and sounds just like the surges. My hunch (humour me I may be waay off base) is that when the throttle is chopped the engine is still trying to pull fuel in (big vacuum) and the last mixture available before the slide actually closed (say 1/4 to 1/8 throttle decreasing) was supplied by the straight section of the needle. You are right about the clip position if the fuel was supplied at the 1/4 and past. A good test for that would be to raise your present needle maybe 2 clip positions and see (heck record!) the difference. If you are going in the right direction the 2-position change should make a obvious improvement to the surges. Will you get a chance to do some testing this weekend? You may have done this already, but it would be worth trying each clip position on that needle to see if any improvements show up (more low end dial-a-wheelie). Let me know the results of your next tests. All the best. Cam
PS. those sound byte are a really good idea!
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Gabe,
Those are good test result (just not what we wanted). Did you try riding it with the CGJ? What slide # is in your carb? So much for my theory.....d**n now I'm really curious. It's dark here or I would go fire up my bike right now. For sure I'll try it early in the morning. Cam.
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Cam, I did get the needle. I have yet to try a dial-a-wheelie today, but will tomarrow or Sunday. But, the---in the garage---test did show that the surges are still there and have yet to change. I moved back to the CGK and dropped the clip (richened) one notch and it did not change it. But, it did sound better, cleaner. Let me know what you think. The diameter did not seem to fix it, as I kept moving back in the needle CGK,CGH,CGG (or stock), and it still had the same issue. I've fixed the surging by richening the pilot or air screw to the point of rough running and no idleing.
Thanks for the help, I'm going to work on the dial-a-wheelie and get back with serious results, not the garage type. :-) It's getting too dark now.
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Gabe,
Those are good test result (just not what we wanted). Did you try riding it with the CGJ? What slide # is in your carb? So much for my theory.....d**n now I'm really curious. It's dark here or I would go fire up my bike right now. For sure I'll try it early in the morning. Cam.
I appreciate your help! I'm not worried about the needles, as I could always use extras for other bikes or for another rejet or something useful. I sure have not tried to ride it yet, as it is also dark here too. But, will try it tomarrow after work for sure. I will start with the CGK on the 4th clip, then jump to the CGJ at the 3rd, then hit the 4th and get back with you about the exact deal with it.
Also, I'm using a #7 slide.
Thanks again and let me know about your idle, I'm on my toes about it.
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Gabe,
I fired it up this morning and guess what!! My bike surges more than yours does, way more. No less than 6 surges per rev-up and once I counted 12 when it was still a bit cold!!!!! I think it has always done this, perhaps ever since I jetted it way back when - can't remember. This could be a trait of the bike when it's jetted close (maybe). Anyway I guess I never worried about it since it runs perfect all the time. That surging is probably the same as I get when coasting downhill at speed. Again I guess I never worried about it since I rarely coast downhill with the throttle closed. This actually got better when I went from 58 to a 55 pilot a few months ago. Sorry I should have tried my bike sooner and saved you some testing time. The sound bytes are what got me thinking. It might be best to ignore the surges for now and work on getting some more power in the low end throttle range. I still think that new (richer) needle will be the ticket but only your testing will tell for sure. I'm taking the kids out riding tomorrow so I'll be wearing out 1st gear again. Cam.
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:worship: :worship: Cam!
Thanks!! That is the ticket I was needing. Knowing your bike is doing the same deal has let a load off my mind. I am goin out riding tomarrow and will give you a report of the needle swaps and everything else that occures. Will work on the dial a wheelie and see if bringing the CGK to a CGJ and so forth! Thanks again! Wow.. :drunk:
Now Kawdude can get his fixed up too.
Thanks again Cam!
Gabe,
Those are good test result (just not what we wanted). Did you try riding it with the CGJ? What slide # is in your carb? So much for my theory.....d**n now I'm really curious. It's dark here or I would go fire up my bike right now. For sure I'll try it early in the morning. Cam.
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Hi Guys,
I have been viewing this project for a while, actually since getting my 2004 in sept. I bought it since they were (for stupid reasons) going to be discontinued. I had a 91 and loved it, missed the hooligan power rush! Bike was hard to get, called over 20 dealers and wound up getting it in MD, wish I could have got it closer...
Well my bike was running rich (I broke it in as recomended) all I got was black plugs even after it was broke in, though I think some of it was the plug. I haven't been riding it since the first week I got it and went to my dad's (5 hrs. away but 110 acres).
Today was the day I was going to do something about it, I yanked off the carb and checked the float with a caliper, it was fine. I had jets I ordered from pro flo (took 2 weeks to get them because of hurricaned in Fl.) I probably made too many changes at once however. My main problem was (besides the black plugs) was it would not idle for crap, maybe 3 sec's with the air at 2 1/2 and the idle screw in all the way. I dropped the pilot from a 58 to a 52, main from a 168 to a 165, and the clip up a notch (2nd from top). I also cut the gas, I was using camII 110 octane straight with 40:1 H1R. I used 1 gallon of that mix and a gallon of super unleaded mis 93 octane.
I started it up and took the choke off right away, it idled by itself, but fast. Turned the slide screw out 2 turns at least and it still idled like a dream! Took off after warming it up some and then rode easy a little bit to get it up to temp then cleared her out. What I can say is that it runs incredible, wheelie any gear and moving dirt like a grader. No hesitation, idle is still a little too fast, and guess what, since day one I have the same thing you all have, the dreaded surging to idle, must be the nature of the beast. Sure glad it has good brakes! Nailing it down the street on the back tire in 4th then chopping the throttle it does not slow down quickly by itself, it will do it in any gear and neutral. Hit the gas, and just like gowens audio, the same thing.
After letting it cool down I pulled the plug, and expecting to see black (the usual) I saw something way different. It was tan, not white, not black, and this was not a plug chop. It was dry, even the metal on the bottom was clean and dry, before there would be oil on it. I hope I am not too lean somewheres. It ran perfect, scary as a matter of fact, except for the surging thing which it always did. Perhaps the carb is too small for the bike? I mean 250's run 38's. this is only 2x as big, and 1 mm more. I have seen 125's with 39's on them! Somewhere down the road it would be nice to try the 41mm, price is not bad (low 200's) and I think it belongs on there anyways. The temp here today was 68 and dry, I am at around 1200 ft. If I keep the jetting the same I will not run it in colder weather, only warmer or I might try changing the main back to stock (168) if I can get a tool to get it out without removing the carb again. Overall a HUGE improvement!
Thanks Guys,
Rob
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Rob, that's awesome. Thanks for the input. I'm still in shock about the surging. But a good shock. :-)
Well, an update on the work: I went riding today, had an awesome time. Rode for 5 hours non-stop. I have to say... I love this bike. It ran soooooo nice. Idled! But, after about 3 hours of riding, I did start to notice that 1/4th throttle was pretty lean. When I'd put the throttle at 1/4th, it would absolutely hit the peak RPM and slide everywhere immediately. But, it was not a healthy REV. It felt very lean and uncontrolable. So, I hopped off and turned the air screw in a full turn. It did not help, but hurt the idle a little. It was ONLY at 1/4th throttle. I'm assuming the needle needed to be moved from the CGK to the CGJ. Then, after another hour, the 1/4th was still lean, the half and full throttle felt like it was not near as powerful. Dial-a-wheelie was not working out so great. I'd really have to full throttle it HARD to keep a wheel up. So, I'm thinking it was starting by the needle diameter. As I have the clip on the 4th. It's been a great day! I had so much fun. I felt like I was riding a 250 for a while, until the lean symptoms came out.
Anyway, only two problems of the day. First: As soon as I kicked it into gear, the clutch cable snapped right at the lever. Anyway, thanks to a lot of bolts and hardware I was able to rig something. Second: I busted a pipe mount again. I'm thinking I need to find a new welder as this is not working out. Keeps busting.
Anyway, thanks for everybodys help. I need to work on my jetting a little, but nothing major. It ran great, except that one spot that was a little scary due to over sensitive throttle at the 1/4th.
Would you guys think it is the needle diameter?
Thanks
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Gabe,
As far as all my research goes it seems that the 500 is a bear to jet, even if you do it can change with the weather. I really don't remember having any problems with my '91, always ran good as far as I know. Too bad you don't have an a/f meter on it, that sounds like it would be invaluable to getting it perfect, you would be able to read the mixture at the pipe. By the way, what color were your plugs? They do tend to give you a lot of info.
Also, and possibly what could help with the surging thing is the slide. Maybe try getting the richer slide, according to Gorr's website here is the breakdown of what effects what:
Closed to 1/8 throttle air screw and pilot/slow jet
1/8 to 1/4 throttle: air-screw, pilot/slow jet, and throttle slide
1/4 to 1/2 throttle: throttle slide and jet needle
1/2 to full open: jet needle, spray-bar/needle jet, main jet, and air jet
Seems like the slide plays a major role in a variety of throttle openings, dunno, but it's a thought. Maybe sudco has them for $10, might be worth a try....
Looking back through the years, I had almost 20 bikes, and I can still remember my first mx'er 1982 rm 125. That ran perfect from day 1, In the winter in the snow and on 90+ degree days nothing ever phazed it.
Lastly, did you ever try boyesen reeds in it? Or a reed spacer? I think somewhere is the answer to getting the surging solved.
Reguards,
Rob
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Gabe,
Glad you had a good day! Did you try the richer needle or just ride? Was one mine yesterday, definitely surges worse than yours but I never notice when I'm riding. Sweet bike, I'll put up with the surges! My boysens and reedspacer don't alter the surging at all (make power smoother only). I don't think the KX is a bear to jet, but it doesn't necessarily respond as crisp as other bikes. At altitude (6000'+) mine is the best running bike of the group I ride with. The KTM's barely run. It's fun being able to outstart the e-start bikes. Cam.
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Rob,
Glad the jetting info here was helpfull. I think you might be a touch lean on your 52 pilot, given your altitude and temp. There is a jetting chart on this site that is really close. I arrived at my jetting years ago with lots of testing and it matches the chart exactly (who'd have guessed). As for the larger carb, I think one of the reasons they don't go much larger is that the venturi doesn't work as well at low airflow, ie going slow, one of the reasons that road-bikes with 40mm and larger carbs have mostly gone to fuel injection. That is why the even the 39mm we have benefits from the "power now" wing a bit (I'm told - haven't tried it) to remove some of the low-air flow turbulence. I think the big KX would really benefit from a carb with a throttle position sensor and electronic power valve like some of the new ones have. Cam.
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Cam, I was having too much fun to try the diffrent needles, but I just got back from working on the KX and am having to get some welding done cause the frame busted another pipe mount, also my radiator cracked and is leaking. Got radiators and have the frame torn down and ready to be fixed. I also have to order a new rear tire (installed new in July and is worn down) and chain and sprokets (busting teeth, but have all lasted a year). But, all will be in a few days and I will be out testing further this week.
I'm pretty sure you are right about the needles, as it is lean in the 1/4 range ONLY. I have the frame apart now, but will have it fixed today.
Speaking of a throttle position sensor, would that be possible ina KX? I've seen them in my CR and YZ, but never thought about the KX.
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Gabe,
Glad to hear you were having fun. Too much testing can get tedious! Besides, sometimes if you have a mild lean condition it is hard to tell exactly and your impression or gut feeling of the engine response over a few rides is the best clue. Unfortunately that TPS needs the newer digital ignitions to work. It would be cool since apparently, for optimum power, a 2-stroke likes being on the lean side up to full throttle then being a bit over-rich when at full throttle, stuff you cant do with regular carb/jetting. The new bikes have this so they can pop an electronic power valve(confusing - its an extra jet in the carb) open at full throttle to richen it up. Look at a new CR250 they have both (I think). Be nice to have but I think we are stuck. Hey we still have waay more HP than a CR250 any way you look at it. Cam.
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Your right about the power, and we will continue. 4 Smokes will be the thing, 2 strokes you can tell your kids about as california will lead the pack in getting rid of all of them! They already did in their state, you can't even buy a weedwhacker that isn't electric or 4 stroke. I think 2006 (as far as I know) will bring radical changes to our world. Honda might be ahead of the pack in getting ready, but kawi is planning the 450 release. I almost bought a, dare I say, yAmAhA wr450 instead of the beast. I just love the 2 stroke wild *ss big bore power, torque is the best. I doubt the 450 can be as good as a hooligan bike as the "Beast"
By the way I am RexRob becuase I also have a zrx1200r, my favorite street bike I have ever owned, the powerband is incredible. I have alwaysed loved big bikes since discovering them. I had zx11's hayabusa etc, the rex is sweet.
Well my plan for the 500 now is to go back to factory 168 main, my problems must have been fouled plugs from break in, and a very rich low speed circuit. I spend most of my time at low speed at WOT, but during break in i was restrained, rich was good. I should have changed the plug at my dad's again but didn't. It would break up from 3rd gear on, 4th and 5th was BaD. I thought most of it was jetting, it was a fouled plug. Last run it really ran, but tan plug. Again, no hesitation or bog, it ripped. You should see my driveway, looks like a drag strip! Black stripes all the way down. I am going back to the 168, maybe 170, it's getting cooler here. I will leave the needle where it is, pilot will be a last resort for now as It idles fantastic. Midrange 1/2 throttle was great, as all ranges were but I do want to save the engine, will check the plug frequently. I just want to thank Gowen and Cam and Kawadude for all their input, it has been invaluable. This is a great thread!
Reguards,
Rob
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I forgot to add that one day I will try the 41 pwk, If anything gulps air it is the 5hundred, there is no 4 stroke that can gulp more that I know of, 4 strokes only do it half as much.
I will post all related info as it comes, but I do know it will be next year. Now if I could get her to wheelie at 1/2 throttle in 5th, I'd be in nervana!
Fuel injection would be great, especially direct injection, that is where true power lies, but like I said 2 stroke development is going to be a thing of the past. Ther has been a lot of hype about 4 smoke power, a leading Mfr. stated Hp figures that even formula1 said was impossible. 2 stroke has not reached it's peak yet! How long have they been around? Oh well, take your 5hunny and show 'em what a Real motor can do!
Reguards,
Rob
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Rexrob,
Not really a jetting topic but for a plug try the BPR8ES. THe "P" protruded nose helps it run cleaner, and they are cheap at Lordco or other. Mine last a season and aid in starting (1 kick hot or cold). THe ZXR1200 is fast. Why no 1/2 throttle wheelie in 5th? Should do it. Cam.
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Cam, I've had alot of success using the EIX plug. During all my jetting woes, I believe I've only used two and that is only cause I wanted to change it, it did not foul.
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I have been running the br8eix like Gowen, well ever since the br8eg was black and wet, and the eix was black and wet, now I need to change the jetting. I have been doing a lot of thinking and I may go to the 55 pilot. Team green says for 2002 kx500 with my alt. and temps (I won't ride below 65) 2nd clip (which I have) 170 main, and 55 pilot. Sound good? Maybe burning more fuel will give me more power, if I can do it cleanly. Hate to pull the carb off again, but I am a perfectionist by nature. I don't have a 170 right now either. I have the 55. Need to grind the screwdriver down that I used for the pilot swap so it doesn't take any metal out of the passage, had me worried... The weird thing is that the reccomended plug was a 9 series NGK. I am not going to 9. Thanks cam for the sugguestion on the extended nose one.
The bike will only wheelie 5th full throttle little tug, 5th is FAST, stock gearing. 4th will do it on a roll on power wheelie, 3 rd is radical, 2nd is death defying, 1st, well you better be real good or put a wheel on your helmet. This is on pavement, I can ride on the road I live on, everyone does and I have never seen a cop up here, ever. We don't have a 1/4 mile or even a 1/8 mile straight, maybe a 16/th. Stopping has always been my problem, kinda used to the zrx brakes.
Wind up overshooting and looking for a way out, which I have done quite well. My 91 was the same wheelie wise, and I had that ported with rad valve and psi pipe. Where I used to live when I had the '91 there was a railroad grade about 1/2 mile away. I decided to ride the bike up the streets to get there. On the road that leads right into the grade there were 2 guys working on locking their hubs in their pickup. I went by them in 5th, yanked the bars and nailed it, the bike came staright up, My feet came off the pegs like superman, somehow I got her down and didn't loop it, I still do not know how I did that!!!!! I will try to get the changes done this weekend and let you know how I made out. Good luck Gowen and thanks Cam!
Rob :blowup:
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I've been very happy with the results so far with the jetting. I've got ALOT of work to do with the KX now, but have the parts ordered, the mounts welded and should be ready this weekend. Anyway, I will get around to it. I just had to refill my C12, so I will start to run pure C12 instead of a 50/50 mix and see how this works.
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No updates yet, until today.. I took the KX out today to the local sand pit today to do some drag racing, trails, ect. mainly in the sand. It has not rained in a week or so, so the ground was very dusty and the air was over 80 degrees. Hot for a Halloween day I have to say, anyway no humidity or at least much. Well, I took the KX off and gave it a run and it felt very sensitive in the mid range, very lean. But, I had not changed anything from the last run. But, weather and air I guess make a hell of a diffrence. Anyway, starting with the air screw, it made no diffrence, I could get the idle up, but the low-er range was VERY sensitive. So, I ended up lifting the needle one more (5th clip). Man that worked wonders. Anyway, I ran the tank out of gas and decided to run my mix of pure C12 and MC1 (50:1). Yes, the KX (or mine) is made to run of streight race fuel. Very good responce. Very fast running machine once tuned well. The surges are there, but not as much. Idle is the same and it is great!
Anyway, for the question:
Where do you think I should go when my needle is sitting on the 5th notch? The main and the pilot I believe are great. After the 5th notch, it was awesome. Should I put it back on the 4th when the weather cools down again?
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Gabe,
Been reading throught the past posts to remember what settings you are at: 155 main, 38 pilot. Is your last ride results with the richer CGJ needle? Let me know. Cam.
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Cam, I believe so, but don't remember. Sorry, but I will take the carb apart. My YZ250's linkage locked up and I have to rebuild it and decided to check the linkage on my KX and saw that is was cracked and majorly worn out. So, I have a spare bike and took it off and am waiting on swingarm, linkage, and shock bearings. Also, had my throttle cable go out and my air filter... So, waiting on a few replacement parts which should be in tomarrow or so. Once up, I will write another report and do some needle swapping. Cam, I thought I was at a 148?? But, I forgot.. I'm sorry, I've been soo swamped with work I've lost it. Anyway, thanks for your help... But where did Kawdude go to?
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Opps, you are right, a 155, I think I'm on the CGJ needle. But I need to check. I think I will try Sudco for another needle.
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I thought I'd post some info for you guys.
I just bought a '99 KX500 2 days ago and have some printed info on jetting. My bike has a new top end, entirely new cylinder (not resleeved), Revloc auto clutch, ect.
The info I have says my plug gap is: 32/1000
Stock jetting 168/58
Jetting set at 165/55
My factory manual says stock is 175/62 :shock:
I imagine that would be way too rich, unless you compensated by using a high needle position. The stock needle position is 3, indicating that's probably too much jet from the factory, especially for high alt.
I do know quite a bit about tuning from jetting multiple bikes over the years, as you go up in elevation you need to lean out the mixture. I am in South Texas, RIGHT AT sea level. 165 seems good, although I will probably move the needle up one position (lower clip position) to richen it up just a bit.
I've been doing research for a few hours on surging on decel where the engine will keep kicking even if the throttle is totally cut. This is a little bit dangerous if the terrain is technical and you're not going in a straight line.
WOULD GOING TO A LARGER PILOT JET SOLVE THIS PROBLEM?
Surging on the low end is a sign of being too lean, would simply swapping out to a larger pilot solve this issue?
I haven't had my bike for more than a few days but when I cut the throttle I want it to stay cut.
The only other issue I have with my bike is poor idle.
The plug it calls for is a BR8EG
It comes pre-gapped at .024
A wide gap like .032 is out of spec according to the manual and will draw a lot more energy from the coil for it to fire.
So what I'll do is I'll get a BR8EG and gap it out to the maximum suggested in the manual, which is .7mm - converts into .0275"
I'm hoping that will allow for a lower, more stable idle.
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/apps/motorcycles/make4.asp?id=4269&type=reg
As for the hiccup/surging/kicking when the throttle is cut, I have a hard time believing that is something these bikes "just do", I know with 4 strokes they come calibrated lean from the factory and popping on decel is very common, richening up the pilot will solve that. Will richening the pilot on this bike prevent it from surging on decel?
Would turning in the air screw a half turn improve this?
It's too late to go outside and experiment, or I definitely would. :lol:
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Hi Glenn, I have put about a month of research into getting the surges to leave. It is possible to remove the surging, first by running a fat pilot and by running a rich needle height. Those are your only options, I am not toying around with a Boyesen Rad Valve and a PVL ignition, I will find out how this effects the surging and what have you. I hope this helps, if you are surging, I would suggest bringing up the pilot until it quits or calms down, then start on the needle height. But you will sacrifice your idle. Idle will come and be strong when the jetting is perfect, but then you will have surges. The big CR does it slightly also. Anyway, hope this helps, ask away at the questions if you want specific answeres. KXCam should be around soon too, he is the expert in this area. Thanks
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Why would I have to compensate with the needle position?
Isn't the surging due to the pilot circuit being lean?
What do you mean by sacrificing the idle, do I have to go so rich to get rid of the problem that the bike won't even idle afterwards?
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Why would I have to compensate with the needle position?
Isn't the surging due to the pilot circuit being lean?
What do you mean by sacrificing the idle, do I have to go so rich to get rid of the problem that the bike won't even idle afterwards?
Glenn, I'm with you, I would have thought that the surging is due to a lean pilot. But, in this case, I'm assuming vacuum due to the mass of the piston. This really sounds stupid, but I've tried everything! I can get an idle with no surging, but end up having to get a longer idle screw. To completely eliminate the surging, it seems that richening the pilot mixture does not completely help, but bringing the needle a step richer does. They work together in this regard. But, you might have better luck, I was doing testing on the east coast at sea level and about 80-100 degrees. Now we are down to the 60s, but still crisp jetting and a little lean at times, but can always compensate with the air screw or needle clip.
A few of us folks that have chipped information about Jetting have all decided that the surging is a GOOD sign and means your jetting is just about right on.
Also, with the pilot rich and needle rich it effects about 20% of the power due to incorrect mixtures of the fuel/air. With that in mind, it's all up to preference, 20% is a huge amount, but the big KX already makes too much power, so most people don't care :wink:. But, I like to squeeze every ounce of power out of my bikes and the biggest improvement in power is the jetting.
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Hi Glen,
Welcome to the jetting forum. Yes the surging is a bit of an enigma. When your jettings lousy there is no surge, but as soon as you start getting close the surging appears. I know it shouldn't surge but I'm not sure what the fuss is about (ok I know it's annoying but I just got used to it to the point that I forgot it does it - ask Gowen). Mine is probably the worse offender I have come across but it doesn't bother me at all when riding. I suppose if you normally coast through corners it might be an issue, but its way more fun and the big KX loves a handful of throttle in the corner with a big wheelie out of it. I do notice it coasting down mountain roads but then I don't care. I know it's not much of an answer. If you are willing to do some testing I would be happy to lend any advice I can. Two things I would like to test are intake volume changes and different carb types. Both tough to do. Cam
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Thanks for all the good information. I think I finally tuned it in.
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I have to say, the KX is a bitch to tune, but once tuned... wow!
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You KX500 guys are not alone with having problems jetting the PWK. I have a 2000 Honda CR 500R I put a Sudco PWK 41mm Pro on and so far have gone down to a 45 pilot and still can't get an idle without the slide/idle screw all the way in and like 2.5 turns out on the AS. Anything over a 52 pilot and I have to hold the throttle open because it will not idle.
I find the jetting odd with the PWK 41mm needing smaller jets than my PJ 38mm, but I think it has something to do with the design and the PWK getting a better vacuum signal to the jets.
I have the DGH needle which I think is too rich in there right now on the 2nd clip. With a 52/172 jetting and 3rd clip it spooged out every connection in the exh system. It eventually fouled a BR8EIX plug too. I tried 52/170 jetting and still spooged, but barely got an idle with the slide screw all the way in and like 2.5 out on the AS.
I've got a few PJ carb needles (Honda part numbers) I'm going to try and I'm going to buy some smaller pilot jets to see what goes. I will keep you posted on that progress. I also got a N82P needle CROGG off ATM sent me from a KX500 I'm going to test out.
For now I stuck the stock PJ 38mm on and it runs fine with it set to 55 pilot, 4th clip on the stock needle, and 170 main. :?
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2kHondaCR500R, have you checked with Armpump over at CR500riders.com (http://www.cr500riders.com)? He runs one of those PWK carbs and has it dialed spot on.
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2kHondaCR500R, have you checked with Armpump over at CR500riders.com (http://www.cr500riders.com)? He runs one of those PWK carbs and has it dialed spot on.
I haven't asked him directly, but anytime I post a "what is your PWK jetting settings" I get flamed with "no one bike will be jetted the same" and I do know that is true because of their porting, sea level, and mods, but I never got a base line to jet from over there because of that. It's all been trail and error for me on the PWK.
The jetting is too rich all the way around where I have it right now. Thursday I'll put the PWK back on, drop the jetting, try the KX500 needle, and the PJ/Honda needles to see which is best. I'll post back with results so we can compare how similar/different the CR500 is to the KX500 jetting.
:D
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Sounds like a trick machine you got there chap! You'll be hanging to get it sorted.
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Having just read this whole thread it sounds like alot of hours have gone into jetting some of these bikes, reflecting on the time spent would it be better to take the bike to a dyno and get it tunned there?
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If the dyno was at the same altitude you going to be riding bike at!
I think dyno's are better suited for looking a power curves and hp!
What would be nice would be EGT Exhaust Gas Temp gage so you could tweak your engine, just like you do in an airplane!
Alan :wink:
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Hi All
Here?s my stats; 2000 KX500, Pingel petcock, 5/16 fuel line, rebuilt carb, float height set to 16mm and verified with homemade fuel level tube thingey, clean air filter, pilot 55, air screw 1? turns out, DEF jet needle in the 2 position, 170 main, it?s a little rich for now, but will adjust after I get the idle/needle jetting right. Elevation 1400 to 2,000 feet, temp???? My thinking at the time was ?I got the pilot jet dialed in so on to the needle diameter?. First it had a N89D, way too lean just above idle and way too rich between ? to ? throttle! Bike only ran good at WOT. Couldn?t find data on this part number so I switched to Sudco as they have a nice chart that explains what the numbers mean and at $5.25 a piece who would argue. They recommended a DGH; Bull?s-eye, HUGE improvement! Bike never ran so good but surging was also huge. As soon as I?d chop the throttle bike would go into the ?surge mode? maybe 15 times before enough speed was lost and the motor was back to idle. But I new I was on the right track as performance was unbelievable, (I hope you believe me). Next; 58 pilot. Way too rich at idle with 3 ? turn out on the air screw and it didn?t? help the surging at all; switched back to 55 and 1 ? turns out. Next; went smaller in the needle diameter from the DGH to a DGG. This cut the surging in half! That inspired me to again go to a smaller diameter needle. Only problem is no one makes a DGF, had to go with a DEF to get the next size smaller diameter. While this is one step smaller in diameter, it is also two clip position shorter in the functional L1 length. So what-the-heck I thought I would try it any way. Installed it in the middle position, (3), and went riding. Surging was reduced but not as dramatically as the ?DGH to DGG? needle change. Also caused bike to start running rich, (rough), in the 1/3 throttle range and a drop in needle position helped some but still feels like it?s too rich. Okay that?s where jetting is at today and I?m planning to drop the needle again to the one position, (hope it doesn?t need to drop further as I?m out of position). Are you still with me? My question is what needle are you running on your stock bike? Gowen and KXcam22 helped me out by answering a question I had in another topic, ?who makes custom needles?, answer; JD jetting. But what got my curiosity was a reply that I?m out there on the jetting and the fact that the direction I?m headed is running out of needles.
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Zee, this is how I went about jetting my bike: #1...
Pilot-
Unscrew the pilot screw until I got most idle. If the airscrew was more than 2.5 turns out, I replaced with a smaller pilot jet. I did that until I got the maximum idle. Then I moved to the needle. I did that by the seat of my pants or.. dial a wheelie (most wheelie power 5th gear). If I was at the top of the needle, I'd go leaner, if I was at the bottom of the needle, I'd go with a richer needle. I kept doing that until I felt good about it. Then moved to the main jet. I kept going down until I got a CRISP rev when hitting the throttle. Also, until the smoke cleared. Take it for a few laps WFO. Keep going down on the main jet until you get that perfect hit,clean.
Continues next post:
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Continued:
I drag race my KX500 in hillclimbs and drag runs. My KX surges pretty bad. That is normal! That is saying your jetting is right on. Don't worry about the surges. Cam and I have decided that surges are a sign of your jetting being close. I can say my jetting is perfect now, but it costed me a year or more to get it right.
Also a trick for the mainjet is to warm your bike up, do a FULL on wide open throttle test with a BRAND new plug. pull it out and look at the color. Brown is good, any grey or black indicate it is too rich. I pull my plugs out now and I have a hint of richness now, but mostly brown. NO black. But that is due to me running it rich due to the systems I am running now.
Good luck and let us know if we can help.
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Zee,
Sounds like you know what you are doing so it should be quick to dial your bike in sweet. You'll know when you are there when the powerband suddenly get super smooth, the dial-a-wheelie and your bike will start 1-2 kicks hot or cold! First some more data.
1. What is your average temp & humidity and you say about 2000' where you ride.
2. What fuel/oil do you run and at what ratio.
Also one thing to note is on the PKW39 the main and needle overlap quite a bit in the 3/4-full throttle range. Before you can really get the needle exact you need to narrow the main jet down. The 170 will be rich and will affect your needle testing as low as 2/3 throttle and up. As Gowen suggests you would be best to get the main dialed before you proceed. Then after we help you find the right needle it's best to do a double check on the main. Gowen's plug run advice is exactly the way you want to do it. I usually try to find a bit of a hill to put some load on the engine. Also the surging thing seems to be a sign that your jetting is on. Mine is the worst offender but I don't notice it anymore, I just keep the throttle mostly open all the time!! The jetting chart is really close. I arrived at my jetting after years of tuning and it matches the chart. I would suggest using the chart setting as a starting point and then we can fine tune the needle. I'll analyse where you are with the needle right now and post back. Cam.
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Ok, seems theres a few of us that have the same problem. My kx is jetted very lean and it stilll runs rich. the main is a 160, the pilot is a 45 and the needle is a 89. I'm in arizona and the altitude is about 1300 feet. I bought the bike new in 2003 and it ran really rich then. as far as power goes its great, it walks right past my buddies crf450 and my other buds cr500. power isn't a problem. You guys think maybe Keihn made the needle seat too large or something? I replaced the ignition coil, rewound the stator. I haven't changed the cdi but since the bike starts well and runs strong I don't see the point. I get about 50 miles on a plug, even the hotter 7.
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Dennis,
Check your needle, the N82M is stock. It might be a typo but I don't think the 89 is correct (unless they changed it in later years). Also the 45 pilot sound too lean (possibly to compensate for a rich needle?). Does your bike idle? Asside from that I feel that the stock KX needle has a too small diameter on the straight part. We compensate by running it all the way down (like mine) but that doesn't help the 1/4 throttle area as much as it could. I can't offer a tested solution yet. I plan to test a bunch of leaner needles this spring but am waiting (and waiting) for an LCL/ACL tear to heal (or surgery - should know next week) so can't ride yet to test (heck I can't even kick the bike over). As a start, setting your jetting to the chart is very close. Then tune from there. 50 miles on a plug isn't so good. I get a whole season on an BP8ES. If your jettting is close the 7 should show a white too-lean burn and the 8 might show a dark-brown slightly too-rich burn. Also when the surges show up you are getting close. What oil & ratio do you run? It affects jetting a bit. Hope this helps. Cam.
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Hello group.
Seems jetting is an ongoing problem with the big kaw. I haven't sorted mine out yet. I'm running a stock bike, fmf pipe, 160 main, 55 pilot, 2nd notch on the needle which is an 82m, the orig. I run rich. the altitude here in casa grande is about 1200 feet. Its getting warm outside so I guess the rich thing will just get worse as the air thins.
I'm thinking of going to a K&N filter, has anyone tried one? None are listed in the Dennis Kirk cat or the Rocky Mountain. Does anyone think the V-Force reed would help any, or a reed spacer?
Could all this be a problem with Keihn carborators. maybe their quality control isn't very good.
Oh by the way, this bike has run rich since I got it brand new in 03. Power wise it spanks my buddies crf450 and my other buddies cr500, power isn't and issue.
Dennis in Arizona
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I know I get throwing this out there but have checked the float height? A three year old bike could still need alittle adjusting.
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Dennis, the big KX comes out of the box a disaster. Hughes is right, check the float height. But, the jetting is going to need some attention. What is your altitude? Check the jetting chart, it will give you a starting point. It wasn't close for me, but I am sea level and had a few modifications.
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Once again, the elusive jetting chart (http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php?page=11)
*** Starting point, not the be all to end all ***
And if you need a refresher on reading plugs (http://www.ingfatrygg.se/Spark_plug_diagnostics.html)
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okay,here is my problem bike.Its a '99 kx5 with a fmf fatty.The bike runs very rich in the lower rpm's,smokes like helldont idle but runs great in the higher revs.When i bought the k5(second hand),its had no power when i pulled the trottle.So i checked the main jet and it was a 182!I changed to a stock one(168) and its was much better.Now i have a 165 and its perfect in high rpm's.The pilot jet was a 55,now a 50 and he still wont idle.As soon a let go of the trottle,the engine dies.The needle is n82l.When a ride on the track or on public roads,the fuel consumption is the same :?.Maybe the previous owner "tuned"the cylinder and screwed it up?The main problem is:how can i make my bike leaner at low trottle?What happens when your reeds are worn?I run almost every week with some other supermotards but i'am the only 2 stroker and now i starting to understand why :-(
So,come on up with the theories and answers.
Regards,
Wim
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If you are certian about the crank seals, I will tell you that I'm at a 38 pilot. You might have some engine work (like a big bore, porting?). I understand your frustration, I was getting totally frustrated with my KX and getting it right. But, if I were you and Cam might correct me, but in your case I'd try to find an idle. Your pilot jet is your main source for idling.
But before you go on, as Cam said check your slide #. It should have a 6 or 7 stamped on the top. Either way, I found my idle by turning the air screw OUT until it idled, if it wouldn't idle, I'd keep leaning up my pilot until it idled. Once it idled, then I'd fine tune it between the slide and main jet.
Again, I'm down to a 38 Pilot and I get tan crisp plugs and couldn't be more happy with my jetting and it made 100% more power.
Read this article for a better understand of jetting : http://justkdx.dirtrider.net/carbtuning.html
Hopefully we can get you streight. It will be the best modification/tuning you can do to your bike.
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Zert,
Lets start at the begining. First, the N82L needle is 1 step RICHER than stock. Whoever owned your bike before has deliberately jetted it extra rich. I can't understand why (yet) unless the previous rider liked to chop the throttle in corners and didn't like the surges the KX will make when jetted nice. Solution is to not close the throttle in the corners. The jetting procedure I like to use is to ballpark the main jet (which you have done), get the idle right (as Gowen says) then work the needle, then finish by fine tuning the main. Sometimes you may have to go back and retune certain areas. Here is what I would suggest:
1. Verify your float level and slide number.
2. Ballpark your main jet (you have done this but expect to go larger)
3. Change the needle back to the stock N82M clip at 2nd to top position. Given that you are at sea level I doubt you will need one leaner than that, but it is a good first step.
4. Try to get a good idle with only the needle change and your 50 pilot. If the idle still is not right try the next leaner pilot (45?). Some mods make the engine more efficient requiring leaner jetting.
5. With the stock needle and a working idle do a full throttle plug run. For supermoto I am worried that the 165 may be too lean so need to verify it is ok.
Answer back with your results and we will continue. Hope this helps. Cam.
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thanks for the advice,i let you know how it went.(slide is number 7)
wim
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Zert, call Sudco for needles. They are $6 a piece over $25-$30 a piece. (323)728-5407 I say to call them because they will help you with the numbers and getting the correct needle. That way you could pick up a few. But if you are richer than stock, I'd just go down one Needle and go with that. But, if it is still too rich you'd only be out $6. Just an idea. Let us know how it does.
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@gowen,i'am from belgium so i guess sudco is a little to far for me but thanks for the tip.The two holes in the airbox,do they have a meaning?Should they be open,close?My previous one('90)didn't have these holes.
wim
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Lets more air into the filter, in wet conditions keep them shut.
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Makes quite a bit of difference to the top end with them both open.
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Tim,
That's a good call. For supermoto Zert should probably test all his jetting with both of them open for max airflow & power (I'm too chicken to open mine). A K&N airfilter might also improve the flow a bit more. I doubt if there is much dust to worry about. Zert, sudco is definately the place for parts but given your location, I think the Local Kaw dealer might be easier. Based on your elevation I think you will only end up buying the stock needle, possibly a second leaner one depending on how things work out. Slide #7 is stock so that's a good thing. Let use know how the testing goes. Cam.
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Zert, sorry. I thought that might be the case but had to give the idea out eitherway. I also keep mine shut. I figured if I perfected the jetting it with them close, there is no need to open.
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update
Today i put the clip on the needle on the top position, air screw 2.5 turns open and i went for a ride.The respons was very good but still doesn't idle.When i came home,i checked my plug and it was grey/white(too lean but i think that because my main is to smal).So,i ordered a stock needle but i have to wait because here in belgium you have to wait for everyting.I let you guys know how it went.
regards,wim
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So what happens when you bump up the idle stop?
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Hello everyone. This topic on jetting seems to get beat to death, but it is vital to great performance. So after a couple of years of seat of the pants "dyno testing" I thought I would share what currently works best for me.
Klotx R-50 mixed 40-1 with premium fuel, BR7ES plug, stock reeds with moose reed spacer.
FMF Gnarly pipe, stock bore and ports. I live at 760 feet above sea level.
I have the air screw at 1.5 turns out, my pilot jet is a #45 that I drilled to #46.5 (48 too rich) stock n82n needle on second clip and 168 main jet.
The bike starts cold on second or third kick every time. When warm or hot it starts on first kick almost always. It idles smooth and accelerates cleanly at low speeds. The throttle can be snapped open at any time and it will try to tear your arms off.
This is, and has been, a work in progess, I have put, as of this week, two hundred and forty gallons of fuel through this bike since it was new two years ago. I feel as though, I have it right, and am very happy with the performance. Now if my riding would improve that would be better.
KX 500 is the best. Johnniespeed
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That's excellent to hear.. It is a topic that has been beaten to death.. But, I'd say about 90% of the KX500's out there are running at about 60-70% due to the jetting. Most people I've talked to around here that had one at some point in life have all said that they foul plugs and are hard to start and just smoke too much... Which is all due to jetting..
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I wanted to reinforce an old point: An important starting point for jetting is having your float level set correctly. Having said that and jetted many bikes I still had forgotten how much difference a small adjustment can make. My bike runs great but I was losing too much fuel out the carb overflows over rough ground. Float was set (as always) at exactly parallel. Strap a beer can on the overflows and you might be supprised at how much fuel is in there at the end of a rough ride. I once lost 1/4 tank with the bike leaned against a tree while I was eating my lunch (and not paying attention).
My Issue: Try to stretch out my mileage by preventing as much overflow as possible. For a trial I deliberately lowered the float level 3mm (from exact level) which is about 1mm below the min spec. Todays ride gave me almost no lost fuel and a crisper bottom end response. I was pleased at the crisper bottom end since I had noticed a gradual richening over time. I had suspected needle jet wear (ovaling) but couldn't detect any. Cam.
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Just finished a major nuts&bolts rebuild of the 500 hundred from the ground up.its an 89 model and every seal,bearing,gasket and just about every part that needs replacing due to ware and tare has been,only performance mods ive made are a gnarly pipe and hitech dual stage reeds,the trouble is know when i come to start it back up. Checked all all the jets and striped and cleaned the carb but found a 190!! main 62 pilot and a 1 step richer needle!!, what i cant get my head around is that the plug was a nice light tan colour and it started 1st/2nd kick and hardly smoked,it was on 60-1 putoline mx7.After reading the jetting charts i settled on a 170 /60 combination but left the original needle in,but now its a pig to start,wont tick over,smokes like hell even on the same ratio and oil and when it warms up it dies as if its either still got the choke stuck on,wich it hasnt or its running out of fuel,only thing i havent checked is the float height but how do you do it,do you need a tube and an adapter for the float bowl or is there another way? thanks for any help and advice,the forums been a big help over the last 2 years its taken to finish this bike,now all i wanna do is ride the thing!!
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Joe,
Welcome to the site! Next post mention your elevation, average temp and humidity, bike history and sparkplug type. Your original jetting was extremely rich. It is possible that the bike was resetted at one time to compensate for air leaking in the crank seals (I'm assuming that you replaced those). I am aslo assuming that the 89 carb is the same as my 92 PKW39. I think in the 87-88 years the carb float was different. The float can be set "eyeball" to level or you can blow into the fuel inlet and see what level the air stops (see previous posts for exact method). Level is the setting but I find it is better to run the level 1-2 mm lower (measured at center point of float). Since the bike is older I would check/replace the float valve. Any leakage will make it hard to jet. The richer needle and 60 pilot may give you some grief. The stock needle is on the verge of being too rich hence I run mine in the lowest position (clip highest). Have no fear. We will be able to get this thing running perfectly. Hope this helps. Cam.
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Bit more info but i think im getting close.Running at sea level at 5 to 15 c,b8evx (platinum plug),new seals in everything,carb is a PKW39,seems unchanged to later models and i think even though its an 89 frame its a 90 plus engine and even newer suspension(2000 on i think).Made a few changes to 55 pilot 170 main and found the float height was at 30+mm,no were near to 15mm to 17mm it shows in the clymer manual,no wonder it felt like it was running out of fuel,reset that and started in 2 kicks,wont tick over for long without reving it but its d**n close,close enough to bed every thing in for know,then ill stick it on the local dyno and get a fuel/air ratio print out and find out what it needs from that, Thanks for help KXcam22 and every one else on here.
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Hey Joe... made my heart skip a beat when I seen the pics of your bike. Very nice looking.
Glad to hear the jetting is closer for you. You say that it is revving. Might want to check the reed boot for leaks/cracks and also the stator side crank bearing seal. Sometimes masks lean (you say 170 main and 60 pilot).
Sly
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Thanks Sly,all the seals are new,i ment it wouldn't tick over,i had to keep reving it to keep it runing,but thanks for the advice,glad you like the pics ive hundreds more detailing the whole strip/rebuild if any ones interested ill stick them in the gallery,even have the details on making your own lighing coil and charging system if thats of any use to any one.
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Copy...
Definately throw some pics in your gallery that you think we might like :wink:
As far as Tech Tips/Advice... anything in writing/pictures is always beneficial to the tinkering KX owner :-)
You ride that Motard on the street??
Sly
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Too pritty for the dirt Sly,and besides it annoys the hellout of sportsbike riders thinking they know how to corner when this thing comes up the inside of them sideways,then leaves them behind on the back wheel,the look on there faces when you have to stop at some point or they finally catch up is priceless!!!
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Dude that is one nasty looking bike, sick as f**k. :-D the ole 500's can never be to pretty for the dirt.
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Wow, just when I thought it was me, I see this site, and realized I am not the only one with surging problems.
I just purchased an 02 KX500, that had only 25 hrs on it previously. I was experiencing surging on the deceleration, and so I put in larger jets 175 main / 62 pilot. It is better than before, but is still there. It is most prominent when I chop the throttle, and inversely less prominent when I ease off the throttle.
I have received many suggestions about air leaks, or such, but the bike hasn't been used much, and looks fine, nevertheless, at this point, I am not certain.
I am in Rochester NY, and the temperature has been mid 30's.
Thanks all
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Hey there raredesign, most likely air leak at carb boot/reed cage.
Check:
Gasket between reed block to cylinder/reed block to air boot. (if you have a VForce check the modified i.e. hand cut/shaved, surface for incorrect fit to air boot)
Carb boot for cracks/clamp tightness.
Stator side crank seal.
..... you can use an ether/WD40 type aerosol spray and mist near those items above and see if the bikes idle/low RPM is effected (surge/stall)..... can be explosive on the stator area, so use at own risk :roll:
This can definately be old/stock/incorrect reeds. You can flip the ones over that you have and see if that helps also. That will put the reed petals that may be slightly flexed outward and weak at high RPM's from age/use more tightly against the cage.
Sly
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Thanks for the suggestions!
Maybe I can post some pics of the carb boot if that is what you call it...going from the air box to the carb is what concerns me.
If you look at the carb, where the boot fits on and clamps...right at the edge of the boot the carb has a lip, or ring on that lip. the left side (carb side) has the boot pulled right up onto that lip ring (unless there is a better name), while the right side goes just before the lip ring. I tried squeezing the air box, and negotiating with it as much as i could, but it just doesn't seem to want to fit right.
The other thing that I am wondering, is that the guy I bought it from, had placed a torque spacer (if that is what it is called) for the reeds. He also used different reeds I think, maybe moose, but not certain.
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I went out yesterday and the strangest thing happend; gas started pouring out of the overflow tubes! I had gone from full tank to half tank in 5 minutes! My buddy and I opened up the carb on the trail, and the float had been set wrong! When all the way up, it was not pushing the stopper all the way (sorry I don't know the technical name for it), so the gas just poured out. We bent it a bit more, start up the bike, and the bike runs like a champ. I was too excited to pay attention to the surging though...not sure. I am just glad that I can ride for more than 10 minutes ;-)
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Rare,
Welcome to the jetting place. Take the time to set your float, there are some easy procedures in this thread. The float level affects jetting so it is important to set it right before you take the time to jet. I run mine a touch low so I don't lose as much gas from the overflows over rough ground. As for the surging, mine is likely the worst offender but I rarely notice it. The only KX500's that don't surge are the ones jetted too rich. We always joke that as soon as you bike starts to surge you know that your jetting is getting close, but it is very true. It is easy to adapt your riding style so that you don't chop the throttle as much then it is not an issue. Hope this helps. Cam.
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could somebody give me a good start point to jet for 6000'-8500' ii tried the jetting chart and seems to rich. what is happening is, the bike seems to run ok as long as you are on the gas but if you idle down a tight trail for a couple blocks to a mile the bike will die unless you keep reving it. then when you come to a rock or stump or something and try to blip over it the bike bogs. i have tried a smaller pilot but dosn't seem to have the botom power when it is cleaned out. the bike is a 97 kx 500. with a platnum pipe boysen reeds and milled head.
current jetting is i think.
air 2.5 turns
pilot 55 or 52?
needle stock 82m? can't remember the number but its stock. top clip pos
main is a 165 or 158??
it has been a couple months since i been in the carb, i will go check for sure tomarrow.
srry i daon't have all my info for sure.
thanks
cory
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could somebody give me a good start point to jet for 6000'-8500' ii tried the jetting chart and seems to rich. what is happening is, the bike seems to run ok as long as you are on the gas but if you idle down a tight trail for a couple blocks to a mile the bike will die unless you keep reving it. then when you come to a rock or stump or something and try to blip over it the bike bogs. i have tried a smaller pilot but dosn't seem to have the botom power when it is cleaned out. the bike is a 97 kx 500. with a platnum pipe boysen reeds and milled head.
current jetting is i think.
air 2.5 turns
pilot 55 or 52?
needle stock 82m? can't remember the number but its stock. top clip pos
main is a 165 or 158??
it has been a couple months since i been in the carb, i will go check for sure tomarrow.
srry i daon't have all my info for sure.
thanks
cory
Wow, and that is too rich?...I am running 62 / 175
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like i said im lost. i read on here bout guys at sea level -4000' with jetting like 38 pilot and 155 mains, i thought the higher in elivation you go the leaner you should be thats why i am stumped.
thanks :?
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KIX500,
At altitude you will always need leaner jetting, simply less O2 per volume of air. I think you might be getting confused with Gowens bike which is heavily modified and we ended up going quite a bit leaner to make it run well (and run well it does.....). At your altitude you will likely need to start with a 50 pilot to get it to idle. I run 58/165 at 3000-6000 and it is too rich at 6000'. The needle will be the tough one since the stock N82M is barely ok dropped all the way down. I would suggest getting the pilot and main about right before messing with the needle. Here is what I would suggest:
1. Dial the main. Do some plug runs with new cheap plugs. I would suggest starting at 160 and going smaller to 155. A slight uphill works the best then stop it with the kill button. If you single track ride like me I tend to run the main a touch lean since I don't spend much time wide open.
2. Set the pilot so you can get a nice idle and the bike pulls clean off the bottom. I would suggest starting at a 52 or 50. This is mostly adjusted by riding feel and engine sound.
Make sure you only change one thing at a time. When it is time to adjust your needle post back and I can give you some more guidance. You can use the Kawasaki needles or get them cheaper from Sudco. Hope this helps. Cam.
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I just purchased my 90 KX500 a few weeks ago from the original owner. I have not riden a dirt bike in 20+ years. Since it sat in his garage for the last 4 years I decided to rebuild it. I took it out for the first time yesterday even though it was raining and very muddy. I am in Seattle and the temp was 50 degrees. I went on a 25 mile ride in the woods that was very confined and only got out of 1st gear a couple of times. The bike will not idle very long and had to help it by holding the throttle open in the really tight stuff. When I would get the chance to give it full throttle, it would take a few seconds to clear out, sometimes 1/2 way throught 2nd gear. I then found a 1/2 mile dirt road and ran it through the gears while racing my friends KXF250, I could barely pull him and my KX500 never pulled the front tire off the ground. My bike sounded clean, not loaded up. It starts up within 3 kicks cold or warmed up. The plug is black but I had to idle back to camp. It is very possible that the tire was spinning, it was very wet out. It was still great fun but I belive it has jetting issues. I pulled the carb off today and this is what I found.
Pilot-48
Main-160
N82M needle, second groove from the top
#6 slide
For those of you riding at sea level with cool temps what do you suggest. I would go by the jetting chart but after reading this post it appears to be on the rich side.
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Marc,
Congrats on the new bike. Before starting on the jetting I suggest you should confirm that the compression is within spec. Low compression will make a bike act like it is running rich, and it will be much slower. I am assuming that you have set the float level correctly when you rebuilt the carb. Post back when you have confirmed the compression. Cam.
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Cam,
The compression is on the high end of the range, I have not checked the float level yet, I will do that today and get back to you.
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Just finished checking the float level, it is at 17mm. The fuel mixture screw was out 2.5 turns but I have not tried adjusting it. When I start it up cold, I can turn the choke off right away and it will idle on it's own. When it warms up it will idle very low and then die. Sounds rich to me, is the mixture screw on air or a fuel screw? The 160 main sounds lean for sea level, cool weather and the dense air we have in the Seattle area. I did not experience the big hit in power that the rest of you talk about when it comes on the power band. The first ride was just making sure the bike performed well after the engine and suspension rebuild and to give myself some seat time. Now it's time to find somemore power.
Thanks,
Marc
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Marc,
Sounds like you know what you are doing. I run a 165 at 2500' (1992 K5) so your 160 does sound lean. My favorite procedure is to get your main about right, then find a pilot that will give you a nice idle. After that you play with the needle but most of the adjustments are based on "feel" and "sound" more than anything. Then you check the main again to see if its still ok. I would suggest picking your main from the chart as a starting point then doing a couple of plug runs to verify it. Might find your lost power. Your needle sounds about right. Mixture screw is air so more air (screw ccw out) leans the jetting. Remember to only change one thing at a time. Also check to make sure your bike has an 8 heat range plug. A colder plug will give you incorrect readings. I have great luck using a BPR8ES. The projected nose plug runs clean and they are cheap and last. The BR8EIX is the best plug but has a much higher cost. If you need to find smaller pilots, KTM's & older CR500s use 38 and smaller. Good Luck. Cam.
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Hi guys!
I need some help with my jetneedles to convert them to new standard letters.
1)N89B :?
2)R1366 :?
What?s difference(leaner/richer) to stock needle N82M?
Thx in advance :wink:
Doordie
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jetting that works best with my bike. Stock needle second clip, 48 pilot and 165 main , pro circuit 296 sil. fmf pipe,reed spacer, thick head gasket,3800 feet . I could even get away with a 162 main . I like it a little rich. The 296 really chages what jet the bike wants.
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RE: KX500 2002
I was getting close to good jetting but, I just repacked my stock exhaust and now it is WAY off.
I am in Rochester NY, elevation: 558 ft.
It kind of scared me, cause I noticed that it is making a bunch of noise. I don't mean the typical surge/backfire, but i mean something more from the head. It mainly happens when it too high of a gear and sounds like a backfire, but then again, when coming off a high rev, the surge/backfire is IMMENSE! I had the air at 2 turns out, so I put it to 1.5 and that really helped. I guess the new packing caused for major airflow.
I have been running the Spectro 32:1 mix at a 50:1 ratio. what do you guys think of that? There has been some comment that as long as you get good protection, you want to run a thinner ratio, because oil burns hotter than gas. If I use more oil, will that make it run hotter and give more surge or will it settle my jetting?
I just hear all these vids on youtube, and the kx500 sounds great. Then I start mine, and if I am not on the gas full throttle, it sounds like boiling water...completely unstable. Once I jump on the gas, the thing is a smooth rocket searching for peak.
Thanks guys. I don't know how busy you guys are, but if you could leave a response, call or email that is cool. If you are willing, I will PM my info. Thanks
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Rare,
It sound like you are getting close. Post some specific questions and I will answer. As for the oil thing, having more oil in your mix reduces the amount of fuel per unit of air, and so leans out your jetting slightly. Generally it is not enough that you will feel riding but only see with plug color. Cam.
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I run 44:1 Super Tecniplate. I suggest any 2-stroke oil that is synthetic. Castor oils smell good, but foul too many plugs. I think the rule is the more revs you run them the less oil you need. 32:1 is good for new riders or tight trails, but i think between 40 and 50:1 is typical for a seasoned k5 rider. I absolutely stick with my mixture and adjust my carb for temps and conditions.
My k5 runs wierd on the low end, when it is running rich. It has alot of popping in the exhaust, especially in the bottom of 1st and 2nd. I leaned it out a half turn and it seemed to come off the bottom better. If your are turned out to far on the adjustment try dropping the clip adjustment. Also at idle, my k5 has an obvious different sound than what's coming from the exhaust. Its sorta like the rumble of a steamroller, before you see it. I think that is just the coffee can sized piston doing its thing in there.
Sometimes, when you swap pipes out, they recommend jets or silencers to go with it.
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Ok, here are some questions:
INFO:
I am in Rochester NY, elevation: 558 ft.
I mix at 50:1 with jetting set at 175 main/ 62 pilot
I believe the stock was 168/58.
I have not messed with the needle clip position.
The reason I jet it this way was because I ice ride, but as it started to get warmer, i noticed it ran better than before. I was still getting some surging though.
After changing the baffle packing, I got MUCH MORE surging, and had to cut the air screw 1/2 turn just to make it more manageable.
QUESTION: What do I do? LOL...no seriously, what should be main and pilot be for this elevation and mix? Should I jump to a serious 200 main or something? or just adjust the needle clip?
Thanks
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Ok, so i raced the clip (lower clip position) 5 rings: it was in the middle, moved to 2nd from bottom.
And....what was that supposed to do? lol
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Scroll down and give the this a look-see.
http://www.teamgreennews.ca/pdf/RS03-101e.pdf
Hope this helps
Tuck \o/
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So the short version of all of this is the new 04 KX 500 jetting is the best place to start with and if you have not already done so pick up the N82M needle.
My jetting;
180 main
62 pilot
R1369N in middle clip setting
Whereas I should start with
168 main
58 pilot
N82M needle
I know there is more to jetting then simply installing these and calling it a day but that should put me a lot closer right?
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BigGreen -Yep, Fixed mine. Start there, with the mixture screw out 1 1/2. Keep in mind its stock settings. You may need fatter jets for bikes that are worn, or race fuels. If you're close to stock, even with a pipe and silencer, it should still be very close. Warm it up, ride it, check plug color. Electrode should be brown.
Raredesign - Go off of jetting chart for elevation and temperatures. I think the pilot controls idle and bottom, needle affects how it comes off the bottom to mid-range, and the main controls how it runs when you hammer it. So checking the plug after running under these conditions might give a clue to which is fat or lean.
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I hope the links help. I realize there is lots of reading and most of it reads like Greek to someone taking this on for the first time, however if you take some time it will start to make sense and you'll
have your bike runnin' like a scalded dawg :-D
Hang in there guys,
Tuck \o/
http://www.duncanracing.com/techfaq/Tech_keihin-carburetion-jetting.phtml
http://www.motorcyclecarbs.com/carbs101.pdf
http://justkdx.dirtrider.net/jetneedles.html
http://www.sudco.com/vol33/135-136.pdf
http://www.keihin-us.com/am/
http://www.cyclewerksracing.com/Carb%20Tuuning.htm
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Hey guys, I took my carb out for the first time to check it's jetting.
Elevation 4500ft., riding in 60-80 temps
165 main
58 pilot
#7 slide
N82r needle with clip in second from top position.
105 starter(?) jet
I rode another guys KX5 and it seemed slightly more crisp. My question is, the stock needle seems to be the m needle, right?
What is the difference with needle?
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there is a good thread called "jetting again and again" that may help http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,828.0.html
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This might help go to http://www.sudco.com/
Then click on the smaller catalog version (loads faster)
For v.33 Sudco Catalog please click here.
This is available divided in to small sections for dial up users. http://www.sudco.com/onlinecat33.html
Then click on keihin jet needles Jet Needles, PE, PJ, PWK, PWM 135-136
This will give you a headache if spend too much time going through the charts, but gives you a good Idea of how jet needles are measured. I will try to find a direct cross reference from Kawasaki OEM To Sudco..
Please stand by... =) http://justkdx.dirtrider.net/jetneedles.html
Tuck\o/
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Martin,
The N82R is a Kawasaki option needle two steps leaner than the stock N82M. I have seen this listed in Pro-Circuit jetting specs but I have never talked to anyone who has tried it. I always wanted to try one but never did. At 4500' it might be better than the stock needle(4th clip - all the way down). The difference in crispness you are feeling is likely the pilot jet. Your 58 may be a touch too rich. At my 2500' I ended up running a 55. The only time the 55 felt a bit lean was riding in cold air and snow. Pipe and reed differences can also make a huge "feel" difference. For instance a Gnarly will make a bike feel much crisper because of the great off idle response. Hope this helps. Cam.
Ps
Danger can you move this thread into the jetting section. Thanks.
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Where is the jetting forum? There is not one listed on the home page index.
I'd like to discuss this more if a mod can move this thread.
Thanks,
Rich.
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http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,828.0.html
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I'm in agreement with Cam, if you can, get a 55 & 52 pilot.
Tuck\o/
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OK, thanks fellas. I will do. I'll try a 55 first and run it. I'm curious why I have the "R" needle. It's two steps leaner than the stock "M" needle... It's at the second from the top in the clip position. So I have a much leaner 1/8 to 2/3 throttle range...
I take it that the 165 main compensates for the lean needle setting...
I am getting lots of splooge coming out of the head pipe flange. Oil mix, or jetting I wonder. 32:1 Maxima Castor oil.
BTW, what series jets are the pilots?
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The jets are the same as current KTM 300 jets. Most dealers have a multi-box kit of misc jets for the Kehin. Some of the splooge might be the 32:1. You can make your own decision but I am not a fan of rich premixes. I ran 60:1 in mine. The needle acts more to the 1/4 to 3/4 range with the pilot jet overlapping the 1/4 and the main overrlapping the 3/4. Before you go too far the first thing to verify is that the float is set correctly. Then from there change only one thing at a time. The 55 is a good start. The M needle is adequate and can be made to run nicely but it is not perfect. I think a different needle taper is required. JD jetting made them for awhile but they are no longer available. YOu can be our ginea pig and we will see how well we can get your bike to run with the R. I'll bet at your altitude it will run great. Cam.
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The jets are the same as current KTM 300 jets. Most dealers have a multi-box kit of misc jets for the Kehin. Some of the splooge might be the 32:1. You can make your own decision but I am not a fan of rich premixes. I ran 60:1 in mine. The needle acts more to the 1/4 to 3/4 range with the pilot jet overlapping the 1/4 and the main overrlapping the 3/4. Before you go too far the first thing to verify is that the float is set correctly. Then from there change only one thing at a time. The 55 is a good start. The M needle is adequate and can be made to run nicely but it is not perfect. I think a different needle taper is required. JD jetting made them for awhile but they are no longer available. YOu can be our ginea pig and we will see how well we can get your bike to run with the R. I'll bet at your altitude it will run great. Cam.
OK, I'll try first the 55 pilot and set the float level. I will search for a thread on the float level, unless you have a thread in mind to check it.
I am also thinking of switching to 40:1 and still use Maxima Castor. Smells good, smells like victory! I'd bet, some of the lazyness, off the bottom might go away.
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Float Level Adjustment :
http://justkdx.dirtrider.net/floatlevel.html
Keihin Pilot N424-21 (style)
Note: to order a #55 would look like this: N424-21055
(series # & Jet size)
Fits PWK (Kawasaki Motocross), FCR-MX (aftermarket),
PJ,PWM (Honda Moto-X Atv), PE 20,22,26-30(Honda Moto-X, Atv)
I like the Maxima 927 myself, I ran that until I got a deal on the Blue Marble stuff.
I guy at work sold his Bass Boat and gave me Three gallons. So far so good...
(I'm not gonna open a can of worms on oil)
If you don't like the 40:1 you can always switch back. I think you'll be fine.
I had run 60:1 for a while with the 927 and had no problems. But I don't spend much time over 1/2 throttle.
Tuck\o/
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Check back in this thread for an easy way to set your float level. Cam.
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OK, N424-21 is the pilot series. What is the mainjet series #?
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I was just recently educated on the ratio changing. I run 44:1 and have for at least 8 years, but it blew my mind to learn this: If you "lean" the ratio out like 32:1 changing to 40:1, you are actually fattening the air /fuel mixture. Lean and rich are really air to fuel terms, oil ratio is oil ratio. Less oil in the mixture= more fuel in the mixture. Am I making sense?
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Hillclimb#42
I had heard that from a couple of guys, but didnt know them well enough to believe them. I know that you have been up the hill a few times ( or is that over the hill ? LOL) and I trust your word, based on your experience.
John
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That is true. On some lean ratio oil bottles like amsoil it even says the words "leaner jetting may be required". It makes sense: the carb meters a given amount of fluid per air with the fluid being made up of fuel & oil. The ratio of fluid to air is constant (stochiometric ratio of 1:14 approx). The oil is part of the fluid but doesn't count as part of the mixture (the part that makes power) so taking away oil means that the missing part of the "fluid" is made back up by fuel. Then you have more gas in the mixture than before, making the mixture richer. Hope this makes sense. Cam.
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KXcam22
The more I learn, I realize how little I know.
John
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OK, venturing into the unknown after studying this whole thread and all the articles in it over and over again, and yes, I understand changing too many things at once may not be good, but I'm going to START with almost everything changed.
My bike runs good down low, but has NO top-end power and I get killed by 250s on the pipe all the time...
I had stock jetting:
168
60
82M in middle position (3rd from short end)
7 slide
1.5 turns out
I think stock reeds, but they look like they are in great shape with minor carbon buildup here or there. It seems like the paint has chipped off the frame a bunch. :| This is the first time I've looked at them, or anything for that matter.
I am at approximately 3000' elevation with 80*+ temperatures as the norm for now, and 110*+ in the summer.
After studying the chart Paul put up, I wanted either a 162 and a 58 or a 160/55 but my local shop didn't have anything bigger than a 50 so i put that in with the 160. I sometimes ride up to Fry Mesa at around 5,000' where the temperatures drop a little and there's a good spot to get wet for a little while before the ride home. :-D
I do have a dented Gnarly pipe, and previous rides up to Fry Mesa have overheated bad. The bike has never idled when warm. It will idle for a minute or two when I first fire it up and it's cold, though. I will START my jetting adventure with the following and tune from there:
160 main (hopefully gain pipe :oops:)
50 pilot
82M in middle position
7 slide
2 turns out
Keeping in mind that I ride on the pipe, what do you guys think of starting here? Any and all suggestions are welcome! :mrgreen:
Can anyone explain how to do a plug chop? I don't follow that article well... I don't know what it means by, "chop the throttle." Reading the plug seems difficult also, but I'm gonna give it a shot.
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Good,
With the stock jetting your bike must have been very rich at altiude. I ran 55/165 at 3000-6000 and it was too rich on top at 6000' but nice at 3000'. The needle will be the tough one since the stock N82M is barely ok dropped all the way down (clip in the highest slot). Your temps are higher than mine so the 50, although lean, may work ok. Make sure you watch for "lean idle runaway". That is where temp/altitude/humidity changes to get your bike more air and the idle begins to run away by itself as the mixture gets too lean. With the 55 I experienced that when ridiing in snow. I would suggest eventually trying a leaner needle like the N82R. It is a kawaski option number, although sudco might have a cross for for it. Get the main and pilot right first. KTM dealers are good sources for jets since the 300 uses the same carb. Also the CR500. A Plug chop is a technique to get a clean reading of jetting on a new plug. Essentially you ride up a mild hill (for engine load) at the throttle setting you want to check, (generally 1/4 1/2 3/4 WFO - putting tape around the grip with arrows helps) use the killbutton to stop the engine, and immediately remove the plug. Put a crap plug in and ride to the bottom. Put in another new plug and do it again etc. Use cheap BR8ES plugs since they give the same reading as expensive ones. Your KX will be a different machine after this, smooth and wonderful. If you are overheating try buidling a rad overflow bottle. easy and effective. Hope this helps. Cam.
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The main jet in the Keihin FCR's on the kx450f is also the same main as the PWK. The stock kx450f comes with a 175. Also for those hard to reach places....Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/175-Hex-Main-Jet-Genuine-Keihin-Brand-for-FCR-and-More_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116QQhashZitem110248411478QQitemZ110248411478QQptZSnowmobileQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/175-Hex-Main-Jet-Genuine-Keihin-Brand-for-FCR-and-More_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116QQhashZitem110248411478QQitemZ110248411478QQptZSnowmobileQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
JFAB
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Thanx guys, so you think I should start with the needle in the highest, or top slot? If I can get away from work while there's still light, I'm going to put the carb back on today and might chop a few plugs.
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Please if you guys dont mind giving a few thoughts..
Proposed jetting for an upcoming ride at Goler in socal in two weeks...
Just O/H'd topend, window piston, V2 reeds, stock pipe.
168/55, N82R needle, 2nd position from top. Will I be OK down there? Im used to riding at 4500-5000 ft.
40:1 Maxima semi-synth oil.
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Mine ran real good with that tune @ 700 ft 50 deg. I forget the psi and humidity but they were about normal for mid USA. Stewart suggested that I go with a 175/52 center clip...It ran better there...Piston window, Fatty pipe, PC 304 silancer, V Force 2 reeds, 37cc head, B9EV plug.
JFAB
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Mine ran real good with that tune @ 700 ft 50 deg. I forget the psi and humidity but they were about normal for mid USA. Stewart suggested that I go with a 175/52 center clip...It ran better there...Piston window, Fatty pipe, PC 304 silancer, V Force 2 reeds, 37cc head, B9EV plug.
JFAB
I assume a N82M needle?
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oooops....Yes..N82M
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Good,
When you start doing plug chops make sure that you get the main figured out first. Normally what I do is set the main, then set all the others then go back and verify that the main is still good. Also, make sure that you set your float level before you start. Cam.
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Copy that. I got everything installed, then took it all apart again to put the needle in the 1st clip (top) from the short end. I put everything back together and tonight I'm gonna fire it up and see where we're at. I think the 160 will be a good starting point for the main, and other than a possible lean idle (50 pilot might be a little lean), everything else should let me dial in the main without hinderance.
I'm going to try the 160 first, but if it's lean, I have a 162 also. From there, we'll see. I'm hoping that 50 is spot-on.
Thank you for all your help, I'm supposed to go riding at hotwell dunes tomorrow. Might get some vid. :-D
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The power was unaffected either way (still sub-250 power) by the changes :cry: but it runs much more poorly. Still no dial-a-wheelie in really any gear other than first...
The bike seems to be running lean now. When it's hot and under load at lower RPMs it makes all kinds of nasty rattling noises... detonation I suppose. It seems to go away as the RPMs climb.
The plug seemed dark with the 168, but really lean with the 160... I need to go back to the 168 on the main. I was able to get it to idle with the 50, and it sounds good, but when riding, letting off the throttle the idle surges. Bummer. :|
I'm thinking of putting the needle back in the middle position and going back to the 168 main, but keeping the 50 pilot. I'll try that tomorrow. It's unfortunate, but I guess I was close originally. I was just hoping to gain some pipe...
The plug read lean. I rode for approximately 1/2 a mile pinned up a gradual incline and the plug looked like new with white ash on the strap. Thinking that was not enough time, I then rode pinned back and forth for several miles and read it and the strap had minimal discoloration. The porcelain middle was still white though, with maybe a minimal beige tint. Maybe someone else can help me out here. I'm really not sure on the plug reading, but the plug still looked new with minimal tarnish...
I was really hoping it'd come alive, but instead I'm bummed out. :cry:
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Maybe I missed it, but what is your elevation?
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I just had a dial a jet installed and rode from 200 ft up to about 6000 and had no issues. I was wondering if anyone else has had one of these installed on their carb?
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I'm at approximately 3000' elevation and ride from 2500-5000' depending on where I go.
My old (normal riding) plug is almost black or like really dark chocolate brown, so I would think something's rich...
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Good,
I think you will find that at your altitude the 168 will be rich. I would suggest changing one thing at a time and starting with a 165 main and your needle clip up one position from center. FYI the clip pos are numbered 1 to 5, top to bottom so stock is #3 and you should start out at #2. Do some plug chops and get a general idea of how it feels. I have used those at 3000' and know they work well. How is the starting and idle with the 50p? Cam.
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Starts great, 2nd or third kick cold and idles great. She definitely has more compression than the '02 CR250 I rode all day Saturday. But, when I'm riding (bike's hot and just after being under load) and pull in the clutch though it surges just for a quick second, then back to normal idle, then surges, then normal, etc. It would be like if I was barely blipping the throttle to keep it going. It does this for a few minutes before resuming a normal idle, but, it will idle fine. Wierd, but fine.
The rattleing noises concern me and I'm scared of a lean condition, but I'll change the needle position to see if that helps. Maybe I'll get some video.
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Have you checked for an air leak (leak down test)? Sounds as the intermittent jetting issues could be just that.
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I wouldn't have a clue as to how to perform that.
Here's a couple vids. I don't know if you can see the smoke. This is with week-old Maxima Super M at 32:1 that I had mixed up for the weedeater. Some of the dust is from the vibration of the rear tire in the dirt. I'm either binging the throttle or completely off it. You can hear the idle surges that I'm talking about. Under full throttle, it actually still looks rich to me. Let me know what you think. :mrgreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-CV8lXctqU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly4gsJg1wy0
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Good,
It would be helpful to label what your present jetting is each post. What main and pilot are you running right now? Cam.
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Gonna test more today :-D but it's raining so might not be accurate due to humidity.
Currently in the bike,
50 pilot
160 main
stock needle in the second slot from the short, or fat, end
Going to mix Maxima Super M (because I have some left, but normally use Amsoil) at 40:1 in 91 octane.
Upon messing with the air screw and the idle screw, I can get the idle surges to go away, but then it doesn't want to idle when it finally calms down. I ran out of fuel after that last vid. Getting more today.
I'm also gonna adjust my float like Cam did due to losing fuel at a slight lean.
After riding an '02 CR250 all last Saturday, I'll say my low end torque and responsiveness is WAY more on the K5, but the CR pipe kills my bike. Down low though and responsiveness, my K5 owns. But, on the pipe, that stock 250 runs like a scalded cat. That's what I'm looking for, but times 10!!! :evil: (and why I bought the mighty K5 in the first place.)
Thanks for all your help. I think eventually I need to take apart my KIPS valve... :|
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Good,
It is a goodpractise when jetting to keep all outside variables constant. The humidity I never worry about too much but plug heat range, fuel/oil brand and ratio and float level should be kept the same. Can you get higher octane gas in your area without resorting to race gas? 92 or 94 would be better. 91 might be ok I have just never run it since I get 94 at the pump. I am concerned that the 160 might be lean. I would suggest doing a few plug chops to make sure it is ok before riding lots. Your KX should eat an 02 CR250 in every power range. I rode one of those back to back with my K5 as the owner was boasting about how much low end power it made. Not much by K5 standards. What pipe do you have on your K5? Cam.
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Good, your original plan of 165, 55 was pretty solid, like KxCam is saying. Dealerships are bad about changing a gameplan due to out of stock parts. You probably should order that 165 main and 55, if they don't stock them. Too lean makes for a short engine life-span, and you are leaving power on the table. A plug chop is referring to holding the throttle at a position for a given period of time and then killing the motor. You check the plug color to see how the plug is colored. You are supposed to use a new plug each time and start with the main jet check. Start with stock or slightly richer than recommended by the jetting chart. (The jetting chart was right on the money for mine.) It was just a needle adjustment and mixture tweek to add a PC pipe and V-Force reeds. FMF gives a jetting recommendation for specefic models and years for which pipe, on their website. Its hard to jet a bike with worn reeds, by the way. They should have a good seal around the edges, where no light is leaking through, if you hold them up and try to look through.
Once you have your jets right, the needle is a big time adjustment for the mid thru top. It helps make your acceleration steady, when set right. Mixture screw is the tweek for condition and controls from idle to mids. Start with stock setting there too, and tweek for good throttle response. On my bike the idle adjustment seemed to cause alot of the over rev. Once I got the jetting and mixture right, the idle screw barely engages the slide. It idles fine, when cold, in neutral. Sometimes when warm, in gear, it wants to die because of the added drag, but still idles in neutral, warm or not. I run a 168 main and a 58 pilot, at a lower elevation, but I'm guessin' yours is way past compensating for the altitude. Starting a little rich( plug is dark) is perfect, no danger. Go one step leaner check again, till its brown/tan. Starting off on the lean side(green/white) is the risky way, expensive way.
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Good, your original plan of 165, 55 was pretty solid, like KxCam is saying. Dealerships are bad about changing a gameplan due to out of stock parts. You probably should order that 165 main and 55, if they don't stock them. Too lean makes for a short engine life-span, and you are leaving power on the table. A plug chop is referring to holding the throttle at a position for a given period of time and then killing the motor. You check the plug color to see how the plug is colored. You are supposed to use a new plug each time and start with the main jet check. Start with stock or slightly richer than recommended by the jetting chart. (The jetting chart was right on the money for mine.) It was just a needle adjustment and mixture tweek to add a PC pipe and V-Force reeds. FMF gives a jetting recommendation for specefic models and years for which pipe, on their website. Its hard to jet a bike with worn reeds, by the way. They should have a good seal around the edges, where no light is leaking through, if you hold them up and try to look through.
Once you have your jets right, the needle is a big time adjustment for the mid thru top. It helps make your acceleration steady, when set right. Mixture screw is the tweek for condition and controls from idle to mids. Start with stock setting there too, and tweek for good throttle response. On my bike the idle adjustment seemed to cause alot of the over rev. Once I got the jetting and mixture right, the idle screw barely engages the slide. It idles fine, when cold, in neutral. Sometimes when warm, in gear, it wants to die because of the added drag, but still idles in neutral, warm or not. I run a 168 main and a 58 pilot, at a lower elevation, but I'm guessin' yours is way past compensating for the altitude. Starting a little rich( plug is dark) is perfect, no danger. Go one step leaner check again, till its brown/tan. Starting off on the lean side(green/white) is the risky way, expensive way.
Can I ask what your final needle set up is?
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Mine is as Pro Circuit recommends, 1 step leaner than stock, for the needle setting. I had to fatten my mixture when i added the V-force, and may still be a little lean through the mid, but have not had much seat time on the 500 to tell. I liked the jetting chart, when I was stock, the Pipe manufacturer's suggestion once I got the PcII, and the V-force cleaned up the rest. Plug looked good on the last ride, but it was not a normal summer day. I am confident I am very close.
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Are you still running the PWK?
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Stock carb, ...stock bore, stroke,head, porting, everything is stock except Pipe, silencer, reeds, bolt-mod and timing. IMO, only, and correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, I have been wrong before, plenty, so don't take my opinion only, but if you are putting out more power than stock with mods like porting and head work, you would be richer than stock jetting. I think, to put out more power with a mod, it takes more fuel to run that mod. Otherwise, a stock motor should be close to stock jetting, with the main maybe two sizes one way or another, max. Clip position, would be stock or adjusted up or down one to tweek power delivery.
My theory is sketchy ,as there is always exceptions, PC actually recommends a clip adjustment to one leaner than stock. That confuses me. A worn cylinder and rings will often require richer jetting. I don't quite understand that. Its important to do one thing at a time, keep notes on settings, results and temperatures. Keep in mind a drastic temperature change (like 30 degrees) cooler will lean out the jetting and, if it warms up 30, it will start causing a rich condition. Any attemt to "fix" jetting that has no or poor results, go back to original setting before trying something else. Then make a note. Over time those notes will speed up the process for you.
Worn reeds, worn cylinders, smashed pipes, poor throttle cable operation, dirty air fiters, carboned up powervalves, old fuel, wrong spark plug, weak spark, worn carb, obstructed exhaust, or just about any uncontrolled variable will make it harder than without these hurdles.
Also, it is important to remember, mixture screws and needle adjustments, make a big impact. shifter cart guys will tweak mixture in the middle of a lap. Small adjustments can make a big difference. It may seem like you get the motor running right, but then notice it revs to the top of that gear too fast. Don't be afraid to go taller gearing when looking for more power. The 500 can pull taller gearing than a 250 comfortably. Check plug color when engine performance is in question.
By the way, the 02-03 Cr 250's are very fast bikes (case/reed motor). I read an article that said they were putting out like 8hp over previous years. And many hillclimbs, my kx250 runs a better time than the 500. I continue to tweek on it, but the 500 will never be twice as fast like expected. There are still all the factors like traction, gearing, chasis and fear probably, that seperates them.
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Tried to tune yesterday
3000' elevation
160 main
50 pilot
needle second clip
stock slide
don't see a difference from 1.25-2.5 turns on airscrew
idle screw almost all the way in (spring almost compressed)
40:1 ratio
idles for a few minutes (3-5) then will die or will idle high, depending on screw. Can't find a good balance in between.
Something I've noticed: Full throttle blows smoke, idle- 1/2 doesn't at all.
When I have it pinned, it blows pretty smelling smoke, and will after that every time I "bing" it shortly after the full throttle blast. this can bee seen from my above videos.
But, when it idles for a while, it acts like it doesn't have any oil and won't smoke for nothing, even after I bing it. This is after idling for a while. which makes me think the pilot is lean, but the main is good. What do you think?
Get paid tonight, so I'll order the other pilots in the 50s tomorrow, but I'm close to idling now and I'm afraid to kill that progress. It's better than killing the motor though!!! :|
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Good - I ran 158/50 in Tahoe around 7500' in summer 90 heat - went fine. BUT that was after I put new reeds in - I'd played for weeks before that, couldn't get anything right. I didn't go back through your posts to see if you'd done the reeds yet?
Also, if you're blowing gunk from the pipe & no top-end I'm thinking you may have too much backpressure from the muffler- have you re-packed recently?
Hope this helps...
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Looks like the jetting chart is saying a 55 for the pilot. Have you set the floats and checked reeds? When you are switching back and forth on fuels and oils, I hope you are rinsing the tank out. Have you eyeballed the powervalve rod to see that it works right? The idle screwed in all the way opens the slide and overcomes the fuel or air shortage of the pilot. That will add to the over rev., and be harder to notice mixture changes. Is it possible you have some blockage in the pilot circuit? Sounds like you are too close to have all this going on. Kam pointed out that clogged overflows can be tricky to diagnose.
I can tell you for sure, that my 500 is running great, but does not rev-out like my 250. The k5 has all the bottom end I could want, it does wheelie on any traction, but is shorter power bursts. Its like the power pushes through the rpm range faster. Shorter overall rpm range than a 250 and get there twice as fast. I am geared taller than my 250 and still shift sooner. :?
I had a rich sounding and smoking condition with a Rad valve. It ran good, but not like it runs with the V-force. Its super crisp now, instead of the raspy sound that I had before. Also, I used to have a cold-natured condition that has went away. By cold-natured I mean, it used to be loaded up after a cold start. I used to have to get the power on the pipe to get the 500 to clean out. Don't know how V-force could have changed all of that, but there you go, thats all I changed.
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Good,
The 55 or 58 is more reasonable for your altitude and 40:1, and it agrees with the jetting chart. Your 50 sounds waaay lean. Cam.
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I have rode my 2003 k5 in several places, different temp/humidities and elevations and haven't touched my carb since installing vforce 2, jfab reed spacer and a Dial a jet on my carb. I am happy with the performance of the dial a jet so far bike running clean and crisp. Anyone else out there try one of these yet?
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I just checked out my jetting today since ive only had it awhile. its a 1991 kx500 with full PC exhaust and it is completely stock 168 main/60 pilot jet. i checked the plug first and it was really wet and i could tell it was running really rich. i am in california and ride mostly desert i am gonna try a 165/58 or some smaller ones as well i have to see what the dealer has. and also it does sound like its too rich, also alot of black splooge always comes out of the haeader and silencer big time. heard that is because it is running too rich and my mixing is at 32:1 but am thinking of switching to 40:1.
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By the way, the 02-03 Cr 250's are very fast bikes (case/reed motor). I read an article that said they were putting out like 8hp over previous years.
The 02-07 CR250's have been consistent dyno performers, along with the KTM case reed motors, but the CR's have notoriously weak low-ends. I know, I have an 02 (eventual CR500AF donor) and an 07. They also don't have huge over-rev, but they hit like gangbusters in the mid-range.
Honda did not fully develop these motors, as proof of the success of the KTM case reed and some poor design items in the CR motor. (Large case volume, large squish clearance, etc.)
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well here is my jetting question. bike is getting harder and harder to start, espectially when motor is hot or warm. been getting worse since the temp has been going up. bike currently is at 172 main, 55 pilot, needle second from the top and air screw 2 turns out. seems like is too rich, plug looks a little fat and bike will start in one kick if new plug put in. my first instinct is to put in a smaller pilot but im always leary of going to lean. is my thought process currect or not? btw im at 1300' elevation. thanks
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Slow,
172 seems rich, even at your altitude of 1300'. The 55 is about right possibly a touch lean for colder weather. I need more info:
1. What is your needle and clip position?
2. Type of riding
3. Plug heatrange and type.
4. premix Oil brand and mix ratio
5. Perfomance modifiations.
6. Is the float level set correctly.
Cam.
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my bike had stock jetting with 168main/60pilot and ran good at 1000-2000ft but seemed to splooge a ton and seemed like it was a little rich and didnt have that topend punch. so i changed the main to a 162 and pilot to 55 seems to have more topend zing. and i will test it out this weekend to see how it runs and if the splooge stops i mix it at 32:1 and like to put enough oil in the gas to be safe. will probly lean the main out more when i go to kennedy meadows which is 7500-9000ft in elevation but dont know how lean. thanks
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Slow,
172 seems rich, even at your altitude of 1300'. The 55 is about right possibly a touch lean for colder weather. I need more info:
1. What is your needle and clip position? not sure needle type, second clip from top
2. Type of riding. street legal supermoto
3. Plug heatrange and type. standard ngk
4. premix Oil brand and mix ratio. belray 50:1
5. Perfomance modifiations. kips bolt, pc platinum 2, pc silencer, window piston, thin head gasket.
6. Is the float level set correctly. float set correct
i obviously wasnt fully prepared for this, thanks for the help. my gut says go down on pilot to resolve hot start issue, gonna go back to 170 main since it seems to run stronger that way.
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I recently thought I had a jetting problem when I noticed my 88 wasn't running right at higher RPMs. It has warmed up here a lot lately, and when we put it together recently we jetted it a bit rich just to protect the shiny new parts during break in. I actually used Dumonde Tech break in oil. It still ran great at low RPMsn but would sputter and dog out up high. I thought for a minute about the plug, but figured if it was fouled it wouldn't run at all. After talking to a friend I changed the plug and what a difference! Cleaned up completely. Runs great again. The pilot was a bit rich, but with some minor air screw adjustment is much better too. I just wanted to share what I learned about how a fouled plug will still run, just not efficiently.
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hi guys.. i was looking at some of the jetting charts on here and seen that my carb i way out. it has a kiehin pwk with a 162 main and a 50 something pilot jet with the clip on the 1st notch. but the bike actually loads up on the bottom end.... what gives??? after starting and warm up it takes to 3rd gear to clear out. even when its hot if you idle down a long hill it will load up alittle. i mix it 40-1 with amsoil full synthetic for power valves with 110 mixed 50/50. any one have any idea....
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500,
There's a couple things right off that might be affecting your jetting.
Air filter clean & Oiled properly.
Float level set correctly.
Is the choke working O.K.
Crank seal drawing in tranny fluid.
Has the Carb Body been bored out.
Has anyone modified the main jet or is it a real Keihin.
Has the needle been modified.
Are the reeds in good shape , if they are not lying flat (Closed) there could be a tendancy for air to actually flow back and forth through the carb and pick up additional fuel.
Has the cylinder been bored out to a larger size.
Well, Right off this will give us some more info to track down this buggar...
Tuck\o/
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i did a full rebuild on the engine about 10 hrs ago, so i know the seals are good. the carb isnt bored and the float setting is fine. the choke works fine, when you pull it when its warm it revs then loads up. it is bored to 86.5mm and ported. the reeds are new boysen two stage. it had the stock carb on it running 1 seize bigger main jet. i got the keihin off of a cr and had to adjust the needle leaner with smaller jetting, and it runs rich.... the plug after running is brown and has some oil left on it.
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500,
Thank you for a bit more info. :-)
The Cr's come with a Keihin PJ, is that the model your running on the bike?
(the jet and needles are interchangeable w/the PWK 39.5,38,38 Air Stryker and PJ)
The PJ's idle circuit it tied in to the choke. Do you rotate the choke knob for the Idle adjustment?
Tuck\o/
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Anyone live in Colorado or ride at these elevations? I am trying to find out what your jetting is if you do. I have my YZ 250 dialed in for elevation and I'd like to get the KX 500 too.
TIA-
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no the choke doesnt adjust idle.
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500,
The PJ's Idle circuit is Tied to the choke. I'll try to find an illustration.
The bottom of the pj carbs choke looks like #13 in the diagram.
https://www.justatv.com/pages/keihin_pj_parts_diagram/pj_par6.gif
As you rotate the choke knob it should increase or decrease the idle.
If you have an Idle screw that lifts the slide we will have to determine just what exactly you have.
This is the PWK
http://www.sudco.com/Diagrams123/exppwk.gif
Note the choke knob assembly #2 and the idle screw #29 ( which is absent in the PJ )
Do you have the screw type Idle adjustment?
Tuck\o/
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the idle adjust isnt the choke. it has a adjuster screw, the carb came of a 95 cr, and as far as i know its a pwk.
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500,
The Cr's all came with 38mm PJ's from the factory, You do, I believe have a PWK.
I am also led to believe it is either a 38mm or 38mm air stryker.
There are some markings on the side of the carb body near the where the float bowl attaches.
If possible could verify that nomenclature. It should have PWK and some letter /number combinations.
And if you happen to have the carb off sometime, measure across the opening that goes in the engine side airboot. That will tell you the actual mm.
The smaller carb has a greater air velocity than a larger one. That's why your jetting appears to be so lean.
(Or at least for a 39.5 PWK)
The Jetting you currently have is not all that far of a PWK air striker I bought and put on my CR for singletrack / Woods riding.
If you snoop around CR500Riders.com and search air stryker in the tech section this info should pop up.
( Those guys were also concerned about the small jet sizes)
If it ain't broke don't fix it my grandpa used to say.
I know it did make a noticable difference on my CR. However I don't have a lot of WOT riding here to notice any loss of top end.
I was more worried about hanging on!
I have no doubt you got the carb off the CR. How it may have got there...may be another story.
Tuck\o/
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well... this is what i came up with. it says pwk-j755-fg31 and it measured 39.5mm. i usually run half to WOT. it just sounded way off to me, and i didnt want to melt the piston down. thanks for the info.
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Hi guys , I just picked up a 98 kx500 that has been sitting for the last 3 years. Got it really cheap with a title but i don't know much about these big bores except they are monsters. I cleaned the carb out , new plug , fresh gas. It has a fmf gnarly gold series pipe on it and uni air filter ( no lid on air box ) and i live in Ohio . The jet in it now is a 172 , does anyone know if this should have a bigger jet in it due to the pipe ? ? Also i have mixed 3 oz. of klotz R50 to 1 gallon of 94 ( thats what a local shop told me to mix ) and it seems really rich in a heated garage. I don't really plan on riding it until it warms up , it's only 25 degrees here now. Any help would be great ! Thanks
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Sounds like a good find. I think 172 is a little fatter than my 500. 170 is what I usually run. There is a jetting chart that is found on a sub-menu on the main page that is very accurate. Also FMF has their own recommendations. If they both are the same, you really will know the answer. I think the FMF just adds a step fatter on the needle adjustment from stock and the Pro Circuit goes leaner a step. Of course, if its aint stock, it's only going to give you a starting point. It will probably sound fat in the garage idling before it gets warmed up and cleaned out. Jetting for the main is changed when its running fat Wide open. You are thinking the idle jet is fat, but I would wait to see how it acts after riding til cleaned out good.
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OK , Thanks for your help. I paid 500.00 for it with a title , brother in law just lost intrest in it and wanted it out of his garage. I got it started after about 5 kicks after i cleaned her up. One issue that i am having is the kick starter , seems like about 2 kicks out of 5 it goes slack. I ordered a new ratchet gear and spring for it so i hope that fixes the issue , is that hard to change out ? This might not be the right thread for this question so sorry.
Thanks
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kick starter.
http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,2318.0.html
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I contacted Sudco to try and purchase some jets. Found out they only sell them in a four pack. Im curious how your buying the singles?
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P.J.
If there is not a bike shop in the area ( Like Myself) there are severl other options.
Most other motosport, Service Honda etc will sell individual jets.
I would recommend making sure the jets are actually Keihin. (drunken star stamp)
I have had several bikes over and although the jets were the correct dimensions externally, the flow rates were questionable. I had a crf80 one of the kids friends re-jetted and appeared to have done everything to get his kids bike to run properly. It would start and idle great but at half throttle it wouls stumble, and die if you tried to open it up. The culprit was an off brand main. I had a keihin, put it in and we got it to scream.
This may have been an isolated incident, but someone else may be able to verify the same type story...
Tuck\o/
http://www.carbparts.com/
http://www.jetsrus.com/
http://www.motorcyclecarbs.com/index.cfm
http://www.factorypro.com/products/Jets,%20Keihin,%20buy.htm
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P.J.
If there is not a bike shop in the area ( Like Myself) there are severl other options.
Most other motosport, Service Honda etc will sell individual jets.
I would recommend making sure the jets are actually Keihin. (drunken star stamp)
I have had several bikes over and although the jets were the correct dimensions externally, the flow rates were questionable. I had a crf80 one of the kids friends re-jetted and appeared to have done everything to get his kids bike to run properly. It would start and idle great but at half throttle it wouls stumble, and die if you tried to open it up. The culprit was an off brand main. I had a keihin, put it in and we got it to scream.
This may have been an isolated incident, but someone else may be able to verify the same type story...
Tuck\o/
http://www.carbparts.com/
http://www.jetsrus.com/
http://www.motorcyclecarbs.com/index.cfm
http://www.factorypro.com/products/Jets,%20Keihin,%20buy.htm
I understand I can buy the kleihin at any local shop. I was just trying to avoid the higher cost. Sudco has some really good pricing. If you know what i mean.,
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The cheapest I have found at my local place is around $6.50 BTW.
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I just checked my jetting while going through my bike, I have a 172 main and a 50 pilot. :? I am going to order some more jets tomorrow, I think I will start with 168/55. 99 K5, engine is stock as far as I know besides the crank being balanced, FMF Gnarly with FMF Turbine Core, 40:1 castor 927 and 91 octane.
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Just pulled my carb apart on the 500 for the first time to do a little cleaning before heading to Oceano dunes (pacific coast in CA) tomorrow morning. It did have a 168 Main in it, but had swapped to a 172 to try to get it to stop pinging in mid-range on 91 octane (now running 110 leaded and problem is gone). Pulled the 172 out and exchanged for a 165 and yanked the pilot (which as 58) and replaced with a 55. Trying to get some of the blubber out of this thing by leaning a bit (until I get some surging then coming back). It's got a Zip Ty pipe and silencer on it, RAD valve (which I'm seriously thinking aout replacing). Runs okay but doesn't feel like a 500.
I was thinking of getting a couple steps in either direction (from stock) to play with but don't want to spend all weekend long jacking with jets in the sand if I don't have to. What do you think of 165/55 on 110L fuel with current mods?
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My bike is not a 500, but didnt bother making a new topic to the 125/250 side. So i borrow this one.
My bike runs nice at 3/4 throttle. I did a plug test and it was perfectly tan (@ 3/4) . When i open my throttle to max, it feels like the bike stalls. Aren't main jet and needle taper only responsible for 3/4-1 throttle openings? This claims ( http://www.nsr-world.com/tuning/250-tuning/carburation%20index/jetting/images/jet-chart.gif ) that needle position makes no difference at 3/4-1 position.
Main jet is stock, Pro circuit and Boyesen recommends the stock main jet.
Im too afraid to do a wot run and then do a plug test.
Am i too lean or what?
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I have seen bad spark plug caps do that. Partially clogged main. Powervalve gummed up. And of course the almighy answer of "crank seals." Reed corners gone. Contaminates like water in the gas, but then you would also have popping and probably stalling.
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Hey all. I got my cherry 95 K5 out after a long recovery of a broken right leg. I did a hotlap around my 15 acre woods and found that at 3/4 to wot it was flat and falling on its face. Upon removing the carb i found a tiny and i mean tiny piece of varnish on the needle jet and in main jet. A can of carb cleaner and a bit of elbow grease removed the offending goo. Reassembled,reinstalled the carb after inspecting everything, Holy Cow she is a missile now!. Back to 100% I just would like to give everyone a big thank you for having this site and all of the awesome technical info and advice. When the K5 is running great its a blast there is no comparison!! Sandman
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Anyone here know about a DGH needle? Thats what i have in my 92 k5. I went ahead and ordered a N82M cause it seems thats what everyone is running with good results. Just didnt know about the DGH.
Thanks,
Ryan
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I Have a problem getting my bike to run properly in the top end, its almost bogging out..I have a FMF exhaust,vforce3,ported n polished cylinder with a wiseco piston jetted now with a 175main 58 pilot and needle on the 2nd clip from the top. It runs much better than before with the 168main at 3clip on needle but it will not got past 3/4 throttle so im a little confused at the moment as ive been playing with it for a few days. Should I go more gas since its +1 piston or...? Any suggestions would be appreciated for sure :|
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i have no idea what jets you need to run but i can offer some carburation theory. you say the you are on a +1 piston. if the cc of an engine is increased then the volume of fuel/air pulled throught the carb is increased and as it is being drawn through the same size venturi (the carb is standard) the velocity of the fuel/air has to increase. if velocity is increased then pressure in the venturi is lower. so in theory the jets would need to be reduced in size if running a larger piston. however 1mm on and 86mm bore would not make much difference
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Hmmm Def got me thinking! When I swapped from the 168 main to 175 it ran better both down low and up top so I was planning on trying a 178 or 180 main with more adj on air and smaller pilot? I will have to say that I officially hate jetting! lol
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Hmmm Def got me thinking! When I swapped from the 168 main to 175 it ran better both down low and up top so I was planning on trying a 178 or 180 main with more adj on air and smaller pilot? I will have to say that I officially hate jetting! lol
I didnt read your first post..
But if your motor is stock... with that jetting (178)... somthing is up.
Float hight... or air leak..
Ive seen it many times... guys Jetting their bikes... thinking their jettings wrong.. when they are only compensating for other "issues" (air leaks)
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so do i. i wasnt saying you should go down i just thought i would add that info to the thread. if your engine is running better as you go up in jet size then go in that direction. 168 main is standard so 180 is getting high. what altitude and temp are you at, are there any air leaks
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Where should I check for leaks? Only place I could begin to think is the airbox to airboot..I did seal it up but maybe Its leaking air..The bike sounds good until I give it full throttle it loads up but loads up less than it did with the 168.
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Motor has Wiseco +1 Piston,Port and Polished Cylinder, Vforce3 Assembly,FMF gnarly exhaust with powercore 2 silencer, 40:1 with 175m/58p 2ndclip on needle
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Where should I check for leaks? Only place I could begin to think is the airbox to airboot..I did seal it up but maybe Its leaking air..The bike sounds good until I give it full throttle it loads up but loads up less than it did with the 168.
Leak Down test.
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Allright well im going to look into that as i have never heard and will be playing with the bike over the next few days after work, I might end up just taking it back to my engine builder due to having the motor built before my chassis was ready so here I stand with a complete bike that runs 95% lol
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Can anybody help me out with a general point of reference on cleaning up my top end? Will going to a smaller pilot and in on the air screw help? I still have yet to get it 100% and am a little lost :/ I have a 175main with 58pilot on the 2nd clip from the top 40:1...
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Just wanted to say that the graph is dead on for my setup and I thought it would be good for me to share my setup with everyone in case someone else has the same setup and needs to get their jetting right.
I have the gnarly pipe with boyeson 2 stage pro reeds (carbon fiber) with moose spacer on the carb side instead of against the jug I have a custom 8" pro circuit 304 silencer the bike has 14/47 stock gearing I run 94 octane fuel with amsoil 2 stroke oil.
I am in southwest michigan at 1200 feet above sea level and it's 80-90 degrees outside I mix my oil and gas at 32 to 1 because a properly jetted bike runs great at that mixture and runs at the right temperature in my experience.
I have a 165 main jet with the stock needle in the 3rd clip position or middle and a 58 pilot jet I tried a leaner pilot and it kept cutting out and running real hot and I tried the 60 and it was sluggish same with the main I tried the stock jet it was fat or rich and tried a 162 it was lean and ran hot so for this type of bike with these aftermarket mods this is the setup just like the graph says it should be.
165 main jet
stock needle middle or 3rd slot
58 pilot jet
amsoil synthetic mixed 32 to 1
58 pilot jet
amosil synthetic mixed 32 to 1
air screw out 1 3/4 turn
idle screw is turned out 4 or 5 turns and the bike idles perfectly nice slow idle
I should mention that I installed the boyeson 2 stage pro reeds in the stock reed block with sock reed stops because I've had rad valves and never liked that when hot it would get reed flutter at high rpm with no reed stops and it would even suck a reed when run real hard from time to time
I have instant throttle response from this bike and it pulls very hard all the way to max speed where it finally runs out of gear and the spark plug is a perfect chocolate milk color after a few throttle chops, I know that this is the way a 500 should run and this bike has the original stock engine and it's a 2002 model year so imagine how it would run with some engine work or even a fresh engine but I bought it from a older gentleman that was the original owner that is why I know it's the original engine.
Nice article
http://twostrokemilitia.jfn3.com/tech_articles.html
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I'm new here and just bought an 03 and it's running awful! Surfing really bad and not clean at all. Haven't done any throttle chops yet. That seems to be key to proper jetting. Engine is stock, even the pipe. I'll update after some throttle chops when I get time.
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Always rem that smoking on a two stroke is usually related to the premix ratio...and from experience the"factory recommendations" for such are to save the factory from having to honor any form of warranty-implied or otherwise...when we raced, we ran castrol at 50-1,with no major wear issues...of course we were doing strip downs every other race,so we could keep an eye on any potential issues. Consequently, I consider 32-1 a max oil ratio,anything greater usually just means replacing fouled plugs(I don't like running too hot of a plug-and bp8es to drop the electrode deeper into the dome-it clears the piston and theoretically creates a better flame front...)when we ran (factoring recommended)20-1we usually couldn't make it thru a moto w/o fouling. I'm running team green specs w/168 mains...BelRay synthetic@ 40-1.plug runs tan-no oil fouls...of course I'm at sea level now,so a rejet is in order and I'm no longer running in 100+temp days.Im assuming (the smoke)is blue and not black of course...
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given....... I havnt read MOST of this thread. but I havnt seen anyone discuss how premix viscosity affects jetting... :roll:
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Come on someone.... Bite..... He's trying to set the hook.... :roll:
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The thicker the goo the slower the motion.
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The thicker the goo the slower the motion.
thats what she said.
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Depends on the girth of the jet.
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given....... I havnt read MOST of this thread. but I havnt seen anyone discuss how premix viscosity affects jetting... :roll:
Or lubricity.....
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i run at all my green 2 stroke monsters 40 : 1 mix (only motul)
i tried in the first 32 : 1 and came more oil than smoke out of exhaust. (this rich mix i only use at new or complete rebuilded engines. 1 or 2 tank fillings than back to 40 : 1.)
some guys ride 50 : 1 . ktm says in manual book up to 60 : 1 for 250cc -380cc motors. maico and zabel (sidecar motors based on maico 500) says up to 100 : 1 mix for the 500cc - 700cc motors with their special oil ..
but i think i´m on the safe side with 40 : 1 mix. engine runs clear. piston look always like fresh installed, when i pull cylinder. :-)
its a simple rule: less oil in the mix = more effective power from the gas. but never take too lean mix or cheap bad oil, that will risking engine damage that one!! :|
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Something like that,
When you increase the mix ratio
(reduce the amount of oil mixed in the gas) this makes the engine run richer.
You will have "more" gas and "less" oil going through your carb at any given time.
Anytime the oil ratio is changed, the carb jetting should be adjusted.
The same holds true when you decrease the mix ratio (increase the amount of oil mixed in the gas).
Increasing the amount the amount of oil will make your engine run leaner, if you add too much oil you run the risk of engine damage if you don't re-jet the carb.
Of course, you could adjust the mix to compensate for jetting issues. Most guys adjust their jetting to the riding conditions.
Tuck\o/
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correctly... :-)
and I always say first take the right mix to ride in the tank, then you can start fine tuning and jetting. at least it is a good bike .. all my bikes start at 2 -3 kicks.
with my KX500 was a really hard way to find the correct jetting. as i started the project I had only individual parts. I bought the engine with ignition and mikuni carb, but there were no jets, needle and slide in it. on ebay I found a keihin pwk 39, I drilled it up to 40mm. then at my kawasaki dealer I found in the spare parts lists which stock needle is used in the kx500E-models. then I had to do in 2 long weeks to find the correct pilot and main jet and needle clip position.
then I found kx riders.com and i saw i was exactly on the right way. I can only say it again and again, great web site :-D
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Loved reading the Engine Chart and Carb tuning. Just learned a lot can't wait to try it out. Have 87 500 mods, Pro Circuit pipe a reed spacer and stock carb settings. Just rebuilt top end . Smokes to much, plug wet . Going to check timing then adjust air screw. Run 32 to 1 Bel -Ray. Maybe try 50 to 1 . Been using Bel- Ray since the eighties when I races Moto in HighSchool . :-P
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Starting Point (http://www.pitbull-racing.com/jetting.html)
You guys EVER gonna figure out the search function at the top of the forums? :lol:
i searched for jetting chart but didn't get a spec sheet. i guess i'm being stupid but i would like to see this jetting chart if someone could share a link to it or let me know where I can see it???
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http://www.oem-cycle.com/KX500JETTINGGUIDE.shtml (http://www.oem-cycle.com/KX500JETTINGGUIDE.shtml)
http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=109 (http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=109)
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Hi Guys, I just picked up a mint 1985B1 KX500 with a Mikuni VM40SS Carb, and was looking for some basic / sea level jetting specs? :?
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Hi Guys, I just picked up a mint 1985B1 KX500 with a Mikuni VM40SS Carb, and was looking for some basic / sea level jetting specs? :?
which performance makes the bike?
to lean? (white sparkplug)
to rich? (sparkplug looks always black and exhaust is wet with unburned oil)
ideal is when the plug looks dark brown ... only other info i could give is on this website in the parts-shematics.
www.cmsnl.com
oem-needles for the 85 are no more available. jets you could buy by any mikuni-shop for the mikuni-vm-carb
but never forget, if the bike performs well, dont change the jetting... :wink:
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Hi Guys, I just picked up a mint 1985B1 KX500 with a Mikuni VM40SS Carb, and was looking for some basic / sea level jetting specs? :?
Stock jetting on an 85 B1 is...
Main-380A
Needle-6DJ2
Jet Needle-R2
Pilot-40
...see if this is what you have, if so, run it...do a wide open throttle chop run and check your plug....chances are, it'll be a touch on the rich side, because Kawie ships them out from the factory setup on the richer side and at sea level.
Another thing to keep in mind is, these specs are for U.S. bikes.....so if you're outside the U.S., your stock jetting will more than likely be slightly different than what I listed.
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mine was sticking on when I first kicked it over but then a few minutes late it would settle down but no tunning ther so I stripped the kiehin and the jets wer in a bad way so im ponderin the idea of a jd carb kit lol they look great ibet the bike runs wicked with one of them in just the shippin is well expensive to uk :|
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OK here we go again guys. 1994 kx500 TMR MOTOR, port, head and exhaust valve mod, .26mm head gasket, FMF Fatty pipe stock silencer. I'm at 3300 ft I recently had to change from running straight VP C-12 TO running 50/50 blend VP C-12 and 92 octane pump gas at 48:1 redline oil. Tom told me to run a 178 main, 60 pilot, needle 4th from top and air screw 1.5 out. It is running rich all throughout! Any input guys? :?
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3300 ft and that jetting you should be spooging all over and having to clean out the top end by reving it frequently, or just deal with a blubbery bike.
I run 55/168 at 0-1000 ft and needle at the middle position.
I run 92 clear gas with motol 800 at 40:1
Both my k5's run clean and fast.
Look here for how to set up your jetting:
http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=109 (http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=109)
Follow the directions there, start with your pilot jet first, then move on.
I'm guessing that you will be running leaner then me but go slow, and follow the directions, and check your plug color frequently.
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When I was running straight VP WITH 60 pilot, 172 main, needle in middle, air screw 2&1/4 out. It ran tits and burned perfect should I go back with that setup maybe fatten up the air screw a lil
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mynes fouling plugs now,was running fine lastweek at the track ,25:1 mix ,pilot 2turns out ,changed gas put fresh mix in today fouled 2 plugs ,gonna turn screw out 1 n half turns see wat happens.
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Hi everyone,
After playing with my 500 for the last year or so, I bit the bullet and bought a pwk39 as nothing I did to the carb on the bike when I bought it made it run well. I am putting the down to worn internals an the emulsion tube (or needle jet, depending on terminology).
Since then, it is jetted nicely now for idle (45p, n82m on the top clip and num7 slide, with a 165 main. I ride in hotter climates and only really up to 1000m)
I can't seem to lean out the mid range any more as the plug is always black and I went and got my hands on a n82n and p needles. The question I have is "Is the n needle on the bottom clip leaner than the m needle on the top clip. And is it the same for the p compared to the n".
I know when you play with other needles like cem vs a dem needle, it leans off the first part of the throttle opening, but I was hoping someone could tell me about the n82 series.
TSF
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Anybody????
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The lower the clip position the richen you get. As far as the p and n go, you'll have to wait for someone else to chime in
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P is leaner than the N...I run a T.
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(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/KX500AF%20PROJECT/NEEDLE.jpg)
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he wants to know the comparsion between the n and m needle in respect to full lean on one and full rich on the other.....my advice would be to map both needles....you can work it out that way
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Yes ylwgtr, that is the answer i am looking for.
Well, I tried the N82n on the bottom clip (a short video link on the video post) and it worked well. Better than the m needle. Ran cleaner and pulled clean from down low. Tried it then on the middle clip (leaning it off) and I felt it might have been too lean. Went second clip from the bottom. I have concluded that the n is leaner than the m and the bike is running very nicely now. It idles no problems and doesn't load up in the slow stuff. Only a slight puff of smoke when cracked from idle and the throttle then closed. I am more than happy now.
Final settings at this stage:
P 48
Screw 1.5 out
Needle n82n on second clip from bottom
Main 165.
TSF
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For the hardcore...
52 pilot 2.5 turns
150 main
N82R needle in 1st position (leanest)
320 ft above sea level
...not that im advising anyone to do this...
My pig will get along...my life has flashed before my eyes soooo many times ;)
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holy boiler maker :-o...how much WOT runs are you doing with those settings?...with what carb, and type of fuel and pre-mix ?
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Stock pwk 39 carb and 7 slide
90 octane free of ethanol
32:1 supertech (cheap walmart brand)
Both air box vents open
Stock porting and squish....
I never hesitate WOT, but dont need it to smoke a 4-pump-chump (friends with 4-strokers) :evil:
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have ya done any plug chops with those settings...I would have to think the plug would look "brand new" white, from being so lean...but, I've never gone that lean before either, so I could be wrong.
no pinging with those settings?
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If it pings its not noticeable...the plug is actually brownish black, but I dont hit WOT in every gear...
I see people reasoning going lean on the pilot and rich on the main is the ticket...think they should talk to desert racers for the best advice....bought mine from such a person. It has over 20 hours since I bought it from the dude...
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Just read a post on another site that runs a 148 and a 48....might need to try that with a N82T needle...as is im a little rich....
Thoughts?
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I wouldn't, but I ride in the upper revs for the most part...
when was the last time you did a compression check...or rebuilt the top-end?
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Would either cause me to run rich?
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for you to be running as lean of settings as you currently are, and saying your plug is "brownish black"...hints towards a weak top-end.
it doesn't necessarily mean it's weak, but yeah, it would cause you to have rich running symptoms.
the usable range for compression in the book is 105-164psi...for a stock motor.
It wouldn't hurt to check it...then you can rule it out, or if it is weak, you can freshin it up, cause there'd really be no reason tryin to jet a weak top-end, you'd just be going backwards.
not to mention, the leaner you go, the more stress you're putting on the motor...which only accelerates the wear.
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When I get home sunday ill post a pic of my spark plug....might be giving u the wrong color....
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Just noticed my bike doesnt surge anymore....recently moved to an altitude of 320 feet from 1800.
Smokes a good deal at startup...but smoke goes away a little when motor heats up.
Also it idles just fine hot or cold...not like before.
Anyone else running a n82r needle? What clip position and altitude?
The mid and top feel flatter than before too....use to hit like a freight train....now it feels mild.
Just replaced the air filter with a UNI....soaked it with 10w40 and squeezed out the excess with my monkey fists....still too much oil?
Setup:
FMF Fatty
52 pilot 2.5 turns
150 main
N82R needle in 1st position
Uni air filter with maybe too much oil
Both vents open
32:1 non-ethanol 90 octane (clear gas)
Ideas?
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http://oem-cycle.com/KX500JETTINGGUIDE.shtml
thats a good jetting base...
why you dont use airfilter oil?? :? .. you need no much oil . turn the airfilter inside out, take carefully enough oil on , and squeeze it a little bit , up to the point that you feel the airfilter has an little bit oily surface. turn back put on the cage and install in the bike... after that it could be that your bike will run leaner, because of the more airflow now... :wink:
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Does turning the air screw all the way in disable the pilot jet effectively?
In other words will the only gas air provided to the engine come from the main and the slide?
Want to test the main and needle only....will that work?
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Does turning the air screw all the way in disable the pilot jet effectively?
In other words will the only gas air provided to the engine come from the main and the slide?
Want to test the main and needle only....will that work?
read this thread...more so, the part that Sandblaster has posted...excellent detail.
http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,10910.0.html
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The mid and top feel flatter than before too....use to hit like a freight train....now it feels mild.
get that 150 main outa there and swap it for a 168....then report back :wink:
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Well....the excess oil drained off the air filter in the last 24 hours....Widow Maker is back to her old self...
In fact she is pulling a tad harder down low than ever before...so much so I cant work up the courage to go WOT :( the small amount of surging is back, but not horrible...
I saw a video that says when the -fuel screw- (ie...idle screw) is turned all the way in it effectively shuts the pilot jet OFF! Meaning the pilot jet will contribute zero fuel at all throttle positions....
Has anyone run their bikes with the screw all the way in?
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Does turning the air screw all the way in disable the pilot jet effectively?
In other words will the only gas air provided to the engine come from the main and the slide?
Want to test the main and needle only....will that work?
this is how a carb works.. pilot jet: from idle to 1/4 throttle turn. needle from 1/4 to 3/4 .. at full open: main jet only .
any turns on the airscrew effects only the pilot jet. is the screw 2,5 -3 turns out you need the next richer pilot jet. by less than 1 - 0,5 turns the next leaner pilot size.
the needle does the main work in performance.. by to rich you have to lowering the needle to get in leaner position.
if the needle has reached the highest clip-position, and engine is still to rich, you need next leaner needle. (example: n82m is in, then comes n82n )
has the needle reached the richest position (lowest clip position) and is still to lean, comes the next richer needle (in this szenario the n82L )...
by changing main jet never go bigger as 5er steps ... example: 170 is in and to rich you could try the 165 to get leaner or 175 for the other case of to lean.
do always test one of this things to come step by step to the perfect jetting.
always with warm engine, and in the conditions,where the bike should used.
make also sure that the airfilter is clean and oiled in the right way and also that the right gas is in the tank best premix is 1:40 with motul 800. in my eyes the best 2stroke-oil thats available to the public.
i ride only 98 or 100 octane (called super-plus here in germany)
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Does turning the air screw all the way in disable the pilot jet effectively?
In other words will the only gas air provided to the engine come from the main and the slide?
Want to test the main and needle only....will that work?
the simple answer to your question is, no.
everything needs to work together to be effective...or you'll be pissin directly into the wind.
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the simple answer to your question is, no.
everything needs to work together to be effective...or you'll be pissin directly into the wind.
"That's funny, does that rain feel warm to you???"
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the simple answer to your question is, no.
everything needs to work together to be effective...or you'll be pissin directly into the wind.
"That's funny, does that rain feel warm to you???"
:lol: :lol: :lol: 8-)
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the simple answer to your question is, no.
everything needs to work together to be effective...or you'll be pissin directly into the wind.
"That's funny, does that rain feel warm to you???"
hehe...it should...unless he's in the Antarctic!...remember these two guys? :-D
(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608036192472599696&pid=15.1&H=120&W=160&P=0)
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the simple answer to your question is, no.
everything needs to work together to be effective...or you'll be pissin directly into the wind.
"That's funny, does that rain feel warm to you???"
hehe...it should...unless he's in the Antarctic!...remember these two guys? :-D
(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608036192472599696&pid=15.1&H=120&W=160&P=0)
in antarctic that means yellow ice cubes in the wind... 8-)
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I've got one for ya'll. Got my stock 1994 KX500 12yrs ago, rode it hard since, lots of WOT, perfect jetting. No fouled plugs ever. Michigan Elevation ~1100ft.
I believe this was:
60 pilot, 1.5 turns out on the screw
168 main (since this single jet I found in my "KX500" bucket)
stock needle (for 1994 is N82R), center clip
#7 slide
Now ~3yr ago I changed the stock pipe to a FMF Gnarly, and followed whatever they recommended for main jet which was a 175 which I picked up at my local bike shop... HOWEVER... ever since, the top end feels like it falls off, and to me it feels lean at WOT. I took the carb apart today and found a "175RD" main... which I have come to learn is not an OEM jet... it's actually from here: http://ebcbrakes.com/product/main-jets-for-carburettors/
So anybody have any idea if that jet is leaner or the same as a real Keihin 175? If I put my stock 168 jet back in there... do you think that is OK with the FMF pipe? FMF recommends 175 and a 58 pilot (I have 60 pilot).
I'd say right now, it feels perfect to maybe just a bit lean from 1/4-3/4 throttle, then WOT, mid to higher RPM in my opinion seems weaker than it should... (lean).
Thanks for any suggestions!!!
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Wow!
175 at that elevation?
Seems a tad on the rich side but I looked on their website and your correct.
Then again they might be on the conservative side intentionally.
I only use Keihin jets because others seem to be inconsistent on size.
It's time for you to do some wide open runs then kill the engine and pull the plug out and see exactly what it is doing.
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sandblaster, yep I think your right. WOT it is. To make matters worse, I just went to the same bike store (3 yrs later) and got 4 more jets... 178, 180, 182, 185 however they don't have the "RD" stamped on them like they used too yet they say they are not OEM Keihin so they are likely now on a scale of there own... what a mess. At least it starts first kick, idles great.... just WOT. Should be easy enough.
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here's a couple good places for genuine Keihin jets...they know me well! :lol:
http://www.pjmotorsports.com/keihin-jets.html#pilot/slow%20jets
http://www.jetsrus.com/index.html
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I am having a lean (ping) condition at the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle position. Stock n82m needle on the 2nd clip position. Larger pilot made the bottom sluggish and tough to get an idle. Tried larger main to no avail, just got fat. Anyone have a needle suggestion to help cure this? Thanks, Bob
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see if you can locate an N82L or an N82K...the K being the richer of the two.
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I will look for one. Has anyone used a JD Jet kit? Everything is good except the ping. Thanks
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Cmoto,
What slide # are you currently running? I have had a few bikes that no matter what pilot / needle combo I tried, could not get it to run clean in that 1/4-1/2 transition until I changed the slide (all of mine were Rich Conditions).
DoldGuy
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Stock#7 slide
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If you have access to a #6 slide I would give that a try...
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if you find you can't get your hands on a "good" used slide, try the needle....a new slide will be 3+ times as much as a needle...I always try to start with the cheapest things 1st.
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Thanks, I will see where it leads me.
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not sure where to post this but im hoping that since you all are talking about jetting someone migth be able to help, i got my 1993 kx500 a few days a go and it seems to run unclean on the mid range rpms, i think this migth be one of the jets are to lean/rich, any thoughts? :?
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what needle and what clip position are you in?
your spark plug is an open book...it will tell you if it's too rich or too lean.
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what needle and what clip position are you in?
your spark plug is an open book...it will tell you if it's too rich or too lean.
how can i tell if it is to lean or rich by looking at the spark plug? (im new to two strokes)
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black or really dark brown is too rich....white or barely light tan is too lean.
a light brown/tan is where you wanna be.
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what needle and what clip position are you in?
your spark plug is an open book...it will tell you if it's too rich or too lean.
how can i tell if it is to lean or rich by looking at the spark plug? (im new to two strokes)
http://www.702sportbikes.com/showthread.php?11233-Reading-Spark-Plugs-and-Jetting-%282-Stroke-Only%29
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good site Danger...nice pics and descriptions to what I was referring to.
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what needle and what clip position are you in?
your spark plug is an open book...it will tell you if it's too rich or too lean.
how can i tell if it is to lean or rich by looking at the spark plug? (im new to two strokes)
http://www.702sportbikes.com/showthread.php?11233-Reading-Spark-Plugs-and-Jetting-%282-Stroke-Only%29
that guy made a lot of sense! i don't know what kind of gas mixture is in my tank now becuse i just got the bike, and i don't know what ''stock'' mixing rate is so to speak but im thingin about going for a 32:1, but check the spark plug first then clean it and se if i can't get the jetting rigth :-D
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i don't know what ''stock'' mixing rate is so to speak but im thingin about going for a 32:1
the majority of us are running 40:1...and there's some running 50:1.
there's nothing wrong with running 32:1 as long as you jet to it, and stick to 32:1....don't ever change ratios unless you jet to those changes....or it could be a very costly mistake.
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i don't know what ''stock'' mixing rate is so to speak but im thingin about going for a 32:1
the majority of us are running 40:1...and there's some running 50:1.
there's nothing wrong with running 32:1 as long as you jet to it, and stick to 32:1....don't ever change ratios unless you jet to those changes....or it could be a very costly mistake.
got any idea with mix ratio i should run with stock pilot and main jet size?
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I'm only assuming that 32:1 was the stock recommended ratio in '93...
you should write down exactly what jetting you currently have, then do a couple wide open throttle plug chops, and see how your current setup is...then make adjustments from there.
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40:1
http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-h1-r-racing-100-synthetic-ester-2t-engine-oil
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today i had a experience with the jetting wich just left me stunned, i was going to test the new clutch after all the work i've put in to the bike and found that the engine ratteld maybe even pinged (im not sure how that sounds) but the weird part is that there was excesive amout of smoke, even more that what used to be with richer jetting in warmer weahter!, i currently have 55 pilot and 165 main wheater today was 14-17 celcius a bit humid as it has been raining, i recently installed a fmf gnarly desert pipe with powercore scilencer, so what i can't understand is how come the leaner jetting in colder weahter make it seem like it's running rich and lean at the same time?
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What needle are you running and what is the position of the clip?
Something else I'm curious about, did this bike sit for a while before you started riding it?
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i have not touched the needle becuse of the way the cable connects to it, but judging from the other things i've seen previous owners do to it i doubt that it's a diffrent needle in any diffrent position, the bolt for the needle does not apear to have any tool marks on it :|
the bike has been sitting for a while ever since i started changing the linkage/swingarm bearings clutch plates and fork springs and seals and bushing, but it's only been sitting for a few days with gas in the carburetor
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Often a sudden change in jetting means a air leak.
Have you done a leakdown test?
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but the weird part is that there was excesive amout of smoke, even more that what used to be with richer jetting in warmer weahter
sounds like a clutch side crank seal failed.
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but the weird part is that there was excesive amout of smoke, even more that what used to be with richer jetting in warmer weahter
sounds like a clutch side crank seal failed.
im going to check the coolant level maybe the oil seal behind the impeller broke, or maybe the humid wheater combined with wrong jetting is enough to make it smoke like it does, acording to the sheet that followed fmf pipe the jetting recomended for 87-88 kx500 was richer then the others? maybe this has something to say about my jetting mystery?
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Often a sudden change in jetting means a air leak.
Have you done a leakdown test?
im gonna go ahead here and ask a really stupid question but how are leakdown test done?
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and i just realised that coolant level would'nt have anything to say here, hower the engine only has 5-10 hours after rebuild (or that's atleast what previous owner claimed) and unless they didn,t change the seals and bearings that means the seals should'nt be worn out, however i did notice that the clutch basket was kinda wobbely, but could this ruin the seals in just 5-10 hours?
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the engine only has 5-10 hours after rebuild, that means the seals should'nt be worn out
however i did notice that the clutch basket was kinda wobbely, but could this ruin the seals in just 5-10 hours?
the 1st sentence means absolutely nothing...seals can go at any given time, new or old.
the 2nd sentence confirms my suspicions....anything "wobbling" is bad, really bad..."usually", but not always, caused by a worn bearing, which will eventually destroy the seal.
either way, I'm thinkin you need to crack open the bottom end, and start investigating.
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the engine only has 5-10 hours after rebuild, that means the seals should'nt be worn out
however i did notice that the clutch basket was kinda wobbely, but could this ruin the seals in just 5-10 hours?
either way, I'm thinkin you need to crack open the bottom end, and start investigating.
think im going to wait for warmer and dryer wheater to make sure it's not the jetting, then when i get some money ill but some new cushions bearing and clutch, is there a way to install the clutch bearing without splitting the case?
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let me ask you this...have you noticed your gearbox oil getting low mysteriously?...if not, keep a close eye on the level.
you have all the symptoms of a bad crank seal....
at your current jetting and air temps...it should not be smoking excessively at all...
you said you hear a "rattle" coming from the motor...
you said the clutch basket "wobbles", quite possibly the "rattle" you're hearing...and a wobbling clutch basket will smoke the crank bearing(s) in time...
check the color of your spark plug...
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The clutch and bearing are on the end of the crank shaft. No splitting of the
case. Here's a break down of the '88. The bearing for the clutch shows to be
discontinued.
http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=381700&category=Motorcycles&make=KAWASAKI&year=1988&fveh=8823
Best wishes.
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Hope for the best, prepare for the worse.
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the original oil plug has been welded shut and relocated by previous owner but the weld is not a 100% tight so it's always leaking a tiny bit, nothing major, other then that oil level has always been fine, the rattle always been the for me (even on the 2013 kx250f i had) so it migth just be me being paronaid as i tend to be when it comes to my dirtbike, :| although im not actully made of money so i can't get a new clutch for a while and 87 mod appears to be extinct :|
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at this point...I myself would break the whole motor down.
the person you bought it from obviously raked you over the coals, and sold you a bike/motor that's clapped out....better to tear it all down now, and replace all the bearings and all the seals....then you KNOW what you have, and aren't "hoping" the guy that sold you it did it.
otherwise you could be having constant issues...and breaking down out in the woods, or where ever.
it sucks, I know...I've been there....that's why any used bike I buy now, gets COMPLETELY torn down, and completely gone over, with all new bearings and seals....and I don't mean just the motor...everything.
you can get the bearings made from a local bearing shop if need be...that can save you a lot of money.
OR...you can sell the motor, and use the money towards a newer motor.
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Hope for the best, prepare for the worse.
ah as always! :-D seem to do thhat alot with this bike :-P the more i work on the bike the more i realise that ''donkey's are alot like dirtbikes they are almost as stubborn!''
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at this point...I myself would break the whole motor down.
the person you bought it from obviously raked you over the coals, and sold you a bike/motor that's clapped out....better to tear it all down now, and replace all the bearings and all the seals....then you KNOW what you have, and aren't "hoping" the guy that sold you it did it.
otherwise you could be having constant issues...and breaking down out in the woods, or where ever.
it sucks, I know...I've been there....that's why any used bike I buy now, gets COMPLETELY torn down, and completely gone over, with all new bearings and seals....and I don't mean just the motor...everything.
you can get the bearings made from a local bearing shop if need be...that can save you a lot of money.
OR...you can sell the motor, and use the money towards a newer motor.
i still have a bucket of engine parts that looks to be the original motor so if im lucky i can save up some money and ship it to sandblaster and have him rebuild the original 93 engine and also find the missing parts :-o i mean if im going to spend the money on rebuilding a engine migth aswell be the newer original rigth? i just hope the is'nt a serious unfixable reason it got swapped out in the first place
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i still have a bucket of engine parts that looks to be the original motor so if im lucky i can save up some money and ship it to sandblaster and have him rebuild the original 93 engine and also find the missing parts :-o i mean if im going to spend the money on rebuilding a engine migth aswell be the newer original rigth? i just hope the is'nt a serious unfixable reason it got swapped out in the first place
that's a good plan....providing he doesn't ship you back a KX65 motor :lol: :lol: :evil:
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i still have a bucket of engine parts that looks to be the original motor so if im lucky i can save up some money and ship it to sandblaster and have him rebuild the original 93 engine and also find the missing parts :-o i mean if im going to spend the money on rebuilding a engine migth aswell be the newer original rigth? i just hope the is'nt a serious unfixable reason it got swapped out in the first place
that's a good plan....providing he doesn't ship you back a KX65 motor :lol: :lol: :evil:
well that would solve all the kids asking ''can i try?'' problem :-D
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forgot to mention but after i ran the bike for a minute with the excessive smoke i looked at the air screw and it was 2 turns out, could this with the dense humidity make it smoke alot?
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nope.
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nope.
AAaaannd im back at engine rebuild :-D
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Often a sudden change in jetting means a air leak.
Have you done a leakdown test?
im gonna go ahead here and ask a really stupid question but how are leakdown test done?
not a stupid question...it just shows you're willing to learn....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdq7NRcUIp8
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Often a sudden change in jetting means a air leak.
Have you done a leakdown test?
im gonna go ahead here and ask a really stupid question but how are leakdown test done?
not a stupid question...it just shows you're willing to learn....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdq7NRcUIp8
seems like something i could do, anyone that sells a leakdown kit?
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seems like something i could do, anyone that sells a leakdown kit?
this specific one isn't cheap...but the quality is worth it...
http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/partno/08-0071/
you can always make your own too.
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this is alot like how my bike smokes sounds and runs, i'll try to film my own bike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VrCN9GY_qo
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this is alot like how my bike smokes sounds and runs, i'll try to film my own bike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VrCN9GY_qo
I bet there wasn't many mosquito's around after that brief warm up :lol:
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the bike has been sitting a while with gas in the tank and the carburetor has been leeking gas too, could this affect the bikes jetting?
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the bike has been sitting a while with gas in the tank and the carburetor has been leeking gas too, could this affect the bikes jetting?
sounds like the float valve is worn and/or the float valve seat...I would try a new OEM float valve 1st, don't buy the aftermarket trash.
float valve...
(http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac152/foxx4afoxx2/0810141806_zps87593531.jpg)
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the float bowl gasket was in good shape but it appears two of the screws was under thigthend
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as long as it doesn't start leaking out the overflow tubes for no apparent reason, then you should be good to go.
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i asked my dad about the oil seal leak, he has seen alot of coolant and oil leak smoke in his time, and suggested that it would not smoke if i just let the bike warm up proberly. so i did, and gues what barley any smoke and the bike ran fine, not perfect i probably have some jetting to do, but for the first time since i bought the bike i was able to experience the true 500 two stroke power.(...was scary) ill still post the video of how the bike runs prior to proper warm up incase i have missed something https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfoSwTUixQA&feature=youtu.be
other then that, the thing is a BEAST i shall call him...Rudy!
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f373/Alexander_Veldman/rudy_zpsamhof1t8.jpg)
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that looks pretty normal...I wouldn't sweat anything there...it sounds good too.
was that with a cold engine start?
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that looks pretty normal...I wouldn't sweat anything there...it sounds good too.
was that with a cold engine start?
yeah started on second stomp, i probably undersetimated the importance of proper warm up :roll:
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i probably undersetimated the importance of proper warm up :roll:
everyone has their own procedure....I myself like to keep a very steady idle at about 2500 RPM's, then when I can't hold my hand on the side of the cylinder for more than 2-3 seconds, I know it's warmed up enough to head out my trail at an easy pace, which is about a 90 second ride until I get out into the powerlines....by that time, it's warmed up enough to start rolling the throttle back, all the way :-o
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I dont think i allowed a complete war up but Around 1/8 was enough to plow the driveway in to a field ready for sowing :-o
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I dont think i allowed a complete war up but Around 1/8 was enough to plow the driveway in to a field ready for sowing :-o
beautiful! :-D
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other then that, the thing is a BEAST i shall call him...Rudy!
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f373/Alexander_Veldman/rudy_zpsamhof1t8.jpg~original)
I love it! Rudy sounds like a guy that is both fun and very mischievous at the same time...
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other then that, the thing is a BEAST i shall call him...Rudy!
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f373/Alexander_Veldman/rudy_zpsamhof1t8.jpg)
I love it! Rudy sounds like a guy that is both fun and very mischievous at the same time...
yeah that sounds like him :-D but as always thanks for the help guys!! 8-)
''what are you gonna do with thoose flimsy litlte 4 stroke's...when you run into the beast!'' https://youtu.be/jK11VUV0Vgg
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leak down test pt. 1
http://www.thumpertalk.com/blog/7/entry-144-leak-down-testing-pt-i/
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having trouble with ideling, or the lak of it, bike didn't come whit a idle screw so i orderd one and found a random nut to use as lock nut, but i have no idea how many turns from seated is stantard or good starting point :|
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Lectron 44
2.044 on a 5.2XL rod
PJ 0.75 turns out
almost bang on what they told me it would be.
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I know there is some very good baseline settings for both the 44 lectron and 39 pwk listed throughout this thread. Just wondering if anyone has some advice on baseline settings for the 41 pwk pro series and/or 38 air striker.
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I rode my 1988 KX 500 engine today, and the jetting seems very lean. The motor stumbles and just seems generally unhappy, though it idles and starts well. The motor has been bored to 88 mm, has a Wossner forged piston, 89-up CR 500 pipe, stock carb, and stock ignition in the middle timing setting. What do you guys suggest for main jet, pilot jet, needle jet, needle clip setting, etc? I'm pretty far out of my element, and I'm not even sure where to start now that the motor is bigger. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!
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I forgot to add that OKC is at 1,100' and I sometimes ride in SE Oklahoma at around 400'. Thank you!
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It was 57 degrees Fahrenheit today.
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I forgot to add that OKC is at 1,100' and I sometimes ride in SE Oklahoma at around 400'. Thank you!
Pro Circuit recommends the following at sea level for a stock bore
Main 170
Pilot 60
Needle STD
Clip 3rd
Air Screw 1.5
But, your bigger bore dictates smaller jetting.
What is currently in your carb?
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whatever you do, don't read your plug...as that will tell you what's going on. :roll:
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I forgot to add that OKC is at 1,100' and I sometimes ride in SE Oklahoma at around 400'. Thank you!
Pro Circuit recommends the following at sea level for a stock bore
Main 170
Pilot 60
Needle STD
Clip 3rd
Air Screw 1.5
But, your bigger bore dictates smaller jetting.
What is currently in your carb?
Thank you Sandblaster. I will get the carb off and see what I have in there. i just needed a starting point to see how far off I was.
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whatever you do, don't read your plug...as that will tell you what's going on. :roll:
Lol :-D
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whatever you do, don't read your plug...as that will tell you what's going on. :roll:
Lol :-D
Those things lie anyways... Piston wash reading or bust
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whatever you do, don't read your plug...as that will tell you what's going on. :roll:
Lol :-D
Those things lie anyways... Piston wash reading or bust
that'll just be your little secret.
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I got my bike pulled apart so I could get to the spark plug and carb. Here is the plug:
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag75/umberto_32/C68035CF-9239-4478-88D7-4780BE11C114_zpsrja5ky9g.jpg~original)
I tried to shut off the motor at the moment it was bogging, but I'm not sure I got that done.
The carb was setup with the following:
Main 170
Pilot 50
Needle in the 3rd position from the top, but it was a R1469M, not the stock R1369N
Air Screw was set at 1 1/2 turns
Any thoughts?
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The carb is a Keihin PKW, and the part number on the side is V563EG03. Does anyone know if that is the stock carb?
I found this one on eBay, and the number is different:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WAQAAOSwNSxVR7pt/s-l500.jpg)
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Plug chop. I think there's enough room in the field to do this if you want.
I'll go get my 2004 carb. give me a minute.
http://kawtriple.com/mraxl/carb/plugchop.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF3tGEFQ1ZA
Picture doesn't come out clear.
G250 AR10
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There is one for sale on ebay, says it's for an 88 KX500.
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Sandblaster's awesome interchange list says that the carb I have is off a 90-93 KX 500 (if I'm reading it correctly). The 88 carb on eBay says V396, which matches the list as well.
http://www.oem-cycle.com/KAWASAKIKX500BIKEID.shtml (http://www.oem-cycle.com/KAWASAKIKX500BIKEID.shtml)
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Plug chop. I think there's enough room in the field to do this if you want.
I'll go get my 2004 carb. give me a minute.
http://kawtriple.com/mraxl/carb/plugchop.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF3tGEFQ1ZA
Picture doesn't come out clear.
G250 AR10
I will take you up on that offer. I need a better plug reading for sure.
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I looked in my manual for the engine, and the stock settings are:
Main - 175
Pilot - 62
Needle - R1369N-3 in the third groove from the top
Air Screw - 1 1/2
Do you think I should start with the FMF settings, stock settings, or the current setting when I do the more in depth plug reading? The current settings were for the engine with stock bore, 89 and up sleeve, and no KIPS valves. The motor felt about the same in that as bought configuration as it does now, lazy and very reluctant to rev.
Thank you!
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I wish I knew more about your needle.
It is the correct needle for a 88 but your carb is a 90-93 which should be a N82R or similar.
I don't know how it would be effected with that 88 needle.
Perhaps someone here would know?
I'm curious, have you done a leak down test (Not a compression test) of that engine after you put the new top end on?
If not I would highly encourage you to do so.
Also, how did your reeds look?
If the reed looks good, with the seat off, start the bike and rev the throttle.
As you rev it up, put your hand over the air filter.
Can you feel air pushing back through the filter?
Is the filter wet with fuel?
If so, then it's time for some new reed pedals.
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I replaced the reeds with new Boyesen stock reeds when I was having issues with the motor the first time. I also have a VForce 2 block that I can mod if you think that would help.
The needle that is in the carb is a R1469M, the one listed in the manual is a R1369N. Is a larger number indicative of a richer or leaner needle?
I found a stock 88 carb on eBay, do you think it would be better to start over or should I try to mess with this one some more? I'm worried it might have been "modified" like the cylinder was.
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I replaced the reeds with new Boyesen stock reeds when I was having issues with the motor the first time. I also have a VForce 2 block that I can mod if you think that would help.
The needle that is in the carb is a R1469M, the one listed in the manual is a R1369N. Is a larger number indicative of a richer or leaner needle?
I found a stock 88 carb on eBay, do you think it would be better to start over or should I try to mess with this one some more? I'm worried it might have been "modified" like the cylinder was.
Try moving the needle clip position with the 1469 , Try the Top position {leanest] to see if it improves things,
if that impovement things i would tryA R1369N clip 3 and then leak down test if its still not right
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I wouldn't go from the middle position to the top with the clip...that's too big of a jump at once....try the 2nd from top to start to be safe.
I also agree on finding the correct needle for THAT carb...the N82R...I probably have something within a couple "steps" or two of the "R"...I might have an N82P. I can send one to you if you can't find one.
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I am going to do a leak down test this evening to see if that is the problem or not. I'll let you guys know what I find. I won't lie, I'm pretty nervous about doing it. The last thing I want to do is tear this motor back down again.
Rocky Mountain has the N82 in K, L, M, N, and P. Any thoughts on which one I should get? The N and the P are in stock, the other ones they will have to order. Should I also update the pilot jet? The stock one is listed as a 55 (I have a 50 now), but they have 58, 60, 62, and 65 in stock.
I really appreciate all the help. I'd be lost without you guys.
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I wouldn't go from the middle position to the top with the clip...that's too big of a jump at once....try the 2nd from top to start to be safe.
I also agree with Blaster on finding the correct needle for THAT carb...the N82R...I probably have something within a couple "steps" or two of the "R"...I might have an N82P. I can send one to you if you can't find one.
As it was the wrong needle fitted i did not see any harm on trying it {though it would be like 1369n on 3rd clip ] , try every clip position if he has time :-D.
Since he got that motor on ebay, the motor might never have ran with that carb[jetting}
probably better off trying a good working kx500 carb even thought the jetting on the 88 could vary a little due to bigger case volume
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I'd snatch up a "P"...
don't buy the pilots or main jets from Rocky...they are NOT genuine Keihin, even though they're listed in the OEM Kawie parts fiche/diagram...they're cheap bootlegs.
Buy the mains and pilots from here....
http://pjmotorsports.com/
they sell Genuine Keihin jets.
you can buy the needle from Rocky, it'll be genuine.
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I am going to do a leak down test this evening to see if that is the problem or not. I'll let you guys know what I find. I won't lie, I'm pretty nervous about doing it. The last thing I want to do is tear this motor back down again.
Rocky Mountain has the N82 in K, L, M, N, and P. Any thoughts on which one I should get? The N and the P are in stock, the other ones they will have to order. Should I also update the pilot jet? The stock one is listed as a 55 (I have a 50 now), but they have 58, 60, 62, and 65 in stock.
I really appreciate all the help. I'd be lost without you guys.
Dont go turning the motor with the inlet blocked {doing the leakdown test} or u could created a leak
Sounds like you a rich on the needle though/
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I'd snatch up a "P"...
don't buy the pilots or main jets from Rocky...they are NOT genuine Keihin, even though they're listed in the OEM Kawie parts fiche/diagram...they're cheap bootlegs.
Buy the mains and pilots from here....
http://pjmotorsports.com/
they sell Genuine Keihin jets.
you can buy the needle from Rocky, it'll be genuine.
I'll do that. Thank you Foxx!
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I am going to do a leak down test this evening to see if that is the problem or not. I'll let you guys know what I find. I won't lie, I'm pretty nervous about doing it. The last thing I want to do is tear this motor back down again.
Rocky Mountain has the N82 in K, L, M, N, and P. Any thoughts on which one I should get? The N and the P are in stock, the other ones they will have to order. Should I also update the pilot jet? The stock one is listed as a 55 (I have a 50 now), but they have 58, 60, 62, and 65 in stock.
I really appreciate all the help. I'd be lost without you guys.
Dont go turning the motor with the inlet blocked {doing the leakdown test} or u could created a leak
Sounds like you a rich on the needle though/
I was going to put the piston at BDC and then plug up the motor at the intake and exhaust with expanding automotive plugs. My leakdown tester is from Harbor Freight, and works at 15 psi through the spark plug. Am I doing it correctly?
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As it was the wrong needle fitted i did not see any harm on trying it {though it would be like 1369n on 3rd clip ] , try every clip position if he has time :-D.
Since he got that motor on ebay, the motor might never have ran with that carb[jetting}
probably better off trying a good working kx500 carb even thought the jetting on the 88 could vary a little due to bigger case volume
that's all fine and dandy if you're gonna take full responsibility if something bad should happen....as we all know, these motors run extremely hot when they're jetted correctly...start leaning things out too aggressively at one time, the temps rocket up in seconds....
safer to stick with small steps at a time.
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i got a qestion abot reeds or rather the reed block, i took of the reed to install my new boyesen power reeds and inside the reed cage there was a white plastic instert that pops out, on my 93 parts engine there is no such plastic insert, and i cant find it in the oem parts list, what is this insert and what does it do?
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As it was the wrong needle fitted i did not see any harm on trying it {though it would be like 1369n on 3rd clip ] , try every clip position if he has time :-D.
Since he got that motor on ebay, the motor might never have ran with that carb[jetting}
probably better off trying a good working kx500 carb even thought the jetting on the 88 could vary a little due to bigger case volume
that's all fine and dandy if you're gonna take full responsibility if something bad should happen....as we all know, these motors run extremely hot when they're jetted correctly...start leaning things out too aggressively at one time, the temps rocket up in seconds....
safer to stick with small steps at a time.
I Was thinking a run up and down the yard {road} not a mxrace :-) it was only goin to be a quick guide
Was thinking umberto had the since to not drive it to far if was lean or not running right
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Lets get the bike out of the container and pull the carburetor, clean it up and test with it.
That would tell us quick if it's a carb problem.
That's as good a reason for me to start messing with that bike as any. It was a running
bike when I bought it years ago. It's most likely all stock.
If I remember right it's a 2002.
Let me know what day is good for you.
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Lets get the bike out of the container and pull the carburetor, clean it up and test with it.
That would tell us quick if it's a carb problem.
That's as good a reason for me to start messing with that bike as any. It was a running
bike when I bought it years ago. It's most likely all stock.
If I remember right it's a 2002.
Let me know what day is good for you.
That would be awesome! My son has a swim meet this weekend, but I might have some time on Sunday. Are you busy this weekend?
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Early would work for me 7:30/8?
No heat in the garage but the shop has heat and fork lift.
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No more than 6 psi on the leak down test, KX500 seals are captive but too much pressure can still cause problems.
Sounds like this is a good motivator for Danger to get his K5's going again & very nice he is helping out with the carb. Also would be nice for you to be able to ride a stock K5 to have the feel of, letting you know what to expect from yours. If his carb fixes your issues, remove the jet block on your PWK to inspect.
Hope all works out well,
DoldGuy
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Early would work for me 7:30/8?
No heat in the garage but the shop has heat and fork lift.
That works perfectly for me. Thank you again for letting me borrow a carb, it should help answer the question one way or the other.
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No more than 6 psi on the leak down test, KX500 seals are captive but too much pressure can still cause problems.
Sounds like this is a good motivator for Danger to get his K5's going again & very nice he is helping out with the carb. Also would be nice for you to be able to ride a stock K5 to have the feel of, letting you know what to expect from yours. If his carb fixes your issues, remove the jet block on your PWK to inspect.
Hope all works out well,
DoldGuy
Thank you for letting me know the proper psi setting. My leak down tool is set up for 15 psi, so I'll have to do some tinkering. I agree that I am very fortunate that Danger is so generous with his time and toys. 500s are very foreign to me. I've mostly rode 250s and smaller bikes as an adult. I'll keep you guys posted on the results.
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Cool!
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Vacuumed test
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Vacuumed test
I have a vacuum pump. I'm guessing it works just like the leakdown, but in reverse? So I rig up a vacuum gauge, pull the vacuum and see if holds. It wouldn't take a ton of vacuum to see if the seals were holding, correct?
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I test at 6 psi pressure.... Then vaccumee. I have seen motors that are running odd, pass the pressure test, then fail miserably at vaccumee...... I'd bet $20 your kips shaft leak
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Man I hope it's not the KIPS seal. I saw a post of yours where you said check the KIPS seal, so I ordered a new OEM one when I was putting in the exhaust valves I bought on eBay. Of course knowing my luck I got the wrong one shipped to me. :-D
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Man I hope it's not the KIPS seal. I saw a post of yours where you said check the KIPS seal, so I ordered a new OEM one when I was putting in the exhaust valves I bought on eBay. Of course knowing my luck I got the wrong one shipped to me. :-D
Or, the shaft is worn and won't seal even with a new seal :-o
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Even. With all new parts the shaft seal leaks....
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Man I hope it's not the KIPS seal. I saw a post of yours where you said check the KIPS seal, so I ordered a new OEM one when I was putting in the exhaust valves I bought on eBay. Of course knowing my luck I got the wrong one shipped to me. :-D
The kips seal leaking is not going to cause any issues with the motor running/ only makes it a little harder to do a leak down test
A bit of temporary sealer {gasket maker} around the kipps seal/shaft area should be plenty good enough for the psi/vacuum that will be used in test/
use sealer that goes hard pretty quick and clean area well
Leave the shaft in the IN/closed position when sealing as you be able to pull out shaft a little to remove any excess sealent
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Man I hope it's not the KIPS seal. I saw a post of yours where you said check the KIPS seal, so I ordered a new OEM one when I was putting in the exhaust valves I bought on eBay. Of course knowing my luck I got the wrong one shipped to me. :-D
The kips seal leaking is not going to cause any issues with the motor running/ only makes it a little harder to do a leak down test
A bit of temporary sealer {gasket maker} around the kipps seal/shaft area should be plenty good enough for the psi/vacuum that will be used in test/
use sealer that goes hard pretty quick and clean area well
Leave the shaft in the IN/closed position when sealing as you be able to pull out shaft a little to remove any excess sealent
+1. That's how I do it
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I'll try that. I may not get to the leakdown/vacuum test before I try the carburetor swap with Danger on Sunday. November is normally a slow month at work, but not this year. I've been busier than a one-legged man in a butt kicking contest.
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It will be cold Sunday, might be an issue for testing. Watch the weather, if you want, might postpone
till later in the afternoon.
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Unfortunately my son swims in the afternoon. Swim meets are where your free time goes to die. :-D
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Kid work pays BIG dividends in the long run. Don't ever pass that up.
I'll be here, call and I will open the gate.
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#1 Pulled the carburetor from the parts bike and cleaned it.
#2 Stuck it in Umberto's steel frame k5.
#3 Priceless
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What we learned today.
168 main
58 pilot
N82M needle
Needle clip centered in the 3rd slot
1.5 turns on the air screw
Elevation 1130
Temperature 43 Fahrenheit
This made his bike run well.
I should say well enough to determine his problem
is jetting or carburetor related not a motor problem.
His biked started on the 3 kick, sounded nice. This gives
us a baseline to start at. Need to test and do a plug reading.
What we "really" learned.
A well running SCF KX500 will wheelie on command!
When wheeling keep cargo pants pocket Velcro-ed shut
or you will dump your cell phone on the grass track.
I would like to say we let my old Labrador smell Umberto's
glove and found the phone but she's getting old and was having
fun digging for moles. We found it on the straight-away where
Mr. Wheelie was having fun.
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As well as the bike ran, I almost didn't mind losing my cell phone. :-D Thank you again Danger for letting me borrow your carb. It restored my faith in the bike, and I can't wait to get the new needle and jets to make it run like that all the time!!
(http://www.troll.me/images/10-guy/i-swear-bro-i-just-saw-god-thumb.jpg)
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Oh, and my next purchase after the carb stuff is an over sized front brake rotor. I want to see God, not meet him. :-D
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I was considering building you and sending you a carb. I'm glad Danger was able to help you.
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Thank you Sandblaster, I really appreciate the thought. It was a great feeling to hear that thing sing for the first time. I was smiling from ear to ear all day.
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I'm going to start at the stock settings for my year carb (90 to 93), which are very close to how Danger's carb is set up. I still plan on doing some plug chops just to make sure everything is okay and not too lean. As much work as I have put into this thing, I don't want to screw it up now. It's just now starting to get fun to ride. :-)
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just remember to go small steps at a time....and only change one thing at a time.
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Will do, thank you Foxx. I'll keep you guys posted.
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post a vid of you rippin up some earth too! :wink:
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I'm going to start at the stock settings for my year carb (90 to 93), which are very close to how Danger's carb is set up. I still plan on doing some plug chops just to make sure everything is okay and not too lean. As much work as I have put into this thing, I don't want to screw it up now. It's just now starting to get fun to ride. :-)
Only issue u might have is the carb could be worn
a few links i found a good little Graph on Top Corner on how the needle is tuned
http://www.accelerationkarting.com/images/logos/needlechart.pdf
http://www.duncanracing.com/TechCenter/KeihinCarbJetting.pdf
IT amazes me how small the pilot get on later years with same motor
http://www.revzilla.com/assets/0000/9709/fmf_gold_series_gnarly_pipe_kawasaki_kx50019882004.pdf
The range of jets suprised me as well. The sizes are all over the place as the years change. That's a good point about the carb being worn out. If the different jets don't help, I will probably look into buying a complete carb from Sandblaster.
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I will probably look into buying a complete carb.
consider a Lectron.
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I've read some good things about them on here. Is there a good place to buy them, or do you buy directly from Lectron?
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Packard....
http://packardracing.com/start.php?page=products.php?id=22
Pmcg just bought one from them...for an extremely reasonable price.
scroll down a bit...
http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,11886.225.html
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Dang it, now I want one. :-D
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Ok, umberto, I can't call it the parts bike any more.
Stuck the carburetor back on, cleaned the tank
put everything back together and started on the
4th kick. Tomorrow after a complete fluid change
I'll give it a test run. I'll call this one Danger4u-also.
It's not as smoky as the camera picked up.
My boss is so cool, we have no work but I still get
to use her shop and equipment. I know most of you
don't want to hear this but I'm ready for gasoline to go up.
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That's awesome! That bike is in too good a shape not to run. Watch out Lake Draper, here we come!
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i noticed something weird today, i started the bike (first kick very nice) and it slowly kept reving up as the engine was getting warmer, when the engine was hot it kept going up and down i tried screwing the idle screw out a few turns without success, after a short ride, the bike wouldnt idle at all :? any ideas?
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i noticed something weird today, i started the bike (first kick very nice) and it slowly kept reving up as the engine was getting warmer, when the engine was hot it kept going up and down i tried screwing the idle screw out a few turns without success, after a short ride, the bike wouldnt idle at all :? any ideas?
possible air leak...
possible dirt/debris in the carb/bowl....
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i noticed something weird today, i started the bike (first kick very nice) and it slowly kept reving up as the engine was getting warmer, when the engine was hot it kept going up and down i tried screwing the idle screw out a few turns without success, after a short ride, the bike wouldnt idle at all :? any ideas?
possible air leak...
possible dirt/debris in the carb/bowl....
i recently had the carb out to change the jets, could this be the reason there might be air in the carb and thus why it wont idle since i turned the idle screw to far out?
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very possible...which way did you go with the jetting, richer or leaner?....and which jets did you change?
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very possible...which way did you go with the jetting, richer or leaner?....and which jets did you change?
i switched from 170 and 60 to 165(?) and 58
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check both the clamps on either side of the carb (airbox & intake) to be sure they're snugged up enough.
what was it doing to make you want to lean it out?
did you adjust the air screw after making the changes?
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check both the clamps on either side of the carb (airbox & intake) to be sure they're snugged up enough.
what was it doing to make you want to lean it out?
did you adjust the air screw after making the changes?
it did nothing! i switched to bigger jets for the winter and now smaller for the summer, i did let it warm up a little before i set te air screw then but since it idled to hig and i could not set down the ilde i set it in 1 quarter so that it would idle a little lower, today i turned the air screw out one 1 again and started it to see if it would idle wich he did at a low rpm to! but out of the exhaust comes cartoon styled smoke rings so does the air screw turned out make it richer?
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so does the air screw turned out make it richer?
turn out to lean it...
turn it in to richen it.
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so does the air screw turned out make it richer?
turn out to lean it...
turn it in to richen it.
the more i know
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86 500 , looking for starting point,mostly concerning needle.
This is a Mikuni carb. Was/is this stock for 86 ?
Owner bent original, then lost it :roll:
Parts place he went to said they couldn't get stock needle. So they got him a
6N1
6FJ6
6F15
Which would be closest to stock, and/or best to Start with with? Pro Circuit pipe and aftermarket air filter are only mods.
Also, what fuel and mix ratio is recommended? Getting close to firing this beast up !!
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the stock needle for that bike was 6J6-2...
as for which one is closer to stock, kinda hard to say without having a stock needle to measure, to compare to the three others.
I myself would just pick one (like the 6F15), and put the clip in the middle position, and try it...if you think it could use improvement, then you have the other two you can try as well, just be sure to put the clip in the middle position on the other two as well, so that you keep things consistent....and do some plug chops to see how it's burning.
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Hi guys.
Just bought the bike, cleaned the carb and found this settings:
Needle: N82M middle position
Valve: 7
Main Jet: 190
Pilot jet: 58
Heard that the engine was in a Bike with Side-Car bevor. Could that be the reason for that big main jet? Standart is 168.
Any ideas?
Andreas
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What altitude are you riding at? Is it a stock bore motor?
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Had Aprilia RS125, RS250, Husqvarna 125, 150 and 250, KTM 380, Cagiva Mito...Go-Ped. Never changed jetting because of the altitude to be honest. My place is @431m
Motor is stock. Has a new Piston and new crankshaft bearing.
I will do some test riding after i have changed oil. Then i will test first the 190 and then go slowly down. I'm curious if i will recognize some difference.
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190? Didn't even know they made a jet that big?
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Even when i look at the altitude information...i can not go that low to have such main jet :P
I found 168 in the user manual July 2000 and 175 in the service manual. So it has to be more less in that range.
Now i need good wheter because at the moment we have snow and ice.
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The manuals can be very conservative.
I run 168's in both my relatively stock K5's.
However, that number can go higher depending on what carburetor, pipe, port work, reed, port timing, head cut,and other mods you are running.
The best thing is to watch your plug color...
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Test run today :-D
Pilot jet should be adjusted because no idle possible.
Main jet is way to big but bike already feels great at full throttle!
YEHAAA!
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Impossible to get the bike idle:
Testrun today on asphalt.
Settings:
Needle: N82M middle position
Valve: 7
Airscrew: 1.5
Main Jet: 175
Pilot jet/Slow jet: 58
Fuelmix: 32/1 (Found that in the manual...). Should i use 40/1?
Changed it to 52, 55, 62...idle not possible. Have a 60 but did not try.
Carb is clean. Engine warmed up but did not drive for some minutes.
What im doing wrong?
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Im looking for a starting point, i want to switch to 32:1 becuse i heard this will help with sealing the piston rings better, im hoping this can help with the scratches that are on the front wall of the cylinder, i supsect fuel might leak past the rings, but i doubt it, at least i want to make sure the scratches dont get worse until i can fix it, anyways i want to use 32:1 on 98 octane fuel (norwegian/european rating) im at sea level, temprature is between 10 to 25 celius, my engine is a 1987 mod but the carb is a 1993 mod,
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https://www.revzilla.com/assets/0000/9709/fmf_gold_series_gnarly_pipe_kawasaki_kx50019882004.pdf
1988 jetting would be a good safe starting point {only year with same case volume}/ stock needle 1368n/ 175/ 62
87/ 88 should in theory require richest jetting due to bigger case volume
Say that i am running 160main/50pilot on a 88 but the has been blueprinted /modified inlet/differant header lenght on exhaust/ reduced case volume/
Things can vary so much from motor to motor
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https://www.revzilla.com/assets/0000/9709/fmf_gold_series_gnarly_pipe_kawasaki_kx50019882004.pdf
1988 jetting would be a good safe starting point {only year with same case volume}/ stock needle 1368n/ 175/ 62
87/ 88 should in theory require richest jetting due to bigger case volume
Say that i am running 160main/50pilot on a 88 but the has been blueprinted /modified inlet/differant header lenght on exhaust/ reduced case volume/
Things can vary so much from motor to motor
Mine seems to always be running rich even on stock 1993 jetting, (lots of smoke and oil in the exhaust)
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double check the choke circuit
Could be a carb problem , I have a pwk carb that seem to run crazy rich {like if the choke is on} even though i have triple checked everthing, I ended up swapping it for another one
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double check the choke circuit
Could be a carb problem , I have a pwk carb that seem to run crazy rich {like if the choke is on} even though i have triple checked everthing, I ended up swapping it for another one
i have installed a new choke, maybe i got it wrong somehow, i put in a 165 main and 55 pilot, set the airscrew when the bike was running and ran a little test, the bike was scary powerfull and ran so strong i didnt dare use full throtle, but my dad say that it was smoking alot? Im running at 32:1 but i still dont think it should be smoking tjis much, there is also alot of oil in the exhaust so i think a cylinder hoon and repair is needed, anyways, i think its pinging? Does anyone have a video of a bike pinging so i can compare the sounds?
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If it running strong and smoking alot it could be crank seal{sucking gear oil}
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If it running strong and smoking alot it could be crank seal{sucking gear oil}
i think ill start with thd carb first😂
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What Pre-mix? Is it formulated to run @ 32:1? If not, may explain the spooge. Unless your over 3000ft, I would not run a 165 main. Assume your are running a 39 PWK.
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What Pre-mix? Is it formulated to run @ 32:1? If not, may explain the spooge. Unless your over 3000ft, I would not run a 165 main. Assume your are running a 39 PWK.
a 39 pwk yes, sandblaster pointed out that motul 800 should be 50:1, so im changing that and main
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Glad to see you back alexander-vmann. Keep us posted on your progress.
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Glad to see you back alexander-vmann. Keep us posted on your progress.
today the oil plug fell out. So i got a random plug from a subaru rally car, and ALOT of loctite
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CHECK the needle valve, they wear out, it'll look oblong and you'll be in the 40's on the idle jet and it'll still run rich. It's located in the jet block on pk series, mine a 39mm and everyone will say you can't find them but they are available. Contact http://www.sticsupertorque.com/shop.html; they don't publish them as available but they have them, just ask. Under a 100 bucks and no need to buy another carb.