KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: trouble on December 14, 2009, 01:53:40 PM
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I live in Cincinnati and the elevation around the area is around 1000ft. What I'm wanting to do is run straight race fuel in my k5. Right now it runs great with a 168 main, 58 pilot and 3rd clip on the needle. My previous bike had a pro circuit engine and would only run on race fuel. When I first bought it I ran a tank of pump gas through it and every time I pulled in the clutch it wanted to run away because it was so lean. Can someone give me some advise on the changes I should make to my jetting. I'll be running 110 cam 2 and my bike has a DG pipe, pro circuit silencer, and pro series reeds. I know leaner is meaner so I want to go as lean as I can. I will do a plug check to see how it's running. I would appreciate any help on this matter. I'm sure there are others out there that have done the same thing so help me out guys.
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Hey Trouble... :x
No pun intended! :-D
Welcome to the club,
I searched real quick and there was lot's of hits on race fuel, I didn't know where to start.
There were more discussions about VP race fuel than any of the others I saw off hand.
I'll look and see if the Cam II 110 has a VP equivalent. that might get a few more guys to jump in if they have something to compare it to.
Tuck\o/
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Trouble,
What type of head are you running? From the info gathered here I don't think you will see any benefits running 110 on a stock head. Our members JFAB in Missouri & Larry Wiechman in Illinois can set your head up to utilize the benefits of running the 110 & then you will see the performance gains with out detonation which kills power & a motor. Search the site for head mods to see what fits your need.
DoldGuy
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O.K.
Now we're getting somewhere,
CAM 2 RACING GASOLINE
"Cam 2" is the generic name used for Sunoco Race Fuels. You can expect the same consistent high quality performance from Cam 2 Racing Gasoline that you get from Sunoco Race Fuels because the names are interchangeable. It is the same product, made in the same facility by the same people. We use this name wherever the "Sunoco" brand name cannot be used, such as gasoline outlets which carry a competing brand of street gasoline. Cam 2 is available in 110, 112, and 116 octane leaded, and 100 and 104 unleaded. Please refer to the specs and MSDS for the Sunoco fuels listed above.
So I'm guessing this is the cam II / Sunoco fuel you are refering to.
SUNOCO STANDARD RACING GASOLINE
Sunoco?s all-purpose race fuel with a winning heritage. Whether you road race or bracket race, run the short ovals, or pilot a race boat or motorcycle, Sunoco Standard provides consistently high performance and helps protect engines with static compression ratios up to 14:1 against harmful detonation.
Fuel Property
Typical Specifications
Specific Gravity
.728
Lbs./gal. 6.03
Pump Octane (R+M)/2 110
RON, Research Octane 115
MON, Motor Octane 105
Reid Vapor Pressure 8
Distillation, ?F
Initial Boiling Point 90
10% Evaporation 160
50% Evaporation 220
90% Evaporation 260
Final Boiling Point 360
Leaded Yes - off road use only
Color Purple
Oxygen, Wt.% None
Let's see what VP has as a comparison so the guys can give you an Idea what you'll need to
do to the engine (As DoldGuy stated,) to utilize this fuel.
How about this? Would this be somewhat close to the Sunoco/CamII
you want to use?
SPECIFICATION SHEET FOR C-12
VP C12?
The best all around racing fuel made. Recommended for CRs below 15:1, satisfying the needs of 75% of today's race engines. One of the winningest fuels in racing history, including AMA, NHRA, Modified Tour, GNN, D.I.R.T. and Indy Lights, as well as other local and national championships across the U.S. and around the world. Very popular among Sportsman motorcycle drag racers requiring superior consistency.
(Typical Values) Specific Gravity: .717 @ 60F
Lead: Yes Color: Green Motor Octane: 108 Reid Vapor Pressure: 7.3
Oxidation Stability (min.) 1440+
Distillation: 10% evap @131.0?F
50% evap @194.0?F
90% evap @228.0?F
E.P. @233.3?F
Production: Elmendorf, Texas USA
Availability: Sealed Drums
Rev: 07/00
Tuck\o/
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I have said it before. Maybe about you, if not I should have. Friar, you are a plethora of information, a regular fountain of knowledge.
JFAB
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JFab...
Silly Rabbit...Trix are for Kids!!!
I Know Nothing... You Remeber Shultz from Hogan's Heroes...
De Gold Guy is the "Real Deal"
Now let's Brainstorm on what Trouble needs to spend...umm I mean build his engine to, so he can get his money's worth out of that race fuel... 8-)
Tuck\o/
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Race fuel does not make a bike run fast. Race fuel makes a fast bike run.
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Race fuel does not make a bike run fast. Race fuel makes a fast bike run.
It makes it smell fast. :-D :-P
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It would be closer to vp c12 than 113.
113 is oxy fuel.
C12 has no oxy like the 110
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Thanks!
I'll go back and Fix it.. :-D
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I have said it before. Maybe about you, if not I should have. Friar, you are a plethora of information, a regular fountain of knowledge.
JFAB
As I have called him before "The Typing Encyclopedia".
We are lucky to have so many diverse talents here "Shared"
DoldGuy
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I run straight CAM II, and also run the optional thinner .2 MM head gasket. I jet down in the summer to as lean as a 162 main, and then adjust richer as colder temps move in... I still have a dark chocolate plug read, so I could probably even jet leaner, but I don't flirt with possible meltdown disaster. My 5 runs perfect and never had any symptoms of detonation. The great thing about running uncut race fuel is you get very precise plug reads. Like other commented, race fuel doesn't make hp, race fuel only prevents the possibility of detonation...
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For those that may not know.
Specific gravity (sg.)
and
oxygen content
Are the two major players in jetting change when you change fuels
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There you go Trouble,
Polar B Not only runs the same fuel your looking at, But there are some great things tucked away
in the other posts also.
I'm sure with a tad more info on what kind of riding your doing, and future engine/suspension mods, the guys can help you put together a plan that can significantly save you time and money
in the long run.
Oh yea, speaking of Money... how much (Ballpark) do you have to put in your engine package.
I don't say this to be a kill joy. This has a direct relationship on maintenance
and how much priority is put on HP and or reliability.
Tuck\o/
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high octane fuel is one small portion of the whole package of performance. i'll probably get posted to death for saying this but this is and will remain my opinion of race fuel."unless your engine is producing predetonation you do not NEED race fuel, although the performance may increase slightly". this being said, pump gas is getting to be of such poor quality that it evaporates much more quickly than it did 10 years ago. thats not because it is HOT either it is just terrible formulas currently. for average riding i mix race fuel 60-40 with premium pump gas. for high demand ie..sand riding i use 100% race fuel to wring out every ounce of hp the k5 can give. not very scientific i know, my experiences and humble opinion only.
MADDOGGY
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JFAB, what types of mods can you do to my head so that I can raise my compression ratio? I've got my bike torn down for the winter and can send my head to you. Let me know what you can do so that I can squeeze some more ponies out of it. Right now I mostly woods ride, a hare scramble here and there, and look to get into some hill climbing in 2010.
The k5 is a bad dude, but as most, I'll always take a little more.
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PM sent
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Lean is mean , but it also melts down pistons . A little fat with a good clean burning oil will keep you in the race and not spectating. Moterex racing power 2t the new oil of choice by the major teams still running 2 bangers.CBX
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high octane fuel is one small portion of the whole package of performance
Race fuel does not make a bike run fast. Race fuel makes a fast bike run.
race fuel doesn't make hp, race fuel only prevents the possibility of detonation...
a good clean burning oil will keep you in the race and not spectating.
Trouble, There is alot of experience talking here, I have visited other boards where a new guy could have gotten really ripped apart.
Thanks to all the guys who took the time to post up. It would appear it was worth it!
This may resemble a Motley Crew, and we rarely all agree on every point, however treat these guys with respect and you will reap the benefits of lot's of our mistakes.
There is quite a bit involved with building H.P. You are doing the right thing by asking for
some advice. Read through this right quick
http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,6385.0.html
Tuck\o/
P.S Oh Yea MadDog,?? Well I think running AV gas is running the wrong additive package. :x
In My Humble Opinion ..... Now let's see who gets more umm ...Love... :-D
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i was not speaking of aviation gas here tuck. i'm just speaking of your average 7-11 fuel. bad stuff!!!!!
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Yea,
I got that,
I have been a part of the av gas debate as well, and was thinking I'd get more "hits"
fishing with the av gas statement...
The "average Bear" here seems to be well aware of my sophomoric ploy.... :-(.
and now, back to the regularly scheduled program... :-D
Tuck\o/
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We were at the dyno with my buddies turbo car, we had the boost cranked up as high as we could go with pump gas. We drained out the fuel and pored in some high octain race fuel. When we made the base line pass the car lost 40 horse. Now with the race gas we were able to turn the boost way up and make way more power then with the pump gas. the moral is you will make the most power with fuel whos octain is best matched to the compression of your engine. The reason a stock bike will run cooler with high octain fuel is you don't have the comp to burn it.
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another thought on av gas is that 100 octane low lead or 100LL has more lead than regular gas of the 60's. theres so much lead that it will destroy an engine that is not at high altitude i.e. aircraft. gums em right up. more food for thought as a buddy is in the av gas business
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So there's more to making your bike faster than just running synthetic oil and race fuel?
There is NO BENEFIT to using a higher octane than your engine needs.
I'll try to be brief.....
Octane rating is a measure of the auto ignition resistance of gasoline and other fuels used in spark-ignition internal combustion engines.
Octane is NOT a measure of power but of the fuels? resistance to ignition from heat.
A higher-octane fuel, under identical combustion chamber conditions, will burn slower than a lower number.
As the piston, quickly squeezing the fuel/air mixture into a small space, it can generate enough heat of compression to ignite the fuel well before the spark plug fires, with unpleasant results... Detonation....
If the fuel prematurely ignites while the piston is on its way up, the burning of the fuel, in conjunction with the rising piston, creates even more pressure, resulting in a violent explosion.
This explosion is equivalent to hitting the top of the piston with a very large hammer. If you want to be able to see through the top of your piston, ignore those sounds that are usually called: "pre-ignition", "ping" or "engine knock".
What we really want is a very rapid controlled burn of the fuel, not an explosion.
And we want the burning of the fuel to take place while the piston is in a better position to convert this pressure into productive work.
It might seem odd that fuels with higher octane ratings burn less easily, yet are popularly thought of as more powerful. The misunderstanding is caused by confusing the ability of the fuel to resist compression detonation (pre-ignition = engine knock) as opposed to the ability of the fuel to burn (combustion).
Premium grades of fuel often contain more energy per gal/ litre due to the composition of the fuel as well as increased octane.
This is why when BDI's dyno run with race fuel lost HP on the initial fuel swap.
The engine was tuned to run with the pump gas, we had the boost cranked up as high as we could go with pump gas
the race fuel would burn slower.
Tuning the engine to run with the race fuel produced more power as they could increase cyl. pressure/timing etc. (BMEP) without detonating the fuel prematurely.
The opposite will happen running the race fuel in your bike if it's not tuned/built to run with it. The slower burning fuel will cause your cyl. pressure to actually drop if nothing else has been changed.
Running the race fuel in a stock engine shouldn't do any damage.
I hope this makes some sense.
It's a pretty complicated subject worth spending some time on.
I am with you sandman, an aircraft engine is running in quite a different environment. :wink:
Tuck\o/
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So there's more to making your bike faster than just running synthetic oil and race fuel?
Lots of stickers!
A higher-octane fuel, under identical combustion chamber conditions, will burn slower than a lower number.
Flame front burns at the same speed, it's just a little harder to get it to start burning.
As the piston, quickly squeezing the fuel/air mixture into a small space, it can generate enough heat of compression to ignite the fuel well before the spark plug fires, with unpleasant results... Detonation....
Abnormal combustion before the plug fires is pre-ignigtion.
If the fuel prematurely ignites while the piston is on its way up, the burning of the fuel, in conjunction with the rising piston, creates even more pressure, resulting in a violent explosion.
This explosion is equivalent to hitting the top of the piston with a very large hammer. If you want to be able to see through the top of your piston, ignore those sounds that are usually called: "pre-ignition", "ping" or "engine knock".
A very good description of detonation.
Premium grades of fuel often contain more energy per gal/ litre due to the composition of the fuel as well as increased octane.
BTU/gallon is the same.
Friar, You been hit'n the egg nog already? :-D
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Heat is power, now you just have to control it.
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Flame front burns at the same speed & BTU/gallon is the same
I didn't know that!
That's why I'm here Larry, there is so much to learn...and so little time!
Tuck\o/
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i like vp fuels website some good info on race fuel and its use
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page469659.html
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i like vp fuels website some good info on race fuel and its use
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page469659.html
I've talked with many racers in years past, and most agree VP C12 is about the best suited for 2 stroke race applications. The only reason I run Cam II is that it's available close to me 24/7. I'm told Cam II and VP C12 are almost identical with respect to chemical composition...
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Race fuel does not make a bike run fast. Race fuel makes a fast bike run.
It makes it smell fast. :-D :-P
When I load a KX500 running Cam II, and Klotz R50 into the starting gate, riders around me just shiver from the SMELL the fear when I fire that bit@h up !! :)
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It always cracks me up when we are at the dunes and we are starting a fire. It never fails some one will yell get the 100 oct that will get it going.
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There is nothing wrong CamII , we use to run it until we found out the local dealer was cheating us -his 5 gallon jug only held 4.5 gallon and he told us our jugs were marked wrong- but unless you raise your compression more you would probably be better off running the Cam 2 Blue which was the old Turbo Blue its a little less octane and cheaper, oh yea and it smells great mixed with Benol or R50. CBX
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Has anyone got experience with carless hiperflo 300? It seems to be the cheapest and easiest to get racefuel around here