KX Riders
General => In General... => Topic started by: stewart on October 05, 2009, 08:04:41 AM
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just got the diga-tron data system with tach head temp exhaust sensor and mph it graphs records up to an hour and down loads to pc so its data can be posted or emialed
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Is the thermocouple for head temp a sparkplug washer or coolant probe?
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Data aquisition is the only way to go. It will show you how far off your set-up is. The one i use has over 20 channels on it. The coolant channel will show guy how hot these motors run.
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all of the Digitrons I have looked at us the plug washer for head temp. Saving my pennies to get one with the dual EGT leads so I can also use on my RZ. Glad to see Stewart has one and will learn from him some of the pros & cons such as head temp droping & EG temp going down as a signal it's almost at a melt down stage. Can't wait!! :-D
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skip your hvac project and buy a nice data logger.
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got pictures on now of diga -tron
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Does this set-up have a alarm or light that blinds if it goes over preset limit for the sensor reading. I think it would be hard to read the screen in 5th gear. I wouldn't trust the egt reading melt down protection. Det. sensor would be the better set-up.
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Any other members here using similar setup??? If so, can you post your trial & errors, also what you learned from the info collected.
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Is the thermocouple for head temp a sparkplug washer or coolant probe?
spark plug washer
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I wouldn't trust the egt reading melt down protection. Det. sensor would be the better set-up.
Detonation will cause EGT to drop FAST!
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I lost a motor last year and my egt never increased or decreased. But this motor runs at 15% det. all the time for most power. I just part throttle it too long it went. It depends on your compression and timing what you get for egt reading too. I can't post video on here of my data logger runs, but i did email it to doug.
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all of the Digitrons I have looked at us the plug washer for head temp.
Doug,
When I ordered the system, the folks at Digatron were super helpful and even changed a few things around to help focus the system on land speed instead of kart racing.....ommited the lap counter, etc.
They also offer an thermo sensor that mounts in-line in the coolant system.
Please check your pms Doug....
Does this set-up have a alarm or light that blinds if it goes over preset limit for the sensor reading. I think it would be hard to read the screen in 5th gear. I wouldn't trust the egt reading melt down protection. Det. sensor would be the better set-up.
The eight ( 8 ) lights on the right side of the instrament face are all programable to respond to any preset limits or minimums.
As far as reading the gauge WFO....you know that Stewart builds motors that are smooth enough to ride with one of your grannies tea cups and it's matching saucer on top of the gas tank! :-D
I wouldn't trust the egt reading melt down protection. Det. sensor would be the better set-up.
Detonation will cause EGT to drop FAST!
Do you guys know the response rate for the sensors that you use? Brand?
I am really excited about taking this program to the next level with the Digatron!
Mark
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Mark,
Checked PMS (nothing new). Did you receive mine with the Tracking Info?
I am Very much looking forward to the implement of this Data Collector (In the Hands of someone like Stewart) so I can learn myself (hopefully) on the Proper way of using this device & info. As stated previously, I am saving my $$ to get one & have tried to read up on this things online & all seem to like the Digatrons best.
Correction on my previous post:
EGT going Down With Head temp going up is the indicator that it is near meltdown (heat taken out of exhaust & put back in the cylinder/at least thats what I have read).
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mark whar air temp is it salt flats when you run. you should talk to flyin9 he has a wide band o2.
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mark whar air temp is it salt flats when you run. you should talk to flyin9 he has a wide band o2.
How does the o2 sensor get along with premix?
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mark whar air temp is it salt flats when you run. you should talk to flyin9 he has a wide band o2.
How does the o2 sensor get along with premix?
From memory the air temp ranges between low to mid 60's to tall 90's.....depending on the time of day and which event.
I am definitely interested in what flyin9 has experienced, but I spoke to a couple of different companies before deciding on the Digatron kart stuff..........
Only one seemed to think that the O2 sensors would get along with pre-mix. I had one of their engineers on the phone and he explained that they had got an O2 sensor to work, but it wasn't easy. Some of what he mentioned included using shrouded or unshrouded sensors, false readings due to an 'errant' drip of oil, the un-spent exhaust that is pulsed back across sensor by the chamber, position of the sensor, etc. The guy that designed the instrament and is also an engine tuner had his work cut out for him with the O2.
It didn't take long for me to remember that I am not a software designer or an engine tuner. I am personally more interested in using a 'table saw' to build stuff as opposed to figuring out how to mount a circular saw upside down on the kitchen table...... 8-)
I look at the Digatron as a 'way' to take Stewart to the salt with me....or at the very least send him a graph over the internet!
Mark
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I would upgrage to these egt sensors. These are what we ran on are sled motor 10 years ago. Plus they come with a 3 year warranty.
Hyper Response, Exposed Tip. Accurate enough to see a single misfire at 8,000 RPM's.
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diga-tron plug-head temp installed and rpm is blue wire on plug wire
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diga tron mph sensor on front wheel notice round magnet drilled and pressed in hub
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Can you add another wheel speed sensor (rear wheel) to calculate how much wheelspin at speed on the salt?
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Can you add another wheel speed sensor (rear wheel) to calculate how much wheelspin at speed on the salt?
yes we are just finishing a rear bracket
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here is head temp under plug ..a balmy 65 degrees it checks with in 2 degrees of my infer-red temp gun screen says cht ...cylinder head temp
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Mark & Stewart
You will like the data logger deal. It will make you faster, You should try a dyno section with cht clamped to pipe body. That way Mark can gear for same surface pipe temp on dyno then he out on the flats. Pipe temp will change as much has 500 rpm.
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Stewart,
Had a chance to run the bike yet? I am curious to see what EG temp it's getting up to with it "On The Pipe"
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Doug
On a stock build it should get up there around 1050*-1300*.
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picture at 7000 rpm of head temp and exhaust temp on dyno today working out inductive tach interfence problems
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nice pics stewart.
hey guys sorry i didnt check this thread sooner but this g** d*---- snow in october is making everyone who owns a boat freak out that their stearn drives are going to freeze. but on to motorcycles. mdw471=mark i would assume. what are you looking for and EGT or a wideband AFR O2. big diffrence. EGT = temperature and WB O2 is for air fuel ratio. most of the time the AFR is used in the powersport industry to tune an engine to give the engine what it wants for fuel. its kind of like how do you make a woman happy? give her what she wants! same is true with an engine. most people will ask a question like, What jets do i need at 65*F at 1265' above sea level to tune my engine? and you will get a resposne like pilot 55, 170 main 2nd clip on the needle... that is a fine and dandy for trail riding, im not trying to rip on anyone about questions like that so please dont rip on me, when you are looking for every last inch-lbs of torque and HP out of your machine you need to go to the n'degree of detail. not all engines are the same so to the jetting Question you need to look at AFR to see what your engine wants. most tuning is done in a controled setting IE. DYNO! run your tests use your ARF to pick and chose jets, needles, slides, ect to make your engine happy, you will see a nice smooth AFR curve and that will tell you what it wants. always get close on the dyno fist then test in real world conditions. the WBO2 system that i have records real time data and allows you to plug in to your laptop to retrive the data. check out www.daytona-sensors.com and check out the wegoIII WBO2. thats what i run. i have a LCD readout in the cockpit of my kart that i can glance at just to make sure im in check, then i plug in to my laptop and review my realtime data. for racing, i think that this is a must. I will be more than happy to talk to anyone about it. This is what i love to do so please feel free to contact me. if i made a mistake somewhere someone please correct me, i dont want to give false info to anyone! BTW after all of my STEWART mods i made 54 HP on the dyno, , 12% came from tuning with ARF. stewart thanks again for working on my engine it still runs like a top. i will never have anyone other than him modify another KX 500 of mine! Jared
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sorry i forgot to mention, the O2 sensors last 2-10 hours depending on the location. i would sugest welding 2 bungs in to your pipe then while onthe dyno test both, (they make plugs for a bung that is not used, so dont worry about a hole in your pipe) one close to the exhaust port of the engine, for use while on the track, the other one further up the pipe =midpipe or so. test them both on the dyno to check accuracy, use the mid pipe one for on the dyno, the O2 will last longer. the O2's are between 100-150$ each but with a little thinking and the help of an older VW rabbit O2 i belive it is your should be able to make your own for about 50$
jared
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whay kind of tourqe numbers and at what rpm did you see in your testing jared ..i have found that since dynos maesure tourqe and calculate horse power a few things became big factors number one the checking of the calibratyion of our tourqe arm ,,it sets at 50 pounds in our case then zeros ..and found that any interferance in rpm reading from calibration or inductive issues caused varying hp totals as well as our pulse settings.....thanks for your input as i hope your racing is going good..are you getting rear wheel numbers or out put shaft
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I ran a load test on my kart at 12%, it was run in 4th gear, i had to keep the engine at close to 6000rpm's to start the runs because anything below that on the dyno my kart would shake so viloently that it just about threw me out of the seat. so the curves didnt cross at 5252 like all graphs do, do to the fact we started at 6000r's but the torque # was falling from about 58to about 48 from 6000-9000, we found with a stock silencer it alowed the torque curve to pull sery smooth from 6500-8500 compared to a modified silencer. we used both, an inductive tach and then we tried an optical tack on the tire with all of the calculations put in to the computer both were within .1'ths of eachother. if your using an inductive make sure it is only touching the plug wire, if it bounces off the engine or frame rail. interference can happen very easy. these numbers are all SAE Trq and SAE RWHP, it was done on a superflow dyno.
jared
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i wonder why there can be a differance in the hp reading if dyno is rpm calibrated off the drum spinning rpm....verses rpm from inductive pick up ,, even when we have 3 devices testing the inductive reading that say its acurate ,, i have seen this and some other factors like start speed of test etc vary rear wheel hp numbers..i relize that its possiable to make much higher flash numbers but as has been written before in many 2 stroke books sustanible hp is not always as high
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are you taking into effect, outside air temp, (outside the building), inside airtemp(inside), relative humidity, wet bulb temp and dry bulb temp, elevation, engine operating temperature, coolant IE is it water all the time 50/50 engine ice ect, tire temp, tire air pressure. all of these will make a diffrence. I can tell you first hand that just temperature alone will change your readings! my school has a dyno trailer and we were outside doing runs for high school kids. in 3 hours the temperature rose from 68* to 81* and we gained 2.5 HP. we did nothing to alter the bike, it was always brought up to the same operating temp and tire pressure was the the same. when doing testing you never want variables. try to keep everything as close to the same as you can.
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yes we adjust for the temp humidty altutuide etc very often
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that is good to hear! does your machine have the capibilities for an optical tach? that might help you out?
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we can read dyno rpm from inductive at the plug wire ...or from drum calibration, i have seen that since gear ratio is tourque multipucation , the gear the bike is tested in would make a different drive ratio and if the dyno is only factoring inductive rpm ..then first or 5th gear bieng different could effect readings i have seen this change
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i wonder why there can be a differance in the hp reading if dyno is rpm calibrated off the drum spinning rpm....verses rpm from inductive pick up ,, even when we have 3 devices testing the inductive reading that say its acurate
I'll bet the dyno you're using doesn't measure RPM directly, it's calculated from drum RPM, wheel radius and gear reduction ratios. The big variable is the wheel radius. The tire deforms as a result of loading and power transmission. Chains, gears and driveshafts provide reliable data, rubber doughnuts do not.
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larry it measures rpm off the motor ignition pulse , or it can be set at a given dyno wheel rpm in a given gear on the bike,,
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Which method are you using?
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larry, good call, it is important that the correct gear reduction, final drive, and tire calculation is correct! any one of those factors will change numbers greatly! 25%+ i have done it! its wrong but it can be done! so and so's HP juice! can add 2HP easy, ill do it for you on the computer! that S_9_= will wreck your engine, but it added 2 HP hell ill try it! I will not lie about my #'s. there are a few ppl that will lisiten to what im saying so anyone who doesnt belive me thats fine!
jared
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we have been using the programed info from dyno jet they go on line and take over your computer controls we run the factory 14 47 gear sprockets and have been using 3 third gear since its the closest trans gear to 1 to1 dyno jet has the kx 500 in its programing when you set up the tests ,,,,larry i have used both methods of testing ,,i think a dyno is a way to compare one pull to the next pull and find a change either up or down ...in dynoing car racing engines i have seen the battles of dyno numbers rage for years one guy dyno s his one place then another place has a higher or lower number ,,we have been very attament about finding the best ways to measure incress or decress in power
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Which method are you using?
we have used both methods a number of times larry ..as i am always looking at all options in both testing and real world useful power and i think of a dyno as a tool like a dial indcator or 9.16s wrench,,
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i wanted to say the numbers i see varying between ,,,, rear wheel drum rpm horsepower,, and inductive at the plug rpm readings.. do vary but the amount is small////compared to the change in drive train loss percntage numbers,, that can have an effect on outcome reading ,
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i think a dyno is a way to compare one pull to the next pull and find a change either up or down ...in dynoing car racing engines i have seen the battles of dyno numbers rage for years one guy dyno s his one place then another place has a higher or lower number ,,we have been very attament about finding the best ways to measure incress or decress in power
I hear ya there! Takes a sharp dyno operator to get good repeatable data using a strict A to B to A test method. Comparing numbers with some other dyno means nothing.
Larry
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notice on this sheet from some of todays dyno testing that hp and torque readings will always be the same number at 5252 rpm ,,since that is the constant for the math to do the horsepower calculation which is...tourqe times rpm divided by 5252 equals the hp number.....as you go below 5252 rpm tourqe numbers are up and hp is less ..as rpm is above 5252 hp is up and tourqe heads down,,,you might have to zoom in on this picture as my camera is not doing well i think i need to find some one with a camera dyno.. i took 10 shots to get a readable 1..i have a scanner now but have to get the right hook up cable then hope to have more pictures..also note this was with standard correction method as is shown on top left of sheet
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Stewart,
Is that a real 20 HP jump in 400 RPM? Or is it a product of the crossover @ 5252?
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i have seen the constant jump in hp in the 4800 to 5400 rpm range ..............if you want my opionon i think its the kips opening piont that really kicks in the hp
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I am really excited about what the Digatron offers us, however, all this talk about dynos reminds me of standing in line at Bonneville.
On the first day, up and down the tech line there was a lot of bragging about amazing dyno pulls. And of course, all these guys already knew how fast they were going to go.
Three days later, I was in the impound line waiting for the bike to be measured for a record and all the fast old-timers were talking about how there is really only one true way to measure performance... running on the Great White Dyno.
8-)
Mark
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i know when we test the bike we use the same dyno settings every time and only change the weather settings for that time of dyno . a dyno is for tuning and seeing what gains or losses you make with every change . i remember getting a reed block . we thought it was going to help because it looked so good . great craftmanship but when the wheel of doom was spun it showed us that it cost us a 20 HP loss. ive raced guys that say their bike makes this hp and than out run them knowing that my bike makes less hp than what they claim for theirs . so the dyno is a tool for tuning . you know what it runs by the seat of the pants and when the light turns green the BS stops . flying nine wacthed their motor on the dyno and then saw me ride 4th and 5th gear wheelies down the street . i am sure they will tell you it hauls and that it will run ahead of all most everything they race . stewart and me enjoy what we do and only want the best we can get out of the k5 . bench racing is great but it sure is nice to have a record or two or three or four to back it up . :lol: :lol: :lol: we will be doing more testing as the weather and time permits us .
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Stewart,
Is that a real 20 HP jump in 400 RPM? Or is it a product of the crossover @ 5252?
i have seen the constant jump in hp in the 4800 to 5400 rpm range ..............if you want my opionon i think its the kips opening piont that really kicks in the hp
Does that result in a strong mid range that could be smoothed out for ridability? Isn't that also a goal? To get More Power and/or turning more Rpm's, but keeping a smooth power delivery?
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we ride an area with woods and rocky dirt hills . i can climb some steep hills in second with the motor just above idle and it pulls hard with no hint of bog. it will pull the front up in 4th gear with my 300 lb butt on it at 40 mph easy . or ask stewart how it climbs step loose terrain with him on it. a lot easyer to ride with the extra power be cause the motor runs smother and you dont have to whip it wide open to rev the motor to its sweet spot because with the extras it just pulls like a frieght train on nos when we do all the lil tweaks . i remember the first time stewart and me went and hammered the kx 500's . we came back to the shop and said %^!& thats fast . now when we get back from a ride we just look at each :evil:other and ask whats next . need more power.
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I definately am not turning my nose up to your R&D. I can only guess how many times you have taken test rides on bikes with twice the power, that I have been on. I see the many insightful posts plus all of the accomplishments that you guys have collectively.
My concern, from my standpoint only probably, is that the 500 can be ported and modded to the point of being hard to ride at Hillclimb or similar style racing, like drag racing. Just trying to discover if those amazing torque and power mods that work so well for top-end is a rideable combo for bottom and mid range. Remember when I asked you what would happen if you pinned the throttle and dumped the clutch in second gear? You recommended a good life insurance plan. I know Stewart builds for top-end, massive hp and reliability. I give Stewart more credit for keeping the reliability as a priority, than if it was only about print-outs on the Dyno. He also mentioned to me that there is an emphasis on keeping them with ridable power. My imagination says that would be a linear power curve, without a huge dip or hump, but I am truely clueless, so I am asking you, the experts, the wise of the k5's.
Has there been anything you could tell me about mods that worked for power, but didn't work for real world rideability, or how the focus of your work prioritizes power, torque, reliability, rideability.
My best friend had a Pro Circuit highly modified 500 and ended up wadding-up everyone who rode it. It would not ever clean out in neutral, then when the rider dumped the clutch it would usually crash them before going 50 feet, as it came to life and took off like a rocket. It never bogged, but was deceptive to the point that noone was ever ready for it to launch that hard. The bike got passed around, until eventually noone wanted it, even though most of the motor had been chrome plated. That is just one story that I have about kx500's being hard to ride after modifications.
I know that the absolute difference in what you guys do and what all other engine builders do, is that those guys work on every make and model of motorcycle, so they would be forced to generalize in the mods, where yours have been specific to this bike only. That has to wind up with the best results. I just wonder if the same things work for top speed on the Salt Flats or paved dragstrip, as for a 200 foot drag race or hillclimb.
Sorry for hijacking the thread, Hopefully I'm not straying to far from the topic. Thanks for the info....
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i am very interested in driveabilty and relbilty ....first.... now that being said i have always seen on any engine build v8 or dirt bike people want top fuel power wether the need it or not ..then they all want toyota reliabilty......then they want it to have electric motor smooth ness.............all at once ,,,,,,,, i think i am getting very good driveabilty and reliabilty out of the k5 motor but the k5 motor is a great motor from stock they are very well thought out and reliable and all we as a group our doing is enhanceing these fetures
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Ever notice how the new owners want to hop that sucker up to the max, and the engine builder wants you to build a correctly assembled stocker with only conservative improvements?
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hillclimb#42 . the bikes we build work in all areas . i can lug it in 4th and never feel i have to down shift unless you are going below 40 mph up a very very steep hill with in reasons. watch the vids on youtube under my user name k5abuser . some good vids of us just luging the bike up some hills that are loose terrain and over 1100 ft to the top of the hill . listen to the motor work and remember i am about 300 lbs. the vids are in HD too .
the engines do pull on the top but gain on the bottom too . we have yet to feel like the k5 motor can not preform on the bottom like it should .stewart launches in 2nd gear with no problem . well one need more traction .
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Great responses. Very good points that you make, Stewart. Guys like me want to double their power without losing anything. Cake and eat it too. Can you adjust mods to suit application or do you feel that your best mods work for everyone?
I have watched the vids k5abuser. I like the chat pile vids. Video just doesn't do the bike justice, IMO. Do you have new ones? I am 100% sure that you are getting awesome results, but I was kinda poking around with stuff I know very little about theoretically, and even less in real world. My 500 has lugging power, too. I'm not lacking anything there really. My focus would be how I could run the bike wide open in 2nd gear. Maybe turning more r's than stocker would be good. Bottom and mid that I brought up is my own thoughts that I need a strong launch and always recover from breakers and even a mistake. More power in that range would allow for taller gearing, too.
The wheel never quits spinning during a winning hillclimb. I know that seems like that can't be the fastest way, but it is. Think of the the spinning of the tire acting like a clutch in a way. Lots of spin off the log, then as the bike gets going, acceleration can happen with no wheelie. No wheel spin on a hill means you have to get out of it and set the wheel back down. Its mind over matter to hold it pinned and get it off the log.
Thats kinda what I meant too, Larry. Other engine builders and even suspension mods seem to be very directed to what the bike will be used for. I have been getting advice to do the "correctly assembled stocker", (mainly because I trail ride it too) but racing guys that have done everything that they can to theirs. Having that internal battle about what I would need to hang with the competition (if anything). I have kinda been doing bolt-on mods a step at a time, gradually getting confidence built-up to really hammer it, but still wound up 2nd. 3rd year in a row. :x
I don't mind telling you guys almost doubling my current compression and power has me confused. For one, how it is possible, and two how anyone could ride it without being tossed off the back. You guys are awesome.
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A engine builder that builds a motor off the data from a data logger will make the bike alot faster then what the rider think he needs. This is how i build motors.
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Just trying to discover if those amazing torque and power mods that work so well for top-end is a rideable combo for bottom and mid range. I know Stewart builds for top-end, massive hp and reliability. I give Stewart more credit for keeping the reliability as a priority, than if it was only about print-outs on the Dyno. He also mentioned to me that there is an emphasis on keeping them with ridable power.
Hillclimb#42 - I chose the KX5 motor for land speed racing because...
1. 500cc is a good class
2. a single cylinder needs only 1 of everything
3. the KX5 motor is tiny
Most all of the 2s race engines used on the salt are high rpm bikes, ie a 50cc on NOS that spins to 13,500 something. Road racing enignes have port time durations that differ from MX bikes. By design, the KX5 makes torque horsepower, not high spinning/RPM power.
To be honest, I wish there was more top-end potential in the KX5 motor for LSR, but it is still a MX motor....port timing, KIPS valve, big round chamber, etc.
Stewart has figured out how to build Kawasaki's design into a better 'hunting dog' without loosing any of the original's great traits. When we run down the track, it sounds more like a big ole tractor than a hyped-up piece of run away lawn maintance equipment!
Mark
p.s. The bike is still really quick and more than fast enough to set three more ECTA records this past weekend....'tractoring' right into the headwind!