KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: 93cbra on September 15, 2009, 01:19:29 PM
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Hi guys, new to the forum and just looking for some feedback. I'll get right to it. On the road my (new to me as of today) 500 barely lifts the front wheel when rolling the throttle in 3rd gear. Seems a bit faster then my past kx 250 and yz450 but not by much. Is this normal?
I have a new plug and new gas. The sprockets are 47 and 14 (this is stock correct?)
I'm running a NGK B8ES plug
Not sure what the jets are (will clean them tomorrow and find out what they are (any recommendations on sizes? I live in NH close to sea level. Yes I realize there's a jet chart and will check it out).
Bike starts and runs great but seems to hesitate just a bit when hitting the throttle.
I'm runnning my fuel at 32:1
Just thinking it should have more power. The bike was maintained very well and not ridden much (not a scratch on the frame or plastic). The plug I took out was a bit blackish brown.
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/kx500032.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/kx500033.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/kx500035.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/kx500037.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/kx500039.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/kx500040.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/kx500041.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/kx500042.jpg)
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i would check to see if the powervalves are working.
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Dam I meant to ask that, is there an easy way to tell if it's working (take the plate off and give it throttle and see if it moves??)
Also, anyone know what I should expect for a compression test?
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105-164psi is what the factory manual said.
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Thanks a lot! I'll check it tomorrow.
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depends on where your powervalves are at it will change your readings.
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yours isnt running right at all.. my rips right up in 4 and 5th.
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Pull the plug out of the end of the silencer.
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Pull the plug out of the end of the silencer.
lol
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Pull the plug out of the end of the silencer.
lol
Don't laugh, it's probably true, I did it once, and now I never use those stupid friggin' butt plugs.....
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Yeah I did it before also :)
I checked out my bike. The jets were way of (52, 158, position 2). The compression was 155. I rejetted it and it feels a little better. I guess I was just expecting more. I did all my testing on a road, I'm sure once I get it on the trails it will be a handful LOL
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I did the same thing on the 450 it shot out like a cannon...going to use is when the neighbor kids have there potato gun fights... that turbine core silence he has cost me an overall ( in my class ) at the adelonto gran prix years ago...i crashed hard and the silencer the way it points down was clogged full of dirt, i noticed it while laying down watching everyone pass me 3 times. As far as not lifting the front wheel on a 3rd gear roll on,,,,theres a big problem unless he is lugging it just past the point of stalling. There are many times I wish it didnt come up so easy. Throttle control big time is needed. Sounds like jetting is way off or the kips is closed shut. i think even lugging it mine will come up.
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On the road my 500 will pull the wheel up in fourth with just the flick of the wrist, also in fifth but not as quickly.
There must be something not set up right or mismatched modifications. There are many many riders who can outride me, but I have not found a dirt bike who can pass the 500 on a road. Usually when the other bikes run out of power on a road, that is when I wheelie past just to show off.
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sounds exactly like my bike!!! GOT TO LOVE THAT POWER
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what oil are you using at 32:1? I think most guys here run like 40:1 maybe higher.
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yeah 32:1 I'll try higher
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Maybe it has a heavy fly wheel on it? The bike runs perfect, just doesn't seem to have the explosive power in 3rd and 4th like you guys describe. It will definitely wheelie up in 3rd and 4th if I want it too (goose the throttle) but I can also sit forward and roll the throttle till wide open and still keep the front down.
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yeah 32:1 I'll try higher
ACK !!!! you are drowning that engine with oil. I prefer 42:1, and I use Klotz R50 full synthetic. You also may be experiencing just a "loaded" engine all saturated with excessive oil and fuel in the crankcases. Try to find a nice LONG dirt road, and hold that bastage WFO, and listen and feel.... if you hear the rpm's lag, then slowly start to "clean out" now you are making peak power!
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I tried that last weekend, upped the ratio and held it wide open for some good stints. Still doesn't have the power. The bike runs perfect, compression seems fine (after about 5 kicks I get 155lbs). I'm thinking that my power valve isn't working. I pulled the cover and it does move but maybe the linkage up in the port is broken (the lever moves a lot earlier than I would think, if I just give it a few RPMs of throttle the power valve lever moves). I'm going to take the exhaust off this week and see if the power valve is actually opening.
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Is the air filter over oiled?
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I don't think so. When I bought the bike I ran the it(the filter was dirty) and then cleaned and oiled the filter ( not too much) and it ran the same.
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Have you treid to beat a 450 on it ???
You should beat a 450 every race fairly easily, & smoke it on top.
If you cannot,,,,,then something is amiss.
Like i said above....you should trump a 450 fairly easily....& that is about it in stock form.
Just abit more noticable power then a 450...............maybe 20% seat of the pants feel.
That is a good running stock K-5.
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I see lots of "bling" additions to your 500, this tells me the previous owner has some mechanical abilities. Did the P/O replace the top end? It a very distinct possibility the exhaust valve timing can be a tooth off. This will make the midrange power feel very flat...
I think after checking all the basics, the next step is tearing down the top end for a detailed inspection. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE OEM KAWASAKI SERVICE MANUAL FOR ASSEMBLY !!!!!
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Thanks, if the power valve gear is a tooth off there's no real way for me to tell is there (I don't think the top end has ever been apart)? The gear doesn't come marked from the factory does it? Or is there a procedure to time it? I really think it's the power valve, bike runs great and has plenty of low end, just lacks top end. Is 155lbs after 5 or 6 kicks normal? Is it normal for the power valve arm to move after about just 500 rpms of throttle from idle?
I went from a 450 (geared real low) to this 500 and the 450 felt faster.
Thanks for the help guys.
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If you have been running 32:1, move to at least 40:1 and REPACK your silencer. Prolly full of oil and carbon.
Remove and clean the carb. Really CLEAN it well. Correct the jetting using the jetting chart here.
While the carb's off, put some new reeds on. If you have the coin, get some V-Force IIs. Biggest single improvement for me.
Count your sprocket teeth front and rear. Whaddya got there? Makes a lot of difference in the feel of power vs speed.
There is a lot of good step-by-step on proper assembly of the KIPS both here and in the factory manual. It's really not that difficult.
Post pictures of your work as you go.
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Thanks
I've got the stock gearing and have also taken the carb apart and cleaned the heck out of it. Also replaced the jets per the chart (the ones it came with were WAY out).
It has V-Force reads in it already. I'll check the silencer to see if it's clogged, maybe since the guys was running the wrong jets it clogged the silencer.
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Yeah I did it before also :)
I checked out my bike. The jets were way of (52, 158, position 2).
the mainjet is way to small at sealevel
Thanks
I've got the stock gearing and have also taken the carb apart and cleaned the heck out of it. Also replaced the jets per the chart (the ones it came with were WAY out).
It has V-Force reads in it already. I'll check the silencer to see if it's clogged, maybe since the guys was running the wrong jets it clogged the silencer.
this ,not knowing which altitude you,re at ,is a contradiction in terminus, they ran way to small jets ,so no clogging of your silencer here,it s you running 32:1 that clogs it up ,fosho,go to 40:1 right away
:-)
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How do the reeds look? Worn? Fresh? Do they seal?
By stock gearing, you mean 14/47, right?
Know any other KX500's you could try for a comparison? Maybe plan a ride and invite some of the other inmates here and try a bike swap for a test ride. Where are you located?
Good luck...
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The jets were way off (52, 158, position 2).
When I got it I rejetted it to 172/58 and position 3. I only ran about a 1/4 of a tank of 32:1 then changed right away with recommendation from the forum.
not knowing which altitude you,re at ,is a contradiction in terminus, they ran way to small jets ,so no clogging of your silencer here,it s you running 32:1 that clogs it up ,fosho,go to 40:1 right away
I live in NH at sea level.
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yes thats a perfect jetting,i have this jetting too ,on my mx k5
and you,re at 40:1 so also perfect
did you check fuelflow and floatheight also ?
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The jets were way off (52, 158, position 2).
When I got it I rejetted it to 172/58 and position 3. I only ran about a 1/4 of a tank of 32:1 then changed right away with recommendation from the forum.
not knowing which altitude you,re at ,is a contradiction in terminus, they ran way to small jets ,so no clogging of your silencer here,it s you running 32:1 that clogs it up ,fosho,go to 40:1 right away
I live in NH at sea level.
Well, if you live in NH this is your lucky day, I live over by the seacoast, in Newton, NH, and I would be glad to have a look at your bike to see if we can get it straightened out, i'll let you take mine for a ride to feel what a clean, crisp KX500 should feel like (bring some extra underwear)
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No I didn't check those, any easy instructions for that or should I just search?
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flow is easy ,turn petcock on when the line,s off,it must flow unobstructed with fuelcap in place
floatheight is around 20 mm ,guessing ,my manual is in the shop
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Well, if you live in NH this is your lucky day, I live over by the seacoast, in Newton, NH, and I would be glad to have a look at your bike to see if we can get it straightened out, i'll let you take mine for a ride to feel what a clean, crisp KX500 should feel like (bring some extra underwear)
WOW.
Now there you go.
Rich'll give you the opportunity to see what CAN be done.
Sweet deal.
"The power of the forum."
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Well, if you live in NH this is your lucky day, I live over by the seacoast, in Newton, NH, and I would be glad to have a look at your bike to see if we can get it straightened out, i'll let you take mine for a ride to feel what a clean, crisp KX500 should feel like (bring some extra underwear)
WOW.
Now there you go.
Rich'll give you the opportunity to see what CAN be done.
Sweet deal.
"The power of the forum."
LOL
PM sent!!
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flow is easy ,turn petcock on when the line,s off,it must flow unobstructed with fuelcap in place
floatheight is around 20 mm ,guessing ,my manual is in the shop
Thanks man, it does flow unobstructed but the petcock is extremely hard to turn (I've read this is common). I'll try to check the float tomorrow.
Thanks again!
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Guys, here's a video of my exhaust valve and cylinder. Anything stand out as looking wrong?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFfKE4sWbXs
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Super nice bike. I think Stewart's favorite year. Looks like the powervalve is good, to me. Mine opens quickly also. I think you need a piston and rings by the looks of the carbon on the side of the piston. There was a real good thread on piston reading on here. It would be a good idea to search for that. A "Dark brown crown" is what you want. Dark brown above the rings, that is. When it starts creeping past the rings, you need rings. Once it covers the whole skirt, chances are it needs a piston too. Beyond that I'd recommend new tires and taller gearing. It will rip.
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Thanks!
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93cbra is tentativel bringing his bike down to my shop next weekend. After getting some history feedback on his KX500, All's I can do is just go over usuall everything, I want to set his jetting (which seems WAY lean), to my proven jet specs, then do a compression check of both his and mine, and then probably it's off with the top end.....
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Polar B,
Good on Ya' for hooking our brother up!
Thanks to all you guys who take time out of your day to post up and help out!
This may not be the largest forum on the web, but it sure has alot of Heart...
Tuck\o/
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Heck, I just think it's way cool I found another KX500 owner nearby. 500cc bikes are an extremly rare breed here in NH.
(wait till I talk 93cbra into studding his tires, and heading out on the ice with me this winter.... :) )
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Heck, I just think it's way cool I found another KX500 owner nearby. 500cc bikes are an extremly rare breed here in NH.
(wait till I talk 93cbra into studding his tires, and heading out on the ice with me this winter.... :) )
That is cool. I havnt found any 500s yet. I only know of two people with 450f's.
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Heck, I just think it's way cool I found another KX500 owner nearby. 500cc bikes are an extremly rare breed here in NH.
(wait till I talk 93cbra into studding his tires, and heading out on the ice with me this winter.... :) )
Studs... ice... sounds like it's going to be a fun winter!!
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hurry up lads! need to know the outcome....sounds exactly the same as whats wrong with mine. doubt i am goign to have to give in break into the motor(crank seals?)
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after we set the jetting, and inspect the top end and it proves to be good, the only other remote possibility I can think of for sub par acceleration is a bad clutch... but that's stretching it.... we see. I will certainly post pics and details when/if we find the suspect...
Rich
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hopefully its something simple. Im having problems with my 91 also.
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Another kind of random thing that can cause problems is excess carbon build up in the expansion chamber.
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I have put a new top end on, Cleaned and re-jetted carburetor to recommended jetting for my area, all new gaskets and a few seals, new power core silencer and pro circuit platinum pipe and it still doesn't run right. I ordered V-Force reeds and got a reed spacer from jfab so im hoping my problem is in the reeds as they don't have much "tension". I also did a test by filling the valve with water and holding it shut... then releasing and counting how long it takes to empty the water. Most say 6-10 seconds is good for stock reeds and mine take under 2 seconds!
Not stealing a thread just tossing out my situation if it helps the original poster.
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Well Rich looked in the exhaust port and found the problem. The piston has a chunk missing from it. I'll try to tear it down today and take some pictures.
Thanks for your help Rich!
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Well, Jeff and I met today, and we talked and share LOT in common, great guy.
Now for the disturbing news, Jeff's 500 definately had less compression than mine. His compression also took more kicks to reach a max of about 150 psi, where as my 500 reached a max of 175. First, I grabbed a flashlight, and closely observed the powervalves, and everything looks good, next Jeff is slowly kicking the bike over as I watch the piston, and te piston and rings look worn, then as I get my head even closer to the exhaust port, I focus on the piston crown, and the bad news is spotted.... The piston has a good sized chunk broken off the crown directly above the top compression ring... dammit, NOT what I wanted to see ! ... I'm sure he will chime in with his comments... I just hope there is no cylinder damage, and the head is ok.
In my experiences with a piston crown failure, it usually bangs up the head, and the cyl as well, lets keep our fingers crossed until he get the cylinder off.
Jeff post up pics of the piston, maybe some of the more experienced KX engine gurus can explain what might have happened to cause the psiton to break like it did...
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Ok well here goes. I disassembled it and found some issues.
First, can you guys look at this video and please tell me my bottom end bearings are not bad?? :cry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_h-AEUlXo
Next, here are some pics of my piston and cylinder. Unfortunitly there a few spots where the finish has come off, I circled those areas in red. Also it looks like I have a crack in my exhaust port. What do you guys think, can it be fixed? Is this abnormal? There were no scratches in the walls of the cylinder anywhere, just finish rubbed off.
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor001.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor002.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor003.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor005.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor008.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor006.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor009.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor010.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor015.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor023.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor025.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor029.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor031.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor032.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor033.jpg)
(http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd335/jwolfendale/KX500motor035.jpg)
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Jeff, i'ts hard to tell from pics, but It looks like a typical dirt ingested siezure. Dirt siezures usually result in piston damage (but not limited to) near the intake sides. Cold siezures usually scuff the 4 corners of the piston skirts (which doesn't seem to be the case here). Lean burn, or lack of lubrication siezures usually stem from the exhaust port first, but can also go all the way around the piston. The piston looks like it siezed, and peeled off the Nikasil coating up near the top of the cylinder. This might be how the top piston crown failed. By the looks of the black carbon below where the piston failed, your 500 has been driven for a while with the blown piston. Obviously from a idiot previous owner who was clueless...
Your crank rod play is normal. There will be some side to side play in the rod. What you don't want is ANY verticle play within the crank to rod journal fit. Any other member comments?
I know of a REALLY seasoned Kawasaki tech/ veteran dirt racer buddy of mine down in Salisbury, MA. If you want a really good opinion of what to do about your cylinder...
Rich
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Looks like a common problem with a cast piston. Looks like alittle lean on oil ratio with baked oil under crown of dome. Maybe alittle det. could cause that ring glan breakages.
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Thanks guys, glad to here the bottom is normal. Is this cylinder fixable? If so do I need to send it out to get welded or sleeved. Does that crack look like a show stopper?
Jeff
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93CBRA,
The cylinder can be stripped, the bridge welded, bored (stock size 86) & then plated. The top of the cylinder looks to have had coolant leaking into the bore from the head (usually see some type of errosion). From that piston you are very lucky to not have more damage. While the motor is at this stage I would recommend going thru the bottom end and install new crank bearings and seals and measure the play in the crank along with it's alignment. As stated above the crank should have NO play up & down but a small amount side to side but you can have too much. Also sure once you are finished with the build you will be VERY happy with it's new found performance.
I hope our members realize how bad ones motor can be even as new & clean as your 2003.
Keep us posted on your progress! :-D
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93CBRA,
The cylinder can be stripped, the bridge welded, bored (stock size 86) & then plated. The top of the cylinder looks to have had coolant leaking into the bore from the head (usually see some type of errosion). From that piston you are very lucky to not have more damage. While the motor is at this stage I would recommend going thru the bottom end and install new crank bearings and seals and measure the play in the crank along with it's alignment. As stated above the crank should have NO play up & down but a small amount side to side but you can have too much. Also sure once you are finished with the build you will be VERY happy with it's new found performance.
I hope our members realize how bad ones motor can be even as new & clean as your 2003.
Keep us posted on your progress! :-D
Thanks man I appreciate it! I'll send the jug out to be fixed.
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Rich, you think I should send it out to be fixed or buy a new one?
Here's one on ebay for $500
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-OEM-2004-KAWASAKI-KX-500-CYLINDER-11005-1564-KX500_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem2302cdbca3QQitemZ150370892963QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
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It should only cost around $200.00 to replate that cylinder.
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It should only cost around $200.00 to replate that cylinder.
It's going to cost more the $200 to fix that cylinder, especially if it needs weld repair.
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Rich, you think I should send it out to be fixed or buy a new one?
Here's one on ebay for $500
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-OEM-2004-KAWASAKI-KX-500-CYLINDER-11005-1564-KX500_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem2302cdbca3QQitemZ150370892963QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Jeff, it's a tough call.... I honestly think to repair your cylinder, including some weld repair, i'm going to throw out an educated guess, that the cost is going to be upwards of $300+, and shipping, and you will be down for a month . Its odd that piston broke the way it did, and there is not a lot more damage. It's almost always the skirt that granades.
Maybe ship the cyl to US Chrome, for just an estimate, then make your decision.
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If you buy a new cylinder I'll buy your old one if you what to sell it.
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Ok thanks man, I'll keep that in mind.
Jeff
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Keep in mind the aftermarket plating is much better quality than any of the OEM plating... so buying a new one may not be the best route
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Max Power, they are fairly inexpensive, two week turn-around on mine, they stood behind their emailed quote, they are familiar with fixing the exhaust bridges. Use Wiseco piston top-end kit. Best piston with best gaskets, Cometic. Definately re-plate what you have. Ebay can burn you, with a similar cylinder or one in worse condition.
There's a whole thread about which plater everyone likes.
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great thanks!
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Jeff,
Status?
Didja get the plating/repair or another cylinder?
Or has everything been stored for the winter?
By the way, did you get to try Rich's machine with his "new underware" suggestion? Did he show you some ice tires?
Barry
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Yeah, unfortunately it's away for the winter (funds right now are tight), time to take the sleds out anyways :-D . I'm kinda thinking of sending the cylinder out to Eric Gorr for a big bore kit (since I have to pay to get it fixed anyways). Not sure if this is the right move or not.
I wasn't able to ride Rich's bike, it was raining pretty hard out that day, too bad I was really looking forward to it. The ice tires were nice! Would definitely like to get some of those in the future.
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I'm kinda in your boat. I can BARELY get the front end up in 2nd. Desperately in need of a good rebuild! I crave the power these guys talk about, and I remember... :|
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Yeah, unfortunately it's away for the winter (funds right now are tight), time to take the sleds out anyways :-D . I'm kinda thinking of sending the cylinder out to Eric Gorr for a big bore kit (since I have to pay to get it fixed anyways). Not sure if this is the right move or not.
I wasn't able to ride Rich's bike, it was raining pretty hard out that day, too bad I was really looking forward to it. The ice tires were nice! Would definitely like to get some of those in the future.
Big bore kit from what has and is being posted on this forum you need to keep a standard bore.
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Not sure I understand what you're saying?
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BUMP !!
Jeff, don't forget the ice will be here soon ! Get the dam thing re-plated/ big-bored whatever !!! Get er' done dude !!! :)
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LOL! I think she's away for the winter. No cashola right now, I have a few snowmobile engines in need of rebuilding too. Got some good snow tonight, you get much down there?
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LOL! I think she's away for the winter. No cashola right now, I have a few snowmobile engines in need of rebuilding too. Got some good snow tonight, you get much down there?
about 4" I still need to get my sled out from storage. I have to do a few mods. Looks like sled season is going to be lagging this year unless we get a lot of cold soon...