KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: ajt on January 20, 2004, 02:04:43 PM
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Hello and thanx in advance for your help!:) I have a '97 KX 500 (which I have had for only a few months), I weigh 215lbs and race desert in the open expert class. On my old bikes (ktm's) I followed a set-up that went like this: buy the right spring rates for my weight and set the static sag to 37mm +-5 on both the front and rear and if you have the right springs your race sag will be within the recommend range. I have talked to several mechanics and the theory goes like this if the spring rates are even (balanced front to rear), race sag does not matter as it is important to have the bike be balanced. i.e. if both ends are equally to soft for your weight, setting the race sag on the shock to the recomended range will unbalance the bike as the extra pre-load to the shock spring over powers the fork-springs, while if you set the static sag equal in this scenario the bike will be soft but still balanced. This brings about my Questions
1) should I go by this same method of using static sag (front and rear) on the 500, if so what are the ranges you recommend
2) what springs do I need for my weight
3)currently I do not know what springs are in my bike, except that one of the shocks says 5.6 but with .75inch static sag I get 4.5inch race sag, while the front has 1.5inch static sag and 4.5inch race sag
4)It has race-tech gold valves set for my ability/weight what valving do you recommend?
I know this bike is one of the baddest bikes around, but it handles poorly compared to my old 520. It seems like this should be the right place to go for help and I hope that you guys can help me make it handle better than the KTM :evil: !!!
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If you go to the Race Tech site you can type in your bike,rider weight, riding ability, and it'll give you most of the information you need,at least as a start.
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thanx answer to number 2) is .46 for forks and 5.4 for the rear, I look forward to any info on the other questions. I used a search for suspension and there has not been much discussion about setting the sag (static or race), I would hope this is the beginnig of one. :)
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Does anyone out there have an opinion, suggestion or idea they can add. Suspension in my opinion is the absolutley, positively most important part of a bike to set up correctly. After-all new tires or an awesome motor do not mean diddle squat if a bikes suspension is working poorly.
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ajt, I also raced desert but weight in at 200'. I run .46 in the forks, 5.4 in the rear with 7WT fork oil and light shock fluid. my sag came in at exactly 100mm. After motoworks got done with my valving I was in heaven and handing ass whippin' to joung bucks on 250's at the local tracks :lol:
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Thanx. Paul is this the same setup that I see in the video under your name. :)
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Yeah it is :lol:
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ajt,you don?t know that he crash just after the shoot. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Isn?t true Paul? :)
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I did not, thats a perfect "10" landing on the downslope going into the a bowl @ Glamis :lol:
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I think you should try differnt sag settings,some people steer with the front wheel and some with the rear.It's hard to say what works for you may not work for others,but from the video it looks like Paul's got his right!
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I, too, race open expert or Open senior (depending upon the event) and run 5.4 rear and .43 front. I use 5 wt fork oil, and 10 wt suspension fluid in the rear with 160 lbs of nitrogen. Acme performed the suspension mods, and she rides like a dream.
On the sag, both the static and race sag are important measures. Set the static at close to 1 inch (.75 is fine), and then check your race sag. If you vary much from 4 inches, you have the wrong spring for your weight (as a general rule).
However, it must be noted that the position you are in while checking your race sag MUST BE your standard position at race speed. Most folks tend to stand with their weight more to the back of the bike, which will change your spring requirements relative to someone else of the same weight and speed but with a riding position more to the front. The correct position has been discussed here at length, but can certainly be reviewed if desired.
Good luck with the suspension setup. I, too, believe the suspension is a critical part of the bikes safety.
Rick
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Mikesmith that is a good commit, but I would think even with different riding styles you would still be close with the static sag front to rear being somewhere less than a half inch different of each other. At least on my 520 I always stayed that close, I used preload on both the forks or shock to come up with set up that work for desert (.25 more sag rearward) to tight single track(.25in more sag up front).
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Rick I agree !00% that it is important to be in the correct riding/racing position you use. I have tried a little forward or backward can move your measurement more than a turn or two of pre-load.
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The position on the bike is impotant like Rick said when measuring but make sure you where your riding gear (inculding a fanny pack or camel back/drink system) because if you set it up in the garage wearing toe shoes and shorts your not getting the true sag.
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Yep, it is true, that you need to have an accurate weight of you and your riding gear, I am pretty mechanical adept, as such I have used this techiniques. The heart of my question is not how to measure and such but what settings work for other riders out there, so I can take from that information and make an informed decision about how I should set my 500 up (hopefully saving me a lot of time compared to figuring out on my own and helping others out there with the same questions). Once again thanx for any input :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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I have set the rear spring with between 7/8 inch and 1 1/8 static sag depending upon rider preference. The change in static will change your race sag, but your race sag at something close to 4 inches only tells you if you have the right spring for your weight. So, assuming you have the right spring from your weight, change your static sag with the range mentioned and see what you like best.
Also, playing with your fork height in the tripple clamps can also change your ride. I run my forks about 1/4 above the tripple clamps. Any more, and the front end is weighted too much when railing a corner at speed while standing, causing the front end to wash to the inside.
Good luck.
Rick
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A Note:
My bike's set up a bit "Firm Feelin'"; YET, it soaks up every thing and never rides "Harsh". Also, my bike rides rather "Hi" in the "stroke" of both the front and rear. It, also, turns so good that my friends (On KX250, 125 and KXF) are asking Pro-Circuit to make their bikes handle and "Turn" the same way! :shock:
Check that out: My "Big Fat Pig" of a "Ain't been changed since '89(!!!!!)" and "Ain't no Slim feelin Perimeter Framed Freestyler" "Gee, aint that for Old Guys?" "Same as it Ever Was KX500" feels light enough and "Tight" enough that guys with "New Style-Gen Y&Z" scooters are askin' Bones and the guys to set their "Sticker-Mobiles" up like my "Big Bike"! :lol:
The POINT: I realized, as I read Rick's comments A LOT of the Crap that gets said about the K5 is due to the Mushy feeling they often have. Also, as Rick has pointed out on SEVERAL OCASSIONS, firmer springs can make ALL THE DIFFERENCE.
SAG, both STATIC and Dynamic are Critical to the "Feel" of your bike AND IT's ABILITY to T-U-R-N and "Handle". I can not stress ENOUGH how much "Lighter" a KX500 feels with proper set-up!
Spring Rate...Too soft for most...especially "Intermediate" or faster. Too soft to handle correctly for ANYONE fast over 150#. PERIOD!
Dampening...I believe you can get a pretty good set-up stock; However, the AVERAGE guy should rebuild/revalve(If required) AT-LEAST ONCE a YEAR if they ride much. An Oil Change and R&R of seals/worn parts will usually do it.
Service Linkage and R&R worn linkage and Steering-Head parts AT-LEAST once a year (For Mr. Average...more often if you ride a lot!) I just found that I had a MISSING NEEDLE BEARING on a bike prepared by one of the best mechanics out there, trust me, I'm not talking about myself and I'm not B.S.ing! One of the "Needles" was missing on my Pivot/Counter-shaft side. It just wasn't there. Cage was fine...-1- needle missing. That's why we check this stiff.
Adjust/Compare/Test.
If you think that you aren't any good with "Set-Up", try this. Go riding at a Track or Trail that you're REAL FAMILIAR with. Now, try this:
Put your Fork Compression Dampening at FULL HARD. Go ride the bumps carefully(!) and get a feel for how the front works at this setting . BE CAREFUL...IT's going to fell pretty harsh and "Stiff".
Now....set the Fork Compression at full SOFT and try it again. Pretty different? Be CAREFUL and DON'T go Skyin' it over any JUMPS! Your forks are gonna feel pretty "Mushy" and "Springy" (We haven't talked about "Rebound" and in some of the Older forks the "Rebound" is kinda Scary when you are doin' this).
Now, start takin' a guess at where you think you'd like it set at and start TESTING!
Do the Same thing for Rebound.
TAKE NOTES! Compare your comments. If you spend some time learning this stuff, you'll find yourself changing the settings for different Tracks and Trails.
Good Luck,
Manny
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Rick, Manny thanx for the encouraging and informative responses. I should rebuild the linkage/swingarm with some waterproof for sure.I revalved it with race-tech (had acme), and switched to a spring that came with it marked 5.6, well with .75inch static it had about 4.5 inch race, I beleive that was a mistake, now matter where I ran the clickers from full rebound and compression to neither it sucked. It had a big spike in the compression slash kick on the rebound. From to much preload I beleive. Now I put the one that was on it back again. 1.375 static 4.25race rear, 1.5static 3race for the front. Hopefully I be able to ride friday and report good news.:)
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Now you know why I go with Pro-Circuit...they've got a LOT of Green in their history...they set-up a lot of stuff for Kawasaki...some of which they don't get credit for.
Manny
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Manny made a GREAT point on clickers that is worth pointing out. While setting the clickers, don't change more than one thing at a time, as you won't know which change was bad or good. Also, try and think about what you don't like about the suspension. Is is too harsh over the small stuff, big stuff, etc. It also helps to have a buddy watch you from a right angle as you make passes over the same section of trail. You'll be surprised at how the bike will "look" different with changes, and a friend's eyes can be a great source of information.
I serviced my shock and forks over xmas, and just got a chance to ride last weekend. I had increased the oil to 10 weight in the shock and 5 weight in the front. While the rebound clickers both front and rear was still OK, the compression was not. I had to increase three clicks up front, and six clicks in back. The point here that just because the suspension is done once does not mean you are done for good. Servicing the components can mean another day of suspension tuning. The good thing is that with time, you'll get good at "feeling" the difference.
One final note. Last weekend, Ben and I set the clickers on four bikes for folks too afraid to make any changes. With Ben riding the bike (125's and 250's don't fit my frame very well) and me watching him pound whoops, we made changes that improved suspension performance more than the owners could believe. So, as Manny said, keep notes (especially your starting setting), and make some adjustments. With your notes, you can always go back to your starting point again. Don't be affraid to experiment.
Enjoy.
Rick