KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: kawdude on December 29, 2003, 06:00:14 PM
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All,
Going through the process of rebuilding my 94 Kx500 and have some questions. I apologize in advance for the questions but I don't know where else to turn. My Kaw dealer has no clue and just wants me to spend money. :evil:
I pulled the jug and took measurements and it appears out of spec but the compression tests at about 150 cold. I would like to like get Eric Gore to big bore it or just buy a std size jug that's ported. I guess I'm confused on his pricing. It appears that its 425 for the big bore and that includes porting and piston parts. How about valves? Whereas, it would cost 325 to swap jugs and he takes off 50 bucks for a trade. Does this include a new piston? How about the exhaust valve assembly? Any recommendations on which to choose. Has anyone done purchased either from him? Are there any hidden charges for his work?
I also split the case and inspected the tranny...not that I know what to inspect. I did see that the shift forks (ends) are within spec but the knob that rides in the shift drum is out of spec on all three. Should I change these out? I also found that the output shaft bearing is noisy and I will replace that. Is this a common problem? How much play should there be regarding the gears on the shafts?
Crankshaft inspection...what should I look for. I seem to have excessive vibration but I don't have anything to compare it to. I could be normal. No up and down movement on rod but there is some side to side. I planned on sending this to Gore also.
Also, how do I put the crank back in the case. Should the bearings be placed in the case or on the crank. Any tricks?
I noticed that the stator plate is broken by the bolt hole where the timing mark should be. Is the mark in the center of the bolt hole. Is there a way to buy just the plate? I attempted to inspect the main seals and they seem OK. The dry side was dry and the wet side was wet!
Is there anything else I should check??? Again, I apologize for all the questions!!!
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I sent my top end off to Gorr yesterday. The deal as I understand it is for $400 you get:
-bored & replated
-"Mo Better" porting (which is just basically a clean up job)
-new piston
-KIPS valves cleaned and installed
-gasket set
-head machined to lower the compression
I want the lower compression so that I can run pump gas. And if it's only $25 for some kind of 'big bore' kit, well that sounds like a decent deal. There's no substitute for cubic inches. :)
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Wow, Kawdude, that's a lot of questions!! I might be able to help with some of them:
- Have never used Eric Gorr's services, but there have been some posts here that have been less than positive (in fact down right venomous). I have used Rick Peterson Motorsports on a CR265 big bore kit raced in the Open Expert National Hare & Hound Series with great results. I know Eric does a lot of work for folks, I just don't have any experience with his service, so can't be much help here.
- On the tranny, I have only had a couple of problems with a tranny, a broken shifting hub on a KX125, and a counter shaft bearing on a KX250 that took out the case. On an older bike, I would replace the counter shaft bearing without hesitation. As long as the other bearings don't have a lot of play (just by feel, as I don't have specs), I would keep the current bearings. Replace all tranny seals, as they are cheap.
- The vibration is caused from crank runout. The stock runout spec is too high, so having your crank trued will take care of the vibration. If you are going to have the crank trued, replace the rod bearing at a minimum, and rod replacement would not hurt if the wallet will allow.
- Here are the steps to installing the crank:
1-Always install the crank bearings in the cases first.
2-Toss the bearings in the freezer (still in the packages to avoid moisture contamination) for about an hour. While you're at it, toss the crank in the freezer as well, as it needs a little longer to get cold.
3-Heat the bearing pockets in the cases with a small propane torch, and the bearings will just drop in place without any convincing. (You can also use a bearing driver, but most folks don't have one in the garage.) On a KX250, you need to install the seals before the bearings, so heating can create a problem. I put a little grease on the inside of the seals so I can tell if I am getting too much heat on the seal, as the grease will begin to liquefy before you hurt the seal.
4-Before you begin the installation, you will need to build a small frame out of 2x6 standing on edge. The intent here is to have a box that will allow the case half to sit on the edges, and allow the shafts that protrude from the bottom to sit down in the middle. Without this type of frame, you will not be able to drop the crank through the first crank bearing. If you can't figure this out, I can measure mine and let you know the size.
5-Once the bearings are dropped in place, heat the inside race, and drop the crank in place. I install the crank in the case half with all of the gears first, and then drop on the other case half in place. As a note, don't heat the inside race until you are ready to install the crank, so just focus on one case half at a time. Also, don't forget to smear on some case seal on the case halves before you drop the crank through the first bearing, as the crank needs to stay cold enough for both bearings, so time is your enemy when dropping the crank in place. Don't use anything else but the real stuff from the motorcycle shop, as everything else will leak. Don?t force the second case half in place, as you will break the shifting hub. Just wiggle the case, and the hub will drop into the bearing. Might even add a little grease to the hub bearing before you start with the crank installation.
6-Once the cases are together, install all bolts finger tight. You MUST tighten the bolts evenly, such that the case is pressed in place all at the same time. Turn each bolt a half turn at a time in a crisscross pattern until everything is tight. A T-handle is preferred for this task. Also, start with the bolts around the crank in a crisscross pattern, as this is wear the resistance will be.
7-Once the cases are together, use a dead blow hammer to relieve the crank by tapping once or twice on the flywheel end of the crank. If you try and turn the crank before you do this, you will find it turns very hard. Afterwards, it turns easily. Also, check the distance between each crank half and the bearing with a feeler gauge. I try and get the crank centered, with even distance on each side. Not sure if this is that important, but it would seem to be a prudent step. You will probably find the crank is not centered. You can move the crank just slightly with your case splitting tool by just pushing on the proper end of the crank with a little pressure. Releive the crank after centering and recheck the distance.
Viola, you?re done.
Finally, on the stator plate, if the crack allows the stator plate to move, it is a problem. If you need one, you have a problem, as the backing plate is not sold seperately. However, I happen to have one in the shop that should work. We would have to check part numbers, as mine is from a 2002, but if it works, I am sure we can work a deal.
Enjoy the rebuild.
Rick
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Thanks Rick. I appreciate you taking the time to answer all these questions. Lots of excellent information!!! I will replace the countershaft bearing. This bearing has noise and seems a little rough when spun. I will check the other bearings...maybe they don't need replacing. I plan on having Gore do the crank rebuilt. This includes replacing the rod with a "hot rod" kit and bearings.
Several things...
What sealant for the crankcase is recommeneded?
When I pulled it apart I noticed that the crank came out of the left side bearing fairly easily but on the right half I had to use a puller. Is this normal?
When I put the seals and bearings in the case halves. How far to I push them in? Do I bottom the seal and then bottom the bearing.
When I install the crank into the tight bearing will it slide into the bearing easily if the crank is cold and the bearing hot. I don't know how I would "press" the crankshaft into the bearing if it didn't!
Thanks again.
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I'll take a look at home for the case sealer, but several folks make this stuff. I really like the product from ...uh...errr...Honda :oops: . I know, I know, but heh, we use what works. I have also used the following product:
Threebond 1211 Here is the web page:
http://www.instantop.com/cyclepages/threebond.htm
Visit a good local dealer, and they will probably have something in stock, or can get easily. White Brothers sells the Threebond product line, and most good shops have an account with White Brothers. It's not cheap, and will cost you $15 or so, but will last a long time.
In addition, you will want to make sure you remove all of the old gasket material. A razor blade will work, but be careful not to damage the surface. I have also used a dremel with a fiber brush. The best method is to use a scotch bright pad (the green one in the kitchen), but be sure to rinse everything well in a parts washer or with spray on carb or brake cleaner (always wear safety glasses when using the sprays, as the stream will hit various pockets and deflect into your eyes).
On the bearing, it is not uncommon to have a bearing stay on the crank or in the case during disassembly. If they stay on the crank, you will need a press or a good puller to remove. If they stay in the case, just tap them out. In either case, as long as the bearing has not spun on the crank or in the case, you should be fine.
During reinstallation, the bearings should go all the way into the case up against the outside edge of the pocket. You will probably have to tap the bearings in the pockets a little, just make sure you use a brass hammer (if at all possible) and tap at four points around the bearing as you walk the bearing into place. Think of the bearing as a clock face, and tap at 12, 3, 6, & 9 oclock. Don't rush. As soon as the bearing is in place, the tapping tone will change.
On the seal installation, add a little high temp grease to the seal and tap flush with the outside of the case. Hear again, tap gently around the circle. If you have a piece of pipe about the same size as the outside of the seal, you can slip this over the crank and drive the seal straight in, but walking the seal in will work just as well.
I really enjoy working on the bikes, so hopefully you will have as much fun. If you have any more questions, just post 'em up.
Rick
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Finally, on the stator plate, if the crack allows the stator plate to move, it is a problem. If you need one, you have a problem, as the backing plate is not sold seperately. However, I happen to have one in the shop that should work. We would have to check part numbers, as mine is from a 2002, but if it works, I am sure we can work a deal.
Enjoy the rebuild.
Rick
Rick, Let me know how much you want for this plate.
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Here's the scoop on the plate.
I have been trying to get a lighting coil for some time now, but apparently, the only manufacturer of the coil made them too big. I was able to get my hands on one of the "too big" units, and it is sooooo thick, you can't even get the flywheel in place by about 1/4 inch.
One solution is to use the old plate I have and mill the mounting point for the lighting coil so it will accept one of the "tall" light coils. another option is to just make a new stator plate that will accept the tall coil, but a lot more work. Both solutions are last resort, as I would rather have the correct lighting coil, just can't seem to get my hands on one.
With all of that said, assuming I can get the correct lighting coil to slap on the 500, I'll give you my old stator plate for free if you just pay for the UPS. If you are in the US, probably less than $10. Unfortunately, since I have waited a month for a lighting coil, I won't know for a couple of weeks if I am going to need to whittle me a new stator plate, or if the correct lighting coil will be manufactured any time soon.
What do you think, can you wait a couple more weeks?
Rick
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Does anyone know if any KX coil will fit the big KX. The coil on the stator plate
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I'll take a look at home for the case sealer, but several folks make this stuff. I really like the product from ...uh...errr...Honda :oops: . I know, I know, but heh, we use what works. .
Rick
What Honda bond stuff should I use. Number 4???
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Kawdude,
I appologize for not resonding to your coil question (Not sure what I was thinking). Were you talking about the stator coil? If so, I have two extra coils in my shop. If you are talking about the CDI trigger, well....
Rick
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That's Ok. You've already provided lots of great info! As to the coils, I think the coils are ok...just ok. It's the stator plate that is damaged that I need to replace. It's missing a chunk of metal where the timing marks are located. Is the center mark in the center of the bolt hole? Also, what type of honda bond did you recommend or do you think the 3bond product is better. Currently the cases have a greyish gasket material on them. Any ideas what this is?
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I use the Threebond 1104 (grey stuff) in the white and yellow tube, but have used the Honda case sealer before, just don't remember what kind. If you can't find the Threebond 1104, ask the service folks in the Honda shop what they use to seal the cases, and purchase what they use.
On the stator plate, if you can wait just a little longer, I plan to give you a stator plate I have in the shop as soon as I figure out this lighting coil thing. You can't buy just a stator plate, so the purchase would be quite expensive. On another thread, I noted I will be trying to wind my own lighting coil tonight, so might have this thing put to bed in the next week or so.
Rick
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Rick,
That would be great!!! Email me at dumney4@msn.com. Thanks!
Above you mentioned that you recommended the 1211 type goop but then stated you use the 1104. Which one is recommended?
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I've used both, but checked the shop and found the 1104. I have used both, but like the grey color o the 1104. I believe the 1211 is white and the 1104 is grey, but not sure about any other differences. They both worked fine. Also, using a scotch bright pad and carb cleaner sure helps get the old gasket material off.
Rick
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Sounds good. Looked a AutoZone and all they carry is permatex stuff. I'll try Napa.
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I think you'll have to go to a motorcycle shop. Don't think any auto parts stores will carry. However, if you find it at an auto parts store, let us know which one...we might all be able to save some money.
Rick
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Still rebuilding...
Anyone know if there KX has a spacer washer under the kickstarter idler and or on the opposite end of the output shaft. I putting this beast back together and have two very thin spacer washer leftover. These washers can only fit on a limited number of shafts. I thought the one went on the idler gear but with the circlip in place the gear is too tight. Parts diagram on Kaw website doesn't show either but I know they were there.
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This is kind of a hard thing to descrbe,or know if were talking about the same thing.But It's circlip,washer,idle gear,washer,hope this helps or someone else can help.
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It's circlip,washer,idle gear,washer
Excellent description. I understand perfectly but that's not how mine is or was and it doesn't show that on the Kaw website. Mine (94) was (outside in)...circlip, gear, washer, circlip, bearing. At least I think there was a washer there. I'm almost sure. I replaced the bearing and the circlip and now if I use the washer the circlip makes the gear too tight. The problem is if the shaft has any movement when the the cases are together the gear will rub the case. If I push against the output from left to right there isn't a problem. That shaft has a another very thin washer on the output side of the shaft against the bearing. None of which is shown on the Kaw website.
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Well Im not sure what to say,I know its to late now,but pictures or video during dissasembly are helpfull at times like this.
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good point!
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All,
Putting the cases back together and after I tightened the bolts the tranny is bound up. Loosen the bolts it turns freely and shifts. Any ideas??? I goint to attempt to remove the spacer I spoke of before but I'm sure it was there when the engine split/
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Took apart the lower end and reassembled it. Tranny is fine(turns) but haven't tried to shift it yet. I notice that the crank turns tightly and I believe I read that I need to center the crank by beating on the ends. Is this right? How hard can I wack it?
Here are Rick's instructions...
7-Once the cases are together, use a dead blow hammer to relieve the crank by tapping once or twice on the flywheel end of the crank. If you try and turn the crank before you do this, you will find it turns very hard. Afterwards, it turns easily. Also, check the distance between each crank half and the bearing with a feeler gauge. I try and get the crank centered, with even distance on each side. Not sure if this is that important, but it would seem to be a prudent step. You will probably find the crank is not centered. You can move the crank just slightly with your case splitting tool by just pushing on the proper end of the crank with a little pressure. Releive the crank after centering and recheck the distance.
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Does any one have the service limits of the crank and piston/cylinder handy?
Ive got the suplemental service manual and most of what it talks about is service of the suspensionm and doesnt give any limits of engine components.
Right now Im wondering if my big end clearance is ok.
Ive got about .018" of side clearance on the big end
and cant really see any on the vertical play.
My old yz490 manual says .020 for it, I dunno if that would be close for a kx500 tho.
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Hmmm, never owned a manual, so can't help there.
As for "...beating on the ends (of the crank)...", I think I meant to say TAP on the end with a dead blow hammer. Oh, wait, that's what I did say... :lol:
Seriously, it only takes a couple of smacks to relieve the crank. As long as the hammer material is softer than the crank material, you should not damage the end of the crank.
As for tranny bind, you need to be careful to get the sifter hub in the case bearing straight or you will crack your shifter hub when you tighten the cases together. This would also cause the tranny to bind when you tried to manually operate.
Hopefully, you have found the problem by the time you read this post...
Rick
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I removed the spacer that I placed on the output shaft and then reassembled. No bind now. The shifter hub is an excellent suggestion though. I assumed that this was the problem since only the output shaft was tight and not the clutch shaft.
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Tranny issues! Yuck! I've rebuilt the tranny in a old '86 YZ250 I had awhile back and in a CR250 I currently have and I am sooo sick of them. Binding and just small things. When I had to have the KX rebuilt, I just sent the entire engine to E-Gorr. BTW, have you gotten your parts back from him? Just curious.
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No haven't gotten them back. Got a post in dr stating it's taking longer because I needed some welding. Cracks in intake and exhaust ports. Great... The bottem end is together and doesn't appear to have any issues. We'll see. After you had your work done how did it effect the jetting. Did you start with the stock jetting for break in?
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Hey Kawdude, I kept the stock needle and moved to the recommend jet in the jet chart that used to be at the first page of this website for sea level and the stock pilot. Perfect brown plugs so far. I mixed 32:1 for the break in and now am running 40:1 I am too scared to try 50:1 yet.
and yes, it made a huge diffrence in power! But, as from before-after. Yes, it caused the mid to be quite off jetting. But that is why I changed from the needle that I was running to the recommended one. I don't even remember what I was running. But it helped. Thanks to whoever put the chart there. :-)
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Oh yeah, when I sent my entire engine to Egorr he had to weld the tranny together cause of a crack in it too. I guess it is pretty standard. :-(
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What was cracked in the tranny?
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The left case at the bottom, it actually looked like maybe a rock came up and hit it. But, it was about an inch from the drain plug, btw, when I sent my parts to EG it took about 4 MONTHS! :shock: But was totally worth it. Costed me over 1k, but was still worth it. :cry:
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Interesting. I noticed on mine that there is a very small crack on the bottom right in front of the engine mount. Right where one of the case bolts goes. I found it after everything was back together. I said screw it and JB welded it.
4 Months :shock: holy crap!!!
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JB Weld! That is great stuff, but I was too scared as I could see oil was leaking out of the crack, so I did not know if it was a stress point. But, he did a good job on it. I had alot of problems when I sent it in. I let my engine get rained on, neglegence and left my crank to rust and pit. So, had to get another crank too. Uggh, but USC was what took so long. But, again, it is worth it. :-) Now, I need my drain plug fixed, I think I stripped it. :-( But, not willing to check incase I can't tighten it again. :-)
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4 Months :shock: holy crap!!!
Yeah, he had a hard time locating a crankshaft and it was about now, but if nothing is needed, hopefully it won't take that long.
EDIT: I'm looking at my invoice now, let's see, the invoice date was March 10th. Got it back in late May. :-) Let's see here is what was on it:
Cylinder Bore /w USC $165
Weld Repairs (Cylinder & Tranny) $ 75
Engine rebuilding with Crank work $175
Main Bearings & Seals, gaskets, + hot rod $200
OEM Parts: Tranny Bearings + Seals and Crankshaft $265
Wiseco Piston $100
Freight Charge $50
$1030.00 :shock:
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That's the same work that I just got done doing. It's amazing how much that stuff costs. I'm concerned what he's gonna charge me for the welding. I expected to pay around 400 but with the welding and new valves...god only knows what the bill will be. My only concern is he did all this without asking what I wanted to. Granted I would have said yes but still...
Do happen to know if welding on the cylinder effects it in any way?
I'm keeping my fingers crossed on JB weld. The crack is under the crank so very little ever leaks out. I looked inside the crank well when it was apart and didn't see anything. Hopefully all this work won't be for naught.
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I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, aside from that, the welding seems to have held up great! I check my cylinder and lower welding and it has held up great! You would not have even known it was welded if you did not know what to look for.
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Btw, try calling him and ask him about the price, I annoyed the hell out of him asking, but a job that was suppose to be around $700 and knowing it would jack up, I feel the right to ask. :-) Still happy with his work and worth it. Please don't get me wrong.
Thanks
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That's a good point. I think I'll be giving him a call.
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I placed a call to FM and was told that the top should be in my hands by Friday. Cool! Now for some questions...
1. Ring gap- is this done by FM or do I need to do it. What is the spec?
2. Break in Oil- I just purchased 2 quarts of Super-M but I'm hearing that you should NOT use a semi-syn for this period...comments?
Thanks everyone for your patience.
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Ring gap for 1987 up is .006-.014 for new rings and the wear limit is .028,I would check it my self even if FM? has told you he has.As far as not using Super-M to break it in,thats a new one to me.
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EG does check the gap. But, it is always best to check it anyway. Let me know how it runs.
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Woohoo! Top end just arrived.
For the Steel head gasket do the bumps go up and with the circlips is the open end supposed to be up or down or does it matter?
Can't wait crank it up...
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I think the bump is up..
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Head gasket has metal rings in the center,the shorter side faces up.The circlips open end can be up or down but not on its side as they could bonce out of there grooves.
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I asked Maxxima about breaking in the engine with Super-M and they told me theres nothing wrong with useing it to break an engine in,as I thought.Where did you hear it wasnt ?
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Yeah, were did you hear that? I've broken two topends in on this bike and no telling how many on my other bikes. Super M is like the KX500, in a class by itself ;)
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mikesmith,
Thanks for the info. The gaskets are steel so I put the bumps up. Hopefully that's right.
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I did it that way, it is running great to this day. :-) So, I guess it was right. :-)
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I asked Maxxima about breaking in the engine with Super-M and they told me theres nothing wrong with useing it to break an engine in,as I thought.Where did you hear it wasnt ?
Let me try and find the link. I think it was one of the engine tuner sites. It basically was stating that syn or semi shouldn't be use for breakin. SuperM is a semi correct?
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I just used Klotz.. It's running great now...
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Klotz is tops :)
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Super-M is a petrolem/synthetic.
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I'm starting to put the ignition system back together and need to know if there's any adjustment that needs to be done to the stator plate and or coils. I understand that the plate has to have the "lines" lined up for timing purposes but is there any adjustment with the coils? Also, is there a wiring schematic online somewhere that states what wire goes where?
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I havent had the coils off,but Im sure they bolt on with no adjustment.The plate goes has the center mark out of the 3 to the mark on the case.Arent your wires color coded?Or try the Buy Kawasaki web site,not sure if the wire schematic is on there or not.
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.Arent your wires color coded?Or try the Buy Kawasaki web site,not sure if the wire schematic is on there or not.
Yes they are color coded but a couple wires don't match what my service manual shows.
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Is this for just your stator or all the wiring?Are you useing a stator off another bike?
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I agree with mikesmith, there is really like 4 wires for the KX and I can't imagine getting them confused. A wire going from the stator to the CDI, then from the CDI to the coil. I don't think it should be a problem and they usally are color coded.