KX Riders

Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: TheGDog on February 09, 2009, 06:40:27 AM

Title: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: TheGDog on February 09, 2009, 06:40:27 AM
As soon as I can get past the lump of bills coming up... I need to replace the Steering-Stem bearings on the K5.

I'm imagining it's pretty easy to figure out.  I just thought it might be smart to ask you guys if there are any helpful hints or gotchas that can help make doing the job easy and pain-free (...ish, HaHA!).

Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: KXcam22 on February 09, 2009, 09:28:28 AM
It's really easy to do.  You will need a 12" long punch to tap out the bearing races from inside the steering head.  I use a 3/8" steel shaft I found.   As a rule, never hit the new bearing parts with a hammer, always use the old bearing parts to protect the new bearing parts.  The bottom bearing on the steering stem will be destroyed to remove it - thats normal. Tap the new one on to the steering stem using the old one (minus the cage and bearings) upside down as a drift and a piece of pipe over the steering stem to hit that one.  Be nice with pics but I don't have any. Hope this helps. Cam.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: Friar-Tuck on February 09, 2009, 06:00:30 PM
 Piccy's
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/service_steering_head_bearings/index.html
   
  Freeze the races before you install them and put a worklight up on the neck to get it warm/hot . It seems silly but I need all the help I can get!
     I used all-thread rod, nuts, washers and the old bearing to pull in the new races.
The only other thing I can think of is to put the stem in the freezer for a few hrs before you go to drop on the new lower bearings. 
  I don't know how warm you can get the bearings before the grease will fall out as you drop them on the "frozen" stem.
  I  used High Temp Disc  Bearing grease, you could put the bearing in a ziplock and drop it in hot water for a few minutes right before you pulled out the "Stem-cicle"
 I did mine in the summer and put the bearings on top of the grill lid (not lit) to heat up in the sun.

  Oh, and be sure to have the seal on the bottom of the stem BEFORE you put it in the freezer... Or you could drop the bearing on and realize the seal/washer is sitting on the bench :-o .
 and then panic as the bearing got stuck halfway off the stem.....
   and start all over   :x :x   yep  :oops: :oops:
     
   Tuck\o/
   
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: TheGDog on February 10, 2009, 05:06:46 PM
Ok.... and um...  what size (Diameter) pipe to I need so that it fits over the old bearing race just right?

I'm only bothering to ask because I'm a first-time home-owner, and as such I don't have a built-up collection of scrap pieces from "over the years" if ya know what'm sayin.

---

I like the freezer idea.  Thanks!  That's the kinda insider tips I figured you guys would be able to give me.

---

As for grease... wouldn't I want to be using marine grease!?
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: TheGDog on February 10, 2009, 06:10:09 PM
Ooh...Ooh!!  Before I forget... since I have not yet purchase the new steering-stem bearings to replace the old ones... is there a particular aftermarket brand... and/or vendor... from whom I should be more inclined to purchase them from?


For example... a quick eBay search and this one vendor advertised MOOSE Steering stem bearing/seal kit.

I've generally thought the other MOOSE products I've used (tubes, field wrenches) were sturdy/well-made... so my thinking was I should prefer that kit.  I seem to recall the other main one I found being sold was made by ALL-BALLS.

P.S.  Thanks for the love you've been showing me!

P.S.S.  Ugh... as soon as my wife can finish with her dang online univ. classes I might actually be able to do some wrenching during the weeknights  :S
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: KXcam22 on February 11, 2009, 03:10:23 PM
I got mine from my local industrial bearing wholesaler.  Better quality than the oem and 1/3 the price.  I read the bearing numbers off the old bearings and ordered them - came with seals a bit different than the oem but just as good.  If I recall correctly, the seal was built into the bearing.  My red bikes have a separate thin washer with a seal around the outside that goes under the bearing before you press it on. I can't speak for the moose although I am sure they are good and might be a good way to go.  There is also allballs racing.  I have used a few of their kits - chinese bearings so not the quailty of a good SKF or NTN - with good results.  Off topic: they make kits to retrofit non-tapered bearing steering heads to taperered -like my CBR900RR and my sons CRF100 - I can't believe anyone would build a motorcycle with ball bearings in a steering head. Marine grease is mucho-excellent since the main enemy of stearing head bearings is the pressure washer.  I have not had much luck with freezing the steering stem.  Here is my brute force method:

1. use a long punch to tap the old bearing off the steering stem. Take your time and don't worry about wrecking the cage. Try not to miss and gouge the aluminum stem.  You will destroy any seal that is there, that is a given.
2. remove the cage and rollers from the old bottom bearing.  You will use it upside down with the thin side pressing against the thin side of the new bearing.
3. Put the seal on the steering stem (if there is one) the slide the new bearing over the stem down as far as it will go.  Put some lube on the stem.
4. place the old cageless bearing upside down on top of the new bearing. Notice that the two thin sides touch but nicely clear the cage on the new bearing - so you don't damage it (your "drift").
5. get a approx 12" scrap pipe that is large enough to fit over the steering stem but small enough to seat nicely on the the thick side of the old bearing.
6. Tap the pipe with a hammer until the bearing seats.  You can ususally tell it is seated because the noise it makes hitting it with the hammer will change to sound more solid.
7. Top bearing is a slide fit so no issues.

Sorry no pics. Good luck. Cam.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: Friar-Tuck on February 11, 2009, 05:15:00 PM
  Cam,
 I didn't think of the marine bearing grease, I'll remember that one.   I also remember a guy recommending this stuff ,however I never saw any.
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=82915556&contentId=7022499

(Now that you mention it, it was the CR that I messed up and forgot the washer/seal on after I dropped the bearing on the stem and it got stuck halfway back off :-o :x)

   Dawggy,
Take the old bearing with you to  home depot or the like and find the pipe section,  or look toward the back of the store for the pipe machine.
There are usually small scrap pieces where customers have employees cut and thread pipe.
   The best bet would be a pipe & supply house or plumbing house. The usually have lots of scrap in back.
            Heck, take the stem with you,  you might get lucky and  find someone to hook you up just for the sake of "Helping a Brother out".
 
  I second the SKF or Timken bearing, They all work off the same #'s.  And that goes for everything "Bearing" not just bikes.

 Tuck\o/
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: KXcam22 on February 12, 2009, 03:36:54 AM
The Belray waterproof grease is the absolute best.  I use it on my boat prop too.  I did a test and after a day wakeboarding the belray was the only grease left on the ouside of the prop (I painted a few types on).  The others are long gone. Silly but a fun test.  I guess the main point I was trying to make was to use the old bearing as a drift.  I have ruined a few bearings by accidentally hitting the cage. Its hard to find pipe that fits the small end and is inside the cage. I have a thousand diff pipe sizes are work and none fit. Using the old bearing they almost all fit. Cam.

ps use disposalble latex gloves when you put it on as it doesn't wash off your hands without a fight.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: DoldGuy on February 12, 2009, 11:44:38 AM
GDog,

Great posts above from KXCam & Tuck. I have had great success using Tucks method on all types of bearings. Heat the lower bearing and Freeze the Triple Tree. As far as the bearing races, again heat the steering head of the frame, freeze the races (I have use a long bolt and the old race to pull the race in simply but snugging the nut up) The Hot/Cold Method works Great on just about any bearing installation (Hubs, Cases, Etc.)
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: GDubb on February 13, 2009, 11:43:47 AM
Anyone use the Allballs kit on their K5? I need to replace mine as well but when I read the reviews at rockymountain alot of people said that the seals were too small and let water and dust in. Doesnt look like they offer any other brand on the website.

Cam... how do you find a bearing wholesaler? What would they be listed under?


-G
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: kxpegger on February 13, 2009, 11:59:33 AM
Quote from: TheGDog on February 09, 2009, 06:40:27 AM
As soon as I can get past the lump of bills coming up... I need to replace the Steering-Stem bearings on the K5.

I'm imagining it's pretty easy to figure out.  I just thought it might be smart to ask you guys if there are any helpful hints or gotchas that can help make doing the job easy and pain-free (...ish, HaHA!).



http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531298
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: GDubb on February 13, 2009, 12:26:05 PM
Quote from: kxpegger on February 13, 2009, 11:59:33 AM
Quote from: TheGDog on February 09, 2009, 06:40:27 AM
As soon as I can get past the lump of bills coming up... I need to replace the Steering-Stem bearings on the K5.

I'm imagining it's pretty easy to figure out.  I just thought it might be smart to ask you guys if there are any helpful hints or gotchas that can help make doing the job easy and pain-free (...ish, HaHA!).



http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531298

What are the chances of ovaling the head tube with this method? Just asking because that was the first thing that popped in my head when I read it.


-G
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: kxpegger on February 13, 2009, 01:28:47 PM
Quote from: GDubb on February 13, 2009, 12:26:05 PM
Quote from: kxpegger on February 13, 2009, 11:59:33 AM
Quote from: TheGDog on February 09, 2009, 06:40:27 AM
As soon as I can get past the lump of bills coming up... I need to replace the Steering-Stem bearings on the K5.

I'm imagining it's pretty easy to figure out.  I just thought it might be smart to ask you guys if there are any helpful hints or gotchas that can help make doing the job easy and pain-free (...ish, HaHA!).



http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531298

What are the chances of ovaling the head tube with this method? Just asking because that was the first thing that popped in my head when I read it.


-G

I guess that could happen? At some point I think most people would realize that an excessive amount of force was being used and back off if the race didn't pop out. I think the originator of this method had exhausted all other options. He tried the weld method, Dremel to cut the race and tapping it out with a punch. I just offered it as a possible solution and it need not be deemed a standard.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: TheGDog on February 13, 2009, 03:41:58 PM
Hrmm... thanks to the other poster for explaining what SKF was. I assume that NTN is also an abbrev. for another brand of bearing.

I assumed that these bearing would be roller bearings... is that not so!?
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: Friar-Tuck on February 14, 2009, 01:40:08 PM
  GDubb,
 I was under the impression AllBalls was made in China.
 I have however did use the AB's, in my kids CRF 150 before I knew the above,
 they worked fine and have just about any kit you could want.  We just trail ride so I don't know for sure how they hold up in a racing envirornment.

Tuck\o/
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: KXcam22 on February 14, 2009, 05:05:01 PM
SKF is an excellent quality german bearing, the best.  NTN is an excellent japanese bearing, likely just as good.  The Allballs bearings are definitely chinese.  Inferior to the first two - you can feel and see the difference in surface finish. I personally wouldn't run them as a high speed bearing (crank etc) but in a stearing head they would be fine, other than any seal issues.  The only advantage the Allballs have (other than price) is that they make kits the others do not, plus lots of metric oddball sizes that help when doing fork swaps or other custom work.  Bearing wholesalers are in your phone book yellow pages under "bearings".  I have BC bearing and KAMAN bearing nearby.  The races in the steering head pop out quite easily.  I doubt it would be possible to oval the head doing this.  My CBR900RR ones (alum frame) came out the same as steel framed ones. Just use a long punch with a good end (not rounded).  The stock KX bearings are good quality japanese bearings in std sizes. They can be matched up to SKF/NTN .  I did 4 steering heads last winter so I am up on the topic, 2 allballs conversions, 1 fork swap and 1 straight replacement. Hope this helps. Cam.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: Hick on February 15, 2009, 05:47:32 AM
Pivot works has instructional videos on their website as well.  Has anyone used the pivot works kit?
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: traileater on March 12, 2009, 01:13:10 PM
I figured posting this in here wouldnt be a bad idea, along the same lines, how hard is it to press out a stem from a lower clamp? Im parting out an old rm250 and the buyer only needs the stem.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: Hick on March 12, 2009, 01:37:13 PM
Did it on my K5 the other day was real easy with a press.  Did not take much time at all.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: traileater on March 12, 2009, 03:07:43 PM
Ok, but how did you set it up to press it......piece of pipe over the stem maybe? I want to do it right without marring the clamp or stressing anything.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: KXcam22 on March 12, 2009, 04:07:28 PM
Stem down through the press, wood under the clamp to protect it and a suitable large socket on the end of the stem, then press away.  Some bikes are extremely tight. Cam.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: Hick on March 12, 2009, 04:36:45 PM
Yep thats how i did it.  look at the vid on pivot works page good visual.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: TheGDog on January 02, 2013, 06:22:46 PM
Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread so far.


This brings me to the point I'm at now. I'd like to post a pic and verify that what my finger is pointing at in the pic is the inner bearing race for the lower end of stem... and that this piece indeed needs to be removed? And once again re-verify the tips & tricks for how best to remove it.  I've re-read this thread in its entirety this evening in preparation for attacking this last part of the Steering Stem Bearing Replacement Project that is soooo long overdue.

On to the pic..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/TheGDog/KX%20500/Steering%20Stem%20Bearings/IMG_0322_zps9accee86.jpg)
Another more close-up...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/TheGDog/KX%20500/Steering%20Stem%20Bearings/IMG_0320_zps7171dae8.jpg)

You'll notice the scratch marks under this lower bearing inner race. These make me question if using the edge of a center punch on the protruding lip of the bottom of the inner bearing race is maybe a bad idea?

How do you get this bastard off?
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: Polar-Bus on January 02, 2013, 10:39:40 PM
Option A is to use a pneumatic cutoff wheel to cut the inner race, it works, but gouges the crap out of your stem shaft.

Option B is much better and proffesional, but you need a shop press :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R92wxhc4_E

I have a shop press, if you want mail me your stem and i'll press the old and new bearing N/C as a favor.

Rich
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: tobys 2 strokes on January 03, 2013, 01:37:51 AM
heat the race up and it will fall off some times it will need a tap to get it going
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: TheGDog on January 03, 2013, 04:21:09 AM
Do I need to first freeze the whole thing, then immediately after taken out of freezer apply heat to that race?   Or should I just try heating the race only?
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: don46 on January 03, 2013, 05:16:57 AM
not sure about the heat method of removal, race is steel and the stem is Aluminum, I would think the al will expand faster than the steel. I would press it out, granted you do have to be careful and support the clamp, but it can be done very effectively
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: Polar-Bus on January 03, 2013, 06:16:59 AM
I agree with don46, I tried once using a hefty amount oxy/acetylene heat to remove the lower stem bearing, and in this particular situation heat simply doesn't work.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: The Flyin Hawaiian on January 03, 2013, 11:07:12 AM
I just heat the race up some with a trigger start torch and use a chisel, positioned against the lip of the race, and drive it off with a hammer. Very easy and has always worked for me. Then I use a piece of thin walled copper pipe thats the same diameter as the inner race of the bearing and press it on with my cheapo Harbor freight press.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: alward25 on January 03, 2013, 11:40:24 AM
This has always driven me crazy.  Now, I just press the stem off and press it back on and then press the bearing and seal on, remember the seal before the bearing.  Heat if you don't have access to a press.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: cbrfrenzie on January 04, 2013, 02:58:11 AM
Quote from: alward25 on January 03, 2013, 11:40:24 AM
This has always driven me crazy.  Now, I just press the stem off and press it back on and then press the bearing and seal on, remember the seal before the bearing.  Heat if you don't have access to a press.
This is typically what I do as well.   However, on my 2003 KX5 the stem and lower triple clamp are welded together.... What year(s) of the KX500 came with pressed in stems vs welded?
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: alward25 on January 04, 2013, 04:04:19 AM
None of them came welded that I know of.  My 01 was not.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: don46 on January 04, 2013, 05:20:38 AM
Quote from: cbrfrenzie on January 04, 2013, 02:58:11 AM
Quote from: alward25 on January 03, 2013, 11:40:24 AM
This has always driven me crazy.  Now, I just press the stem off and press it back on and then press the bearing and seal on, remember the seal before the bearing.  Heat if you don't have access to a press.
This is typically what I do as well.   However, on my 2003 KX5 the stem and lower triple clamp are welded together.... What year(s) of the KX500 came with pressed in stems vs welded?

That is correct, none came welded in place. They are all removeable from the factory.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: TheGDog on January 26, 2013, 08:25:12 PM
BIG THANK YOU!!! To all of you who very thoughtfully took your time and weighed-in on this plea for help with your tips.

I tried to post this thank you maybe 2-3 weeks ago, but the site was down for a bit.

As it stands right now, I all all races and bearing removed. The bottom triple tree and stem in the freezer did the trick for removing the bottom inner bearing race. The approx 3/5ths of the edge of that race which is exposed on the backside of the bottom triple tree I just held a punch to the edge of the race and tapped at intervals around the curve and back again and it went fairly quickly.

I wanted to share that for removing the outer bearing races stuck in the steering head... I had purchased a specialized tool fom RockyMountainAtv. Has 4 flange tips that fan outward in a spring-like fashion. The idea is you place those 4 flanges just under the rim of the bearing cups stuck in the stem then strike the other end which is a steel insert specifically for striking it.  

I did something very stupid and I want to share it so that nobody else puts themselves thru this frustration.  

When I enthusiactially first went to use this brand-new tool I figured I'd attempt to knockout the top one first, since I figured it'd be slightly trickier to do, then do the bottom one since I figured with gravity helping that'd be a cakewalk (which the bottom one was).

HERE IS WHERE I DID SOMETHING VERY DUMB... my work area doesn't have a lot of room at the moment... I inserted the 4-flange tool in thru the bottom hole... pushed it upward until it stopped... ASSUMED it was stopped because it was up against that upper bearing cup..... WRONG!!!!  The upper part of the steering stem tube where the upper bearing cup gets pressed in... that hole is beefed-up internally, with a concentric circle (inner-lip) of steel to sort of neck-down the upper opening in the steering stem tube to A) become the narrower size that the upper bearings are and B) most likely to strengthen that top side since it has the spanner nut that tightens down against it.

Soo... unknowingly... like a frickin' idiot... I was beating the ever-lovin' snot outta this new tool, striking it upward with an 8 Lbs sledge.  And since I had not peered inside the steering stem to verify WHERE that 4 flanges were stopped against... like an idiot I was basically blasting this brand-new tool into that immovable inner lip of steel which was part of the frame itself.. rather than the bearing cup.  

Thank goodness I was wise enough to batten-down the bike to the center stand by running a tie-down thru/around the footpegs on both sides of the center-stand, otherwise I'd be cryin' a whole 'nother kinda blues too.  :-o

So with the massive beating I gave this tool it essentially rendered it useless since introduced some kinkage (word?) to the flanges. Just imagine your fingers extended out straight, then pressed against a flat surface... they "buckle" at the knuckles. Something like that happened to my new spiffy tool. (Lovely!)

So ended-up just finding a long-enough center punch, and hooking it's edge on the lip of the bearing-cup and on like the 2nd hit it popped right out. (This... after mistakenly hammering for a very long time against that inner frame lip before. Grrr!)

I used the 4 flange tool to pop out the bottom one in the steering stem just fine. It wouldn't work for the top one now though... I tried slowly feeding that tool in from the top until I felt it "click" into place just under the bearing cup. Even visually verified it too. But by then I think the punishment I gave it, and the resultant change/bend it gave the flange "fingers" made them unable to get enough of a binding hold on that edge. Every time I tried to strike upwards against it in this correct position... by now that tool just laughed at me and popped-up and out the top of the steering stem.

I'm only bothering to mention all this cr@p because I actually think it's a neat tool that would have worked fine if I hadn't mistakenly beaten the $h!t out of it into that inner frame lip in the top steering stem opening.

Maybe tomorrow I will try to put the new bearings on. I also purchased a specific tool for doing that task. It's basically an aluminum pipe (with a steel insert for striking at the top of it) with a coupling attachment and 2 different end attachements... of which... these 2 end attachments can be flipped over until you find one of the 4 different sizes this offers you until you find the right one for the current application you're attending to.

Once again... I really want to thank you all for your help.  And I jus tknow there have to be others who are reading this thread and learning something from it along with me.
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: TheGDog on January 27, 2013, 11:37:27 AM
Putting it back on is tons easier!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/TheGDog/KX%20500/Steering%20Stem%20Bearings/2013-01-27_16-25-19_689_zps638690c3.jpg)
For the nut that requires the spanner wrench and tightens down onto the upper bearing... about how snug should I be tightening this one down?  I figure once the leverage of the handlebars is on I'm less likely to notice the friction I can notice with just my hands moving the fork-clamps back-and-forth?

I figure going too tight to begin with is probably harsh on the bearings??... and I'm figuring this is one of those areas I'll have to re-visit everytime after the first maybe 3 rides until everything seats down all the way?  Does that sound right?

Or... should it be that I should not need to come back here at all after initial installation?

What are the Torque specs on the top nut that affixes the top triple tree to the stem?
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: bjohn07 on January 27, 2013, 12:14:05 PM
so what bearings did you end up going with?   anyone know any skf or national part numbers.   , ive done this a bunch of times on street bikes, same concept. usually i just use a spanner and crank it down to get a good seat.  back it off and then put it snug enough to where there is no binding when moving the triple from stop to stop.   screw driver and hammer work good but you got to be careful.   the top 6 point nut is the one that should be torque set. and the setting im not sure. 
Title: Re: STEERING STEM BEARING Replacement - Any Pointers?
Post by: TheGDog on February 16, 2013, 02:50:31 PM
Thank you all. The Beast is back up and fully operational as of today. :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/TheGDog/IMG_0599_zps8bd21b4d.jpg)
(SIGH... now I gotta put on the new rotor for that KDX200 and install new Front Brake Master-Cylinder Rebuild kit. And I probably have to get a caliper rebuild kit for it too. Another story for another thread ;-} )