KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX450F / KX250F => Topic started by: dans89kx500 on March 24, 2008, 05:02:59 AM
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I'm looking into buying a new kx450f. I currently ride an old kx500. I ride it everywhere, track and on the trails. Now I want to leave the past behind and step into the future. How would you compare the two bikes? Are they just apples and oranges?
Thanks for the info
Dan in Vacaville
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You can't compare the KX500 vs. the KX450F. It's apples and oranges. From the little posted info about what you are looking for, you will benefit from the 450F. I'd go for it.
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I might be able to help here a bit. I have been riding my KX500 and my CRF450 back to back a few times (for the sake of comparison I am considering the CRF and the KXF as equivalents). They are definitely apples and oranges. First thing I noticed was noise. The 4-stroke is deafeningly loud, like riding thunder. The KX500 is pleasantly quiet by comparison. Power is no comparison, the KX500 has more everywhere, bottom, mid, top end, not even close. Traction is a different story, the 4-stroke just goes forward really quickly without a lot of fanfare, while the KX will spin and fishtail - This is the most noticable difference. The KX idles down to zero RPM, lugs nicely and can crawl through tricky sections. The 4-stoke coughs and stalls everywhere. I stalled 20 or more times the first ride on the 4-stroke. My KX500 is really comfy but the ergometrics of the new bike are fantastic, handling and turning are effortless. Weight is about the same but the 4-stroke seems heavier when putting it up on a stand. Kicking effort is about the same, except the KX500 starts first kick every time and 4-strokes take some learning. My first 4-stroke start was 20 kicks. The KX500 is great in whoops, but the 4-stroke beats it, gobling up any whoop you launch over. Maintenance on the 4-stroke is at least double (or tripple).
However, the 4-strokes are the future and the are very nice. You won't be dissapointed with the KXF450. I would be on one if my dealer was nicer. Hope this helps. Cam.
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Great email Cam, you really answered a very vague question that I asked. I love my k5, its a great bike. The only real complaits are traction (fishtailing is an understatement) and vibration. It starts easy and will run every weekend with no problems with little maintance.
I have never owned the new modern 4 strokes and the kxf450 seems like a great bike. I see the way they fly around our local mx track (argyll park) with the rider seeming to give not as much effort as the k5. I am the only guy on the track with an older open class bike.
Dan in Vacaville Ca
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I forgot to mention one final but significant difference. On the KX500 warms up nicely when it sits and idles while you put your final riding gear on. The 450 4-stroke is practically boiling over by the time you get your helmet on. Boy do they run hot! I think engine ice, overflow bottle and even possibly larger rads could be in order. Cam.
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the only reason the 4 poke is the future is we have let the epa control us,,2 stokes dont drop valves ,,break valve springs or lose cam lobes..topend job 150.00 2stroke///1500.00 4 stroke ..feeding 4 stroke riders roost pricesless
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Actually, in a race 2-strokes probably burn less oil too. Cam.
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Thanks for the reply's. So IYHO would you just buy a new 250 stroke over a 450? The problem is, only KTM still builds an open class two stroke (300cc). Boiling over a 4 stroke or drops valves sound a bit scary. I'm 37 and have never owned a 4 stroke or ridden a newer model. Im also still not sold on buying one.
Thanks,
Dan in Vacaville
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The KTM 300 is a nice bike, best bottom end power I have found compared to the KX500. New YZ250 looks nice too. With my new 4-stroke I am not worried in the least about valves and other issues. I single track ride so the bike will not spend extended time at high RPM, only short blasts while I get my jollies. I am also a maintenance nut, love synthetic oil and clean my air filter lots so I am expecting at leat 100 hours between valve changes. I put a rad catch tank on and will probably try some better coolant so temp should not be an issue either. Bought a 15oz FWW on ebay to cure the lowspeed stalling thing. Transfered my poor-mans enduro computer. Put on a full compliment of fork, rad guards and skidplate, shark fin in the making. All I need to get is a larger gas tank and then the new 4-stroke should be as close to equivalent to my KX500 as can be. Time will tell how it works out for me. I do know that riding the bike is like magic, ergos, handling, traction, and just about everything together make you feel like a super-hero on wheels! Cam.
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I don't understand how the EPA has regulated us to four strokes? Why not a two-stroke with direct injection? Fuel injection? And possibly other technologies to release less hydrocarbons. We have the technology we can rebuild him. 8-)
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You can have my two strokes when you pry them from my cold dead hands. I so glad that I'm so slow that I don't care about having a state of the art bike.
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You gentlemen left out two very droolable options. All you have to do is pony up the greenbacks and get either the CR500AF or the KX500AF. :evil: :-D :-D I should be able to afford mine when I'm 50. :cry: :cry: It is an option however. Or the increasing in popularity heart transplant. Does anybody have dollar figures as to the cost? I love my 2 smoke, but I also love the new chassis's. I'm also giving thought to getting a 450F (not replace my 500), but as Cam mentioned, I'm concerned about the maintenance. I don't mind maintenance, but I have only limited spare time and more time riding and less time maintaining is where I'm at. :-D
Kev
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Ride report:
I have about 6 hours on my 4-stroke now. I have been noticing some significant differences between the KX500 and 4-stroke power delivery, and some other items. First off when climbing slow, ugly hills the KX500 is far superior. With the KX I can set the throttle at a fixed 1/3 and modulate the clutch to crawl up almost anything - never stalls. The 4-stroke on the other hand does not like that and will stall at suprising times (and in the worst places). However, on the KX500 1st gear is unusable for hills, if I hit 1st I turn around right away since all the KX will do is dig a big hole in the hill. The 4-stroke will chug in 1st gear and traction up without digging a hole. With the 4-stroke you can apply noticeably more power in a corner, and it powers out of the corner faster with no fanfare, no spinning, just rocket forward motion, 2 rides and I can already corner faster.
Maintenance: did the the first oil change - was fast and easy, not as much of a pain as I have heard. My bike uses separate engine/trans oils with oil filter on the side. I used one of those "billy-who" funnels (a must) and calibrated my own tupperware oil jug (0.25 at a garage sale) for the fill amounts. Didn't even make a mess. On a 4-stroke it is much safer to use a pre-cal amount of oil rather than the level holes on the bike, which are generally innacurate. Now that it is broken in I will switch to Amsoil synthetic for the engine and Type F ATF for the transmission. Cam.
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i can give the new 4 strokes some credit here but not tons i had a yzf 426 with a few mods hot cams and had the head drilled so it would relieve pressure that builds on the top end but man that thing ran so hot that i was afraid to let it run 2 mins if i wasnt moving down a trail in 90 + weather and have u guys ever seen inside a new 4 stroke engine it looks like they dont even bother to clean slag off the molds it looked as if u was taken apart a chinese lawn mower motor. but that bike would run past any cr 500 i ever had but it constantly needed the valves re adjusted. and i agree with cam the thing thunders outta corners it just puts the power to the ground in a way thats are undecribable to a 2 stroke. i change my 2 stroke crank oil every day if i ride it more than 4 hours anyhow so i dont see much difference there but i let my buddy take the bike for a ride and he didnt do anything i wouldnt of done and it blew up hard would of cost me 2,400 to get it fixed better off just gettin a new motor i ended up selling the chasis to a guy that had a yzf 450 motor sittin in his garage was just easier to part with than to fix in my book and the 250 4 strokers blow up way more often than there big brother the 450 i have alot of friends that race the new not so bad *** 4 strokers and wow what junk i rode a ktm 300 the other day i got to give it to that bike its got alot of grunt for a 300 if i was to buy new thats what id buy!
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what could be done to make the 500 have the clean takeoffs of the 4 strokes? flywheel weight maybe, or different gearing? i would love not to dig 6 inch holes everywhere (at least not all the time!)
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No offence, but if you want less power, get a 250 and stroke it/mod it. That'd be between a 250 and a 500 and might be the answer there. Maybe also get a bigger rear tire. Just like a car, the bigger the tire, the more traction. Just thoughts.
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KX or CR 500AF are the real program, half the reason the 4 strokes get better traction is modern geometry the other half is simply smoother power pulse. But put a flywheel weight on a 500 AF and they are awesome trail bikes. Get those new 4 stokes smoken hot in the trails and when ya stall them you be kicking it all day.
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I switch riding between a kx500 and a yz450f.Its true the 4strokes do like to stall in some inconvenient spots , but a flywheel weight seemed to cure that.I seem to use the brakes a hell of a lot more with the KX.The newer suspension is a real plus on the YZ,but I'm gonna put a Racetech setup in the KX and hopefully it matches up well with the Yamaha.
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I seem to use the brakes a hell of a lot more with the KX.
That's one major point I forgot to mention, Engine braking on down hill trails are a bonus on the 4 strokes. But I hate the popping and farting.
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I race the Houston area, You wouldn't believe the number of racers that have "Had It" with 4 strokes....You'r first comprehensive over haul will cost you 1/2 of what the bikes original cost is and this will happen from 35 to 70 hrs. on the engine . I'm not sure the 4 stroke is going to work well . many families can't afford the higher 4 stk. cost as opposed to what they used to pay to run a 2 stk....If you fall they dont restart well , finicky jetting is very sensitive to temp. and altiutde changes...and the Fuel injected Suzi's are a constant maintenance item..(maybe down the line they'll get better)..The AMA has restructured the classes to benifit the 2 stk this year...The new YZ 250 Has a 4 stk like powerband to help lure riders back...2 Strokes aren't dead yet...with the encomomy in a pinch, look for 2 strokes to sell very well this year...and of course manufactures will notice ..they don't like to build bikes that won't sell.....Kerry
[previous quote]"I seem to use the brakes a hell of a lot more with the KX -500"
Well coasting is a bad habit in MX..The K5 shoud be ran hard to the corner then brake hard,1 click down on the shifter, turn and feed em' a constant roost diet...they dont manufacture a good enough chest protector and enough tear-offs to stay behind a KX-500 very long...So if they are behind you...Give em' a taste.....Could we start you off with an appitizer today???........Kerry
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That is exactly what has kept me out of the 4 choke market. My girlfriend is getting ready to buy her first bike ever (after I took her for a ride on my K5 she was hooked!). The salesmen at the local Kawi dealership and at the Honda dealership were both pushing the new fourstrokes. I told them they had got to be kidding if they thought I was gonna buy a bike that was gonna cost half of what I paid for it just to rebuild it when the time came. Honda didnt have anything to offer except a CR85 for a 2 stroke, and Kawi was pushing the KLX140L. But she is a smart cookie, and is set on the KX100.
One good thing about the fourstroke 450f and 250f is that in the future there should be plenty of rolling chasis' on the market for pretty cheap and if I can ever afford it, it will be K5 swap city for me.
-G
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:x My buddy recently got a CRF450X. I guess the valves must be adjusted at certain intervals. The first adjustment cost him about 500$. Then the bike was makin some funny noises, it cost him 400$ and change. Somthing about the compression release. He was looking at aftermarket exhausts too. But decided against it. An after market Pro-Circuit setup is around 7 or 800$. NO Thanks, I stay with the KX500! 8-)
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The valves are a constant adjustment problem. The compression release works of of the exaust valves and has to be adjusted as well then you've got the cam chain , even if you have an auto adjuster..you still have to check it. The cost of a 4 stk. exaust will get your 2 stk a pipe ,and suspension set up nice, unbreakable levers and aftermarket replacement reeds....lay them over in a corner during a race and see which one starts first...the NGK plug for a CR450f msrp right at $16.00 ......Kerry
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I just had to put a head on a yamaha yfz 450. Unloaded head $425.00, valves $80.00 X 5, cams $300.00, springs $1.25 X5 . I was able to use the the retainers and seats. These are the best prices I could find on line and and did not include piston, cylinder and gaskets this was for an 04 quad.I still feal bad for fixing the bike for the guy I tried to talk him in to parting it out and buying a new one.
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I race the Houston area, You wouldn't believe the number of racers that have "Had It" with 4 strokes....You'r first comprehensive over haul will cost you 1/2 of what the bikes original cost is and this will happen from 35 to 70 hrs. on the engine . I'm not sure the 4 stroke is going to work well . many families can't afford the higher 4 stk. cost as opposed to what they used to pay to run a 2 stk....If you fall they dont restart well , finicky jetting is very sensitive to temp. and altiutde changes...and the Fuel injected Suzi's are a constant maintenance item..(maybe down the line they'll get better)..The AMA has restructured the classes to benifit the 2 stk this year...The new YZ 250 Has a 4 stk like powerband to help lure riders back...2 Strokes aren't dead yet...with the encomomy in a pinch, look for 2 strokes to sell very well this year...and of course manufactures will notice ..they don't like to build bikes that won't sell.....Kerry
We've had riders go back as well, but then most aren't the most mechanically apt anyways and it wouldn't matter whether they rode 2 or 4 stroke. I don't know where you got the 35-70 hrs. number or the 1/2 the cost of new, but I would have to call BULL, I've had 5 250f's and 1 450f and haven't had problem 1 on either, these are Race/Practice bikes. Oil and air filters are changed diligently, valves are checked frequently, rarely have I had to adjust them, the 450 is on it's second season, I've cleaned the scavenger screen, changed the piston, checked the valves (they haven't moved since new) it runs like a watch. In my opinion, most people that have problems can be traced back to them, and it doesn't matter the brand. Oil and air are number one, then stay off the rev limiter all the time, can't tell you how many times I've listened to some of the local racers riding them like a 125, hammering the rev limiter, and low and behold they are the ones with the crappy bike that blows up, and right next to them is the same brand with no troubles.
Admittedly they are more labor intensive and cost more if they do blow up, but out on the track a 250 2t doesn't stand a chance, if they did you'd see more at the races. I read an article in DR today, there was a kid that was trying to qualify a 250 RM, couldn't make it, then went out on a 450he'd never been on before and beat his lap times by 7 sec. If a person was only doing cross country or trail rideing a 250 2t would be a fine play bike, but if you want serious MX you have to go 4t.
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Don ; The post prior to yours replace the head...over $1000.00 , no piston, rod, crank, and labor. Don I didn't register on this forum to come on here and lie....If I don't know,I don't reply.
The people who I know that have had these problems change there oil often ( some every ride ! ) . It maybe that it's hotter here than where you live ( left blank-no entry) Your quite fortunate that you can change a piston or crank. most mx Dad's can't do that. , so they have to pay a shop to do the work and it adds up.
2 stks. are competitive. Mike Clement ( 6 time Vet. World Champion ) does it on a 2 stroke , the guys trying to stay up with him are on the limiter and constantly winging the clutch.....km
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I'm not syaing your lying, I'm trying to understand, by your account, every 35-70 hrs you must shell out $3000-3500, lets be real, if that was the case the manuf. wouldn't sell 4 strokes, there would be a revolt. Sorry to say, I still believe it goes back to the person riding/maintaining the bike. On the MX track a 2t can be competitive in a very few circumstances, very few, for example a very tacky track with an abundance of ruts, on a hard slick track no way. Sadly, look at the starting line at the Supercross races or last year at the nationals, if a 2t was good you'd see more of them on the starting gate. If everybody went back to 2t , I'd be right in line, but at this time to be competitive you've got to have a 4t, bottom line. On the KXf there is no adjustment on the compression release, the cam chain is automatic.
Yes there are things that are more of a pain on the 4t, you won't get any disagreement from me on those points. I'm saying no way that kinda dough for a rebuild and that the 2t is not competitive with the 4t on the MX track. You seem to believe that without a doubt the 4t is going to blow at 35-70 hrs and when it does it will totally destroy the motor, no sorry not seeing it, i've seen busted pistons that did no damage to the motor other than the piston. But hey, believe what you may.
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i've seen busted pistons that did no damage to the motor other than the piston.
how much did the new piston cost? where did the peaces of the piston go? how did that not damage other things in the motor? how can the rod go up and down with no piston and not damage something? this is hard to believe.
as the rules change the 2t will become more competitive. the 4t has just had to grate of an advantage. yes a motor that is babied will last longer than one that is hammered on. but racing is the hardest thing you can do to a bike. the 4t is definitely more expensive, they cost more to buy and cost more to maintain and really cost more to rebuild.
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Easy on the words there boys. This is all very interresting. I am a new 4-stroke owner and I am not worried. I recognize that this bike will not take neglect like my K5, but then I am a fine mechanic and have never neglected a bike yet. I expect at least 100 hrs or more between valve adjustments. Many get this. If I was back racing it would be less. About the only difference between my K5 routine is the more frequent oil changes but even that is blown a bit out of proportion by some. From what I read some change their oil every ride. My manual suggests 15 hours - I am going to hedge my bets by going 15 hours but running good synthetic. I did have to add an hour meter, which is probably a good thing to have on any bike. Keep the air filter clean and I have no worries.
I can understand that the new 4-strokes aren't for everybody. I have only ridden the bike a few time but already I can tell (other than the newer ergos and suspension) that the 4-stroke power characteristics allow me to put more tractible power the ground (which is the part that counts) that anything I have been on. I think a good example to look at is supercross; tight tracks make me think that light bike weight would be king (as in 2-stroke) but even the privateers are riding 4-strokes for the acceleration/traction factor to clear the jumps with short in-runs. I am sure reapir costs can be astronomical for a grenaded 450 but the same goes for a 2-stroke if you snap a rod and whindmill it through the cases. It is my opinion that for someone who must take his dirt bike to the dealer for maintenance, then a 4-stroke is not for them. I was eavesdropping at my local dealer, and he quoted a guy $400 for brake bleeding and some other misc work - and he wasn't out of line - just the number of hours required at their shop rate. I also notice that many dealers steer customers onto these bikes knowing that they can't maintain them properly. On the flip side I have also seen dealers recommending lawnmower quality 2-cycle oil to owners of new high performance 2-strokes (KX85's), both somewhat underhanded practises.
I have to support Don on the shattered piston thing. I have had that happen to me a number of times where it caused no other damage. I once blew a cam ball-bearing on a 4-stroke 500, took off the sump and managed to reassemble the broken bearing cage parts until I had found them all, replaced the bearing and off to the races - no other damage (yea I was lucky).
I know everyone has opinions and has "heard" about some ugly costs and rebuilds but I like to talk directly to the guys who ride em and race em for some real evidence. So far I think this bike is going to be great and last a long time, but who knows. Maybe in a few years I will be looking for a K5 engine to shoehorn in there while my wife plants flowers in whats left of the 450 engine. But for now I am going to wheelie away with a grin. Cam.
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I agree with alot that is being said .But 40 to 70 hours until a rebuild is no way true. But 3000 grand for just parts to rebuild a 4 stroke is a minimum.Every one I know says if you can do it for that your lucky.
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i have one of the most expensive 2t dirt bikes there is for parts KTM380. if a bomb went off in my motor and i needed everything cases, crank + bearings and rod, new cylinder, head, piston and gaskets. it would be under $2,200
Item # Description Your Price Quantity Subtotal
54730018500 CRANKSHAFT. BEAR STROKE 77 $830.54 $830.54
54730006100 CYLINDER HEAD $103.07 $103.07
54730005244 CYLINDER CPL.W.FLANGE 380'98 $456.00 $456.00
54730007200 II PISTON II CPL. 78,0MM 380'98 $106.99 $106.99
54630000944 ENGINE CASE CPL.W.TRAN.BEAR'98
original partnumber 54630000844
superceeded by 54630000944 $522.89 $522.89
Your Total $2,019.48
+ gaskets.
now put a bomb in a 4t and see how much bigger that list of parts gets.
lets say the 2t and 4t will need a fresh top end at 70 hours, with my expensive KTM its under $150 for piston kit and gaskets, if the cylinder is good
can someone tell me how much it will cost to freshen up a 4t if the cylinder is good?
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This is totally out of hand, how often do 4t's blow up and need everything from cases up, not many that I've seen. Heads, yeah I've seen them crater, but again, most can be traced back to the maintenance or lack of. Knock on wood, I have not had 1 problem personally with any of my 4t's. These are not for everybody, but for those that race seriously, they are a must. I have both and like each for the application they are used, the other issues and it doesn't matter whether it's 2 or 4 stroke a person should learn how to repair them.
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i have one of the most expensive 2t dirt bikes there is for parts KTM380. if a bomb went off in my motor and i needed everything cases, crank + bearings and rod, new cylinder, head, piston and gaskets. it would be under $2,200
Item # Description Your Price Quantity Subtotal
54730018500 CRANKSHAFT. BEAR STROKE 77 $830.54 $830.54
54730006100 CYLINDER HEAD $103.07 $103.07
54730005244 CYLINDER CPL.W.FLANGE 380'98 $456.00 $456.00
54730007200 II PISTON II CPL. 78,0MM 380'98 $106.99 $106.99
54630000944 ENGINE CASE CPL.W.TRAN.BEAR'98
original partnumber 54630000844
superceeded by 54630000944 $522.89 $522.89
Your Total $2,019.48
+ gaskets.
now put a bomb in a 4t and see how much bigger that list of parts gets.
lets say the 2t and 4t will need a fresh top end at 70 hours, with my expensive KTM its under $150 for piston kit and gaskets, if the cylinder is good
can someone tell me how much it will cost to freshen up a 4t if the cylinder is good?
Your right you do have one of the most expensive brands of bike to repair.
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Not everyone is mechanicaly inclined....I've seen guys that are A class riders but can't use a pair of pliers. They are left to pay shop rate for repairs. A guy I race with in the vintage class rides a KX 450 in the +50 modern class also, he had 9 hrs. on his 450 and the crank broke. Good rider and is good about maintenance...Factorys have whittled away at iron and aluminum to the point where they won't last as long as a 2 stk. and all in the attempt to make us content with 4 stroke perfomance. Just look at the shirt-less pistons in a 4 stroke for instance, You could do it to a 2 stk. or a Chey 350 but the reliability goes out the window in lieu of performance....km
KXcam22 ; We are just grown men having a grown man debate here..Don't fear we mean no harm..we'er just stating facts and discussing observations made......km
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The bottom line, and I think we will all agree the 4 stroke is more expensive to maintain, the only debate is how much it will cost and what is likely to break. The 06 KX's did have piston pin issues, kawi stood behind those.
Texas champ, I wpuld of contacted kawi if I was the guy you raced with, they have been very good about repairing failures.
big belly bob, I just put a piston in my 450, with gaskets it cost me less than $100, but we have a deal with Wiesco, retail prices are about $150 piston and another $35 for gaskets.
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Don , My friend rides for a Kawasaki house in N.W. Houston...They hooked him up and it didn't cost a penny except for service items like oil,filter and coolant.
My Husky 400 has won me 3 Texas vintage titles in 4 years in those 4 I've been through 2 piston/ring and bore jobs...I did replace the clutch because a the plates were aluminum and it required an oil change after every race..I have a full steel unit now and I can go 2-3 races on the same oil..the bottom end hasn't been opened in 4 almost 5 years now....Ahhh the good ol' days....km
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KXcam I hate to burst your bubble but crf450 and 250 and most modern 4t motocross bikes need valve adjustments all the time 100 hours is an astronomical amount of time expect your modern four stroke bike to go with out an adjustment. a lot of them need the valves adjusted as soon as they are broken in. I do valve adjustments on these bikes for people all the time. I did one yesterday it was an 08 crf250, it is the first bike this guy has owned in twenty years he's not exactly on the rev limiter all the time. The bike had three tanks of gas through it, IN valves were .003 and .005 EX valves were .009 and .009 spec is IN .005 and EX is.011 pluss or minus .001. Yamaha recomends a new piston and rings in their 4t every thirty hours alot of people put in new valve springs at the same time do to the fact they lose tension. Titainium valves like to lose their heads after so many hours regardless of how well you maintain your bike and should be changed out as prevenitive maintenance like two stroke pistons. I had valve seats cut by a local shop recently(Baker cylinder head) the guy was happy the head was not desroyed by valve failer like nine out of ten heads he does, that was his words. A lot of you will think I'm full of it and want to argue about the things I have stated and there will be no convincing you until the day it happens to you, alot of things in life are like that.
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on the yzf motor after 10 hour if you have to adjust the intake more then .002 you better get those valves out of the motor now. i never blow my yzf but i changed the oil evry race day and geared it right and it had 50 hour on it when i sold it and it was due for new valves.
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A lot of you will think I'm full of it and want to argue about the things I have stated and there will be no convincing you until the day it happens to you, alot of things in life are like that.
How very true that statement is. I guess we are all like that to a certain extent.
-G
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I don't think that cleaning your air filter or changing your oil regularly can make any of us immune to these sorts of failures.
http://met-tech.com/motorsports.htm
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I agree with most of whats been said, 4t are much more labor intensive and more expensive, what I don't agree with is the statement that after 35-70 hrs of use it's going to cost me 1/2 the cost of my bike to repair it .
Knowing what I know, I accept the fact that it's going to cost me more money to maintain and more time doing pm's, in return I have a bike that runs really well and can be competitive.
Even if we weren't using our bikes for MX, I'd still have one for a playbike as well as the the 500's, it is easy to go fast on the 4t.
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Not everyone is mechanicaly inclined....I've seen guys that are A class riders but can't use a pair of pliers. They are left to pay shop rate for repairs.
Tell me about it! :cry:
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This is totally out of hand, how often do 4t's blow up and need everything from cases up, not many that I've seen. Heads, yeah I've seen them crater, but again, most can be traced back to the maintenance or lack of. Knock on wood, I have not had 1 problem personally with any of my 4t's. These are not for everybody, but for those that race seriously, they are a must. I have both and like each for the application they are used, the other issues and it doesn't matter whether it's 2 or 4 stroke a person should learn how to repair them.
how often do 2t's blow up, i just put some numbers out there for comparison. my bike is a 98 and its only on its second piston still stock jug, head, and bottom end. and it gets rode hard, only seeing the upper RPM's most of the time. so the cost for 10 years of riding, it has had a couple air filters replaced, normal oil changes, 4 sets of rings, and 1 full top end with a new piston. and if my 368cc 2t @ 221lbs had 08 suspenders it would be very competitive agents the 450's and it would still give the 450 a big advantage in cc's. as the cc advantage comes down i think people will start racing 2t's, especially the amateur guys that don't have that factory money
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I don't own a 4t at this moment, but have ridden a few YZ450F'S and I'll be buying my first YZ450F this year. I ride and work with a group of guy's and all they ride is 4t and they never complained nor have I seen any failures on their bikes. I know 4-5 bikes is a small sample but I ride with these same guy's most weekends. My boy's 2004 Yamaha TTR-90 is going strong with no valve adjustments or top end failures. :-D :-D :-D
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My boy's 2004 Yamaha TTR-90 is going strong with no valve adjustments or top end failures.
i don't think that helps. the old style 4t's were very reliable, xr650's and stuff. i had a 200x that ran forever but that stuff don't count. its the new style 4t racing motors that have every part as small as possible to save weight, and pumped up passed the point of reliability in question.
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My boy's 2004 Yamaha TTR-90 is going strong with no valve adjustments or top end failures.
i don't think that helps. the old style 4t's were very reliable, xr650's and stuff. i had a 200x that ran forever but that stuff don't count. its the new style 4t racing motors that have every part as small as possible to save weight, and pumped up passed the point of reliability in question.
I was just trying to add some humor. :-D :-D
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honestly, it comes down to what you want to ride and what your willing to deal with, bottom line, they're all good, it comes down to personal preference. Admittedly a catastrophic failure whether 2 or 4 stroke would be expensive, reality is that catastrophic failures are pretty rare, and if its a new bike the manuf. usually takes care of it. As BDI said earlier, you have to do the PM, you do that and you have a pretty trouble free bike.
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As BDI said earlier, you have to do the PM, you do that and you have a pretty trouble free bike.
i don't remember him saying that. i do remember him saying
Titainium valves like to lose their heads after so many hours regardless of how well you maintain your bike and should be changed out as prevenitive maintenance like two stroke pistons.
and saying
I don't think that cleaning your air filter or changing your oil regularly can make any of us immune to these sorts of failures.
http://met-tech.com/motorsports.htm
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I have a honda CRF450x and It is easily the best bike I have ever owned. The freedom this bike gives me is awsome, I can leave my house and as long as I can keep linking gas stations I can ride forever no two stroke oil needed. I try not to kill my bike with maintenance, I don't clean my filter every time I ride, I don't power wash the hell out of my bike every time I ride, I do keep My valves adjusted, I do keep my oil toped off and I change It when I think It's been in there long enough. I also live life on the rev limiter and I will be changing out my valves when I notice the bike wanting valve adjustments to frequently. Because I do my own valve adjustments hopefully I will see that train coming down the track, no matter what kind of bike you own you should always keep your ear on the rail. :-D
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i have a 07 yfz450 and it is easily one of the worst bikes i have ever owed. had to pull the cab 6 times just to get the thing so it would not die when you gave it the gas, this is new off the showroom floor. and when the time comes to pull the head i will be looking for a 2t to putt in it for the same price of rebuilding the head.
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. Titainium valves like to lose their heads after so many hours regardless of how well you maintain your bike and should be changed out as prevenitive maintenance like two stroke pistons.
Bigbellybob do you remember this statement, the one I was referring to?
You and others have had bad experiences with the 4t, thats to bad, I think they are good bikes and are alot of fun to ride, but at the end of the day it's to each his own. I find people either love them or hate them, I ride only KX's so I can't talk about other brands, but I'm sold on them. They have not cost me a dime, other than PM's, now having said that they'll probably both blow up tomorrow
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don46 yes i remember i just quoted it 2 posts ago. and that's my point i think it was $80 a valve, that's some costly PM's. i really hope your bikes don't blow up tomorrow. i was on the fence for some time and was really thinking of getting a new 4t but found that i couldn't afford to pay the payment and still pay for the PM's. the power that the manufacturers are getting from these new 4t's is unbelievable. 15 years ago no one would have believed you if you told them a 450 4t would put it to a 250 2t. i really believe that the 2t and the 4t have switched roles in the reliability department.
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I'd like to ride a 450 just to see the difference.
Actually HOW different is the 450 from the 250 2stroke? Truly, does the 250 not compare powerwise?
I rode a 250 4 and it was weak, but haven't thrown a leg over a 450 yet... I was very impressed with the rear shock on the bike at the time, though. It was a Suzy from around '04 or '05.
If I had the money, KX500AF... I'd even be happy with the ATK700... dreams...
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In a drag race I don't think the 450 is faster than the 250 2t, the 4t puts the power to the ground better and has better low end torque, but if you can twist it and hold on the 2 t will climb with the 4t.
I'm not necessarily a 4 stroke guy, I have 4 2t and 3 4t and have bought a new 06 250 motor off ebay that I'm going to big bore, who knows maybe that will be the ticket, the chassis is great, I don't like the power delivery of the 250.
the other conclusion, nothing is cheap anymore, diesel fuel is $4.20 a gallon and probably more in other parts of the country, if you wan to play, you've got to pay.
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yea racing ant cheap. i think the 450 has a big advantage over the 250 2t. they have more torque and that's why they put more to the ground and most make more peak hp too. but with the 2t getting back some of the cc advantage they are bridging the gap. the new ktm 144sx is a good example. it is not winning a lot but is very close.
http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=350AB56EC8BB41F49929CD8E1737A06E (http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=350AB56EC8BB41F49929CD8E1737A06E)
i think we could see a ktm 285sx next.
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I'd like to ride a 450 just to see the difference.
Actually HOW different is the 450 from the 250 2stroke? Truly, does the 250 not compare powerwise?
I rode a 250 4 and it was weak.....
thats how I felt when I rode my first ever 4-stroke mx bike I was embarresed to tell the guy what I really thought and this was me coming off a 2001 kx125 thats had never been open even for a new piston!!...that thing was a turd...now I did ride a 07 kxf450 and it was a power house and like someone said I actually do believe my bike "could" technically win in a staigt out drag race(I actually put money on a drag race with him but he refused) on a track it would slaughter me but then again thats what they are designed for, winning races and thats it, not lasting 10 years on the same piston, or starting easier, and running cooler or what ever you guys are complaining about they are full out RACE BIKES
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Hi guys, For four pages everybody has been stating facts, not opinions, and kayx250 hit the nail on the head. The new 4t's (KXF, CRF-R, YZF, RM-Z) are full on race machines. Technology on par with F-1 racing. Does anybody here care to imagine what the maint and repair costs are on a Honda F-1 engine? I know a lot of you guys are around my age (45) and raced in the seventies. Do you remember doing top ends after every race on your 2 smokes? If you didn't you weren't competitive. I don't recall thinking how cheap it was. Relativity gentlemen. 4 strokes are here and here to stay and 2 strokes will soon only be in museums. I am not a 4t cheerleader, I prefer 2t, that is why I ride the KX5 and that is why I was just discussing the KX 250 with Don46. However only a fool thinks that 2t's are going to make a come back just because of their maintenance costs. The EPA couldn't care less about the maintenance costs on racing motorcycles and they d*mn sure don't care about our leisure time hobby. 2t's might well be available in the future, but we all know that it will not be for retail. You will have to be a race team or you won't touch one. It has been a good 4 page read and everybody has stated the obvious and some not so obvious facts. So now lets all go and buy what we can afford, get lots of dirt/sand in our teeth, ride em til they break, fix em and get more dirt/sand in our teeth before the Gov takes it all away from us. Keep em roostin boys!!! :-D :-D
Kev
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well I officially can vouch for the little debate here....4-stroke for the win.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/791726/4502.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/791726/4501.jpg)
I have a 2003 kx250 with a 2005 kx250 engine swapped in and I just bought a 2008 kx450f and the 450 wins hands down it handles better, pulls harder, hooks up better, breaks faster, I can ride a wheelie in 5th for like a full mile now becuase I have so much more control of the power and the best part it it makes me feel way more confident riding on it the one and only complaint so far is it is EXTREMELY loud
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Fully indoctrinated. Drinkin the Kool-aid. :-o
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Still liking it! Now that I am more used to it I can use the advantages of the power delivery to go faster. It's a stable platform that inspires mega confidence. I can get one kick starts, hot or cold most times. I am used to kicking the KX500 so this thing is like kicking over a vespa scooter. Stalling is the only major issue and I am down to about 1 per hour of riding. In the same situations and terrain the KX500 would stall zero. Frustrating, since this type of flameout stall sometimes takes a dozen kicks to restart - then you have to catch up and re-pass. For really tight riding the KX is vastly superior - 4strokes just don't lug the same. My KX brakes were excellent so no real improvement there. The real place that I find it superior to the KX500 is comming out of corners. When the KX hits the powerband you get a fair bit of wheelspin (and excitement) just about the time you get to the acceleration bumps. This makes it diffficult to control while maintaining the acceleration (but it is also why we love 500's). The 450 power allows me to use more throttle in the corner so my exit speed is much, much higher and then the different power delivery makes the acceleration bumps kind of vanish. In a typical single track corner I can easily gain 10-20' on the exit on most people I am chasing. I am still not a convert but becoming a big fan. Cam.
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...they dont manufacture a good enough chest protector and enough tear-offs to stay behind a KX-500 very long...
Great quote!
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I owned an '01 KTM 450MXC and now have a '96 KX500. The KTM was heavier and felt TONS heavier. The ergos were a little thinner, and it was a little less effort to stuff into a turn... The suspenion is not MILEs apart like some people are saying.
If wheelspin is an issue for you on the K5.. then it's very likely that all ya gotta do is just click-up to the next higher gear and make use of that 500 grunt.
It's strange how some people on here are soo stuck on the concept that BECAUSE it's a 4t you believe it's faster for you in situation X, Y or Z.
I will agree that probably the MAJORITY of your average Joe riders can go faster on a 4t because the power comes on in a more linear fashion so they don't have to learn as much finesse and the fine-art of clutch work fishing for traction. And they don't have that yummy concentrated "hit" of power centered around a certain rev-range as 2t's are more usually prone to do.
Personally... I've found that the 2t style of power... and having much-less of the compression braking affect in the long run teaches me to ride faster. it's like you sorta are forced to learn how to enter into corners coming in hotter than you would on the 4t. I don't quite know how to put it.
And puh-lease!!!... ANY 250cc 2t can murder a 450 4t any day of the week.
Yeah... sure... if you put a total SQUID behind the controls that's not going to happen... but any reasonably competent Vet on a 250 2t will eventually slip past a guy on a 450 4t.
And comparing the 450 4t with a K5.. HA!!! There is just NO COMPARISON!
Phew... it makes me drool to try to imagine just how bad-a$$ one of that KX500AF's must be. Putting the K5 BEAST into a one of the new-style nimble, narrow frames.. now THAT would be something to BEHOLD!!!
As for why you are only seeing 4t's on the starting line at SuperCross events... DUH!!!! The companies are dumping all kindsa R & D money to go this 4t route since they fear the EPA eventually will stomp-out 2t's... not only that.. they know they can make a boat-load more money at the dealership with the increased maintenance service costs
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I owned an '01 KTM 450MXC and now have a '96 KX500. The KTM was heavier and felt TONS heavier. The ergos were a little thinner, and it was a little less effort to stuff into a turn... The suspenion is not MILEs apart like some people are saying.
If wheelspin is an issue for you on the K5.. then it's very likely that all ya gotta do is just click-up to the next higher gear and make use of that 500 grunt.
It's strange how some people on here are soo stuck on the concept that BECAUSE it's a 4t you believe it's faster for you in situation X, Y or Z.
I will agree that probably the MAJORITY of your average Joe riders can go faster on a 4t because the power comes on in a more linear fashion so they don't have to learn as much finesse and the fine-art of clutch work fishing for traction. And they don't have that yummy concentrated "hit" of power centered around a certain rev-range as 2t's are more usually prone to do.
Personally... I've found that the 2t style of power... and having much-less of the compression braking affect in the long run teaches me to ride faster. it's like you sorta are forced to learn how to enter into corners coming in hotter than you would on the 4t. I don't quite know how to put it.
And puh-lease!!!... ANY 250cc 2t can murder a 450 4t any day of the week.
Yeah... sure... if you put a total SQUID behind the controls that's not going to happen... but any reasonably competent Vet on a 250 2t will eventually slip past a guy on a 450 4t.
And comparing the 450 4t with a K5.. HA!!! There is just NO COMPARISON!
Phew... it makes me drool to try to imagine just how bad-a$$ one of that KX500AF's must be. Putting the K5 BEAST into a one of the new-style nimble, narrow frames.. now THAT would be something to BEHOLD!!!
As for why you are only seeing 4t's on the starting line at SuperCross events... DUH!!!! The companies are dumping all kindsa R & D money to go this 4t route since they fear the EPA eventually will stomp-out 2t's... not only that.. they know they can make a boat-load more money at the dealership with the increased maintenance service costs
I wasn't going to reply to this but in the end felt compelled to comment, and I might add that I have a 06 250 2t, 07 450 4t and aluminum framed 500, my son has raced nationals so he's no slouch on the track. The 500 is great in the wide open, hillclimbs, desert sand, the 250 is a fun bike trail riding, the 450 is a track bike, having said that there is no way equal riders the 250 will run with the 450 on the track, you can talk about finesse whatever, it won't happen. When yamaha came out with the 250f and the rest of the brands still had 2t, you had to have a better rider to compete with the 4t, on a local level mediocre riders purchased 250f's and all the sudden became top level riders. There are some tracks where a 250 can do well, momentum tracks like Mammoth Mountain, but it seems there are a awful lot of slick hard tracks out there and the 250 won't do it .
I might ask what you basis for comparsion is? do you have these bikes? or are you just assuming? Don't get me wrong I like them all, but they are purpose built machines. Maybe in the Vet class and even beginner classes the 250 can be competitive, not in the Pro class.
I don't like the KTM suspension, so your probably right the 500 and you 01 450 were probably not that far off. Nothing personal to you KTM owners, that's just my opinion.
One other comment, I think I like the 500 in the 05 250f steel frame better than the 450 aluminum frame, it feels much smaller and seems to handle better, can't quantify that just going by feel.
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I might ask what you basis for comparsion is? do you have these bikes? or are you just assuming? Don't get me wrong I like them all, but they are purpose built machines. Maybe in the Vet class and even beginner classes the 250 can be competitive, not in the Pro class.
Thats what I was going to ask.....I actually have both a 03 kx 250 with a 2005 engine, and a 2008 kx450f and I can tell you there aint no way in hell with equally compitent riders on both bikes would a 250 win.... thats the whole reason I bought one I talked all the crap about how 2-strokes were better then I raced him and he dusted my a$$ and he made me a believer if I liked it or not then I took my bone stock 450 to the beach to drag race at pismo and was slaughtering modded 250 2-strokes left and right while I was just having fun riding a wheelie not even getting into 5th and they still couldnt touch me
I have a feeling all these people who "claim" a 250 would smoke a 450 havent even ridden a new 450..
also like I said I still have a 2-stroke and when I feel like fishtailing for miles i take it but if I just want to rip i'll take the fo fiddy
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then I took my bone stock 450 to the beach to drag race at pismo and was slaughtering modded 250 2-strokes left and right while I was just having fun riding a wheelie not even getting into 5th and they still couldnt touch me
I have a buddy I used to ride with that took his bone stock '95 Yamaha WR250 2t (no, NOT a YZ... a WR!) to the dunes with an 8 cup paddle on it and whooped the snot out of a paddled crf450 and a YZ426 across the flats. Wasn't even close. Granted I have never had the oportunity to ride a shiny new 4t and would love to have one so I have no gripe about them other than the maintenance and cost for rebuilds... but I have ridden sand for years and no bike makes power and comes out of the hole and then runs wide open on top like a 2t across the flats. If you were wheelieing and not touching 5th then those were either squids you were racing or those bikes had issues. If you did beat a stock 250 on your stock 450, both in good running condition and with similar riding abilities then it would still be a d**n close race, not wheelieing in a gear lower. However, I would give the 4t full advantage on a track.... just not wide open across the flats.
-G
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theoritically my 450 tops out at 83 in 4th and 95 in 5th gear and since you abviously called me out I'll just have to get a vid since im going to pismo this 4th of july
and I doubt 15+ 250 riders were squids
trust me on this I have both I even had my 250 bored and ported with 54 rwhp I think the 450 would still take it at pismo becuase of its gearing
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I haven't ridden many 250 2t that had a top end that made me sit up and take notice. The KX500 makes me take notice and my new 450 4t also does. It's deceptive but there is a lot of power there, and it gets to the ground quite easily. I love 2-strokes but I will not believe that a 250 2t can compete with a 450 4t in almost any venue. The HP and other physical advantages of the 4t are too great. In many of these "instances" that people describe, rider skill comes into play. I can't count the number of times I dusted off superior bikes in tight single track on my 92 K5. I told them it was all the bike - but it wasn't. When I look at the starting line of any MX or supercross even the lowest budget privateers are running 4t bikes and accepting the higher cost to be competetive. All I know is that on my 450 I can go really fast, really easily. Cam.
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hey guys im going to throw my 2 cents in too , i race my 2000 k5 in mx here in nz in the vets class 35 + im the only guy riding a 2 stroke. all 450 fs the 4,s hook up way better than my big banger, i find it very frustrating in the corners they hook up and my big 5 just breaks loose. raced last sunday sitting 4th pushing for third cracked the gas on in a right hander, very wet , she step out left then right then left the ka pow im down. throttle control i dont have. can run the 4 strokes down on the straights but for hook up and cornering the 4,s have it. but hey i still love me big 2 banger :evil:.
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I have a 1994 kx 500 and a 2007 ktm 300 xc-w. my 2 cents:
in mid 1990's apparently people thought 2 stroke 500's were to powerful so industry stopped making them. then we decided 250 two strokes didn't have enough power so rather than just making a 300(or something like that) 2 stroke we went in different direction and came out with a more powerful four stroke with all the complexities, cost, etc (with the help from the AMA rule book allowing for 450's in 250 class based on ????). Just becasue it was possible to get a 4 stroke lighter in weight and with good power the downside as stated in earlier posts makes me wondr if it was worth it. hindsight maybe industry should have kept with a 2 stroke and just used a higher displacement to keep all the advantges of a 2 stroke.
I remember old magazine tests that would say one bike was more torquier than another and sometimes they would score more or less. if we just needed more HP and torques you can get that with a 2 stroke with larger displacment, flywheels etc.
my point is in the debate on 2 stroke vs 4 stroke is that 2 strokes are better if you compare apples to apples. a 250 two stroke is down on horsepower and torque to a 450 which is why the AMA should revist its resaons behind its displacment limits and use something reasonable to we the consumers have a real choice. if we had 300 two strokes (or whatever the magic number is) that has the same horspower and torque the two stroke would be the better choice becasue it would always be lighter, easier to work on, cheaper, etc. 450 four stroke vs 450 two stroke, 250 four stroke vesus 250 two stoke are not fair comparisons so its not a 4 stroke vs two stroke debate. its the displacment debate between the 2. Dirt rider just did a 2 stroke vs 4 stroke test at the sand between 450 and 250 two stroke. how about a 500 2 stroke versus 450 four stroke. is either fair? consumers need real fair choices and let market decide.
Now we hear in some ametuer classes they will allow 250 two strokes race with 250 four strokes. is that fair? the 250 two strokes have the horsepower advantange so does that mean everyone will by 250 two strokes and the 250 four strokes will go away??? no our kids will go from mini's to 250 two strokes?? LOL seems AMA needs to get so realistic displacments. but probably to late.
one last rant: i keep hearing about EPA laws killing two strokes. where is the exact EPA law or is it just rumor?
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this year in nz we are running 250 2,s against the 250 4,s in the national titles first was a 250 4 then 2nd 3rd 4th 5th were 2 stokes, it was a real eye opener as there were bugger all points in it, i think they won two rounds each, the 2,s on the nice loamy tracks and the 4,s when they were slippery. in my class the vets you can ride anything, im looking at getting a klx 450 as i like the e start side of it, but i will be keeping my k5.
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seems that if magzines tested 500 2TS vs 450 4 st they would say the 450's would win due to superior handling and ignore horsepower. when they test 450's against 250 two strokes then its all about power and forget handling so 450's win. same with 250 fours against 125 two strokes. but occaisonally they say 250 four strokes beat 450 four strokes since handling is better.
basically when four strokes are comapred to two strokes the magaizines say power is everything but if compared to a 2 stroke with some power then they say handling is everything. its very confusing but bottom line is its the rider and how comfortable they are on the bike. i ride senior class so more choices
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I miss my old local MX track where we had GP races, any bike, any engine size all raced together. I was not unusual to a 125cc 2t to win the race. Cam.
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who would win in a straight drag race? or say a race up comp hill at the dunes? And by how many bike lengths?
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depends on the riders!!!!!!!
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if equal riders i would think the bike with most horspower would win up a sand hill.
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I have to post this....I originally was not going to post this becuase I know im going to be called a liar or whatever but here it goes while at pismo dunes this last weekend I dragged a few tricked out 450 quads( one in particular bored, camed, piped, jetted..ect., but it did have a stock swingarm, scared the crap out of me when we both took off and at about 3/4 down the track I look at my side and he was right there!?!!?!?? :-o ) and a couple 250 2-strokes and some other 450 4-strokes and low and behold I spot a kx500 about 300 feet away and I just have to race him so I haul arse over to him and pull up right next to him on the starting line of the drag strip at pismo and I hold up 5 fingers and ask "Is that a 500?" and he just plainly said Yep.... so I said lets have at it and we both pull down the slope and rip off and me being all nervous about racing a 500 I gassed the crap out of it and get a little squirly off the line and he gets about 1-2 bikes ahead of me off the start and we both pick up a tiny wheelie down the whole track thru the woops and I creep on him the whole 2-4th gear pull thru the woops and at the end I had about a 1 bike lead....
Now I know I have to account that I dont know the condition of the 500...like how it was actually running, what mods it had, if he sucked at dragging ect....ect all I know for sure was it was a kx500 it had a pipe and silencer and a 10 cupped paddle...also I have a feeling the suspension helped me get down the track quicker compared to 15 year old suspension but what happened...happened.
well theres my experience....let the flaming commence :roll:
Also I forgot to mention but after I first raced him he signaled me over to race again and about 100 down the strip my bike popped out of gear and I almost endowed over the handle bars and he jetted off and I didnt see him again after that :?
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I missed what you were riding... ?
-G
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a bone stock 2008 kx450f
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traction is a big deal... sounds like you did great ..thanks for the story
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if you raced less than 300 feet he probabley wasn't hooking up yet even though he pulled you out of the hole (2nd gear launch). its simple . your atv 355 lbs and about 38 hp . stock kx500 / 225 lbs 55 hp . stewarts kx 500 /100 crank horse+. on the dyno it pulls 48 mph to 98 in under 4 seconds straped down with a 225 lb rider sitting on it . it just wont hook up till your topped in 4th gear sometimes 5th .i out ran a honda NSX CAR once in my 3 banger geo metro . he had his chance but he didn't hit the gas. :lol: :lol: :|
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I guess that is EXACTLY why I originally didnt want to post what happend........
Thats nice stewart has 100+ hp....I didnt race stewart I didnt claim too???? :? Im not afraid to admit that his bike would kill about 99% of anything at the beach including me at any given time but I guess that is what makes me different from the majority of you guys...I can admit when I get beat and trust me i've been beat by bikes and quads both 2-stroke and 4-stroke
also who said I had a quad??? I have a kx450f which has 53 hp stock not 38 and it weighs 220lbs not 355lbs (everybody launches in 2nd in the sand) and I dont know what gear he was in but I was almost at the limiter in 4th when we both let off at the end of the strip... I guess next time I'll just tell the guy screw it lets just plow thru the fence at the end of the strip at 80mph and keep going until we reach bakersfield and THEN see who wins. LLOL
I hope traction wasnt an issue considering he was running a 10 paddle with 2 more hp and I was running an 8 paddle :roll:
and about the 500 not getting traction until 5th gear???? LMFAOROF I can tell you've never ridden in the sand or atleast have never dragged in the sand...see when your picking up a wheelie that means you have an overabundance of traction not a lack of it. you kind of got that backwards LOL
I guess I get it now my bike is a 3 banger geo metro and a kx500 is a NSX that wasnt giving it gas........lol typical ricer response.
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soory i thought you were on a quad . and i wasn't putting you down . just sheading some light on things . as for not hooking in 4 in the sand yea . just 2 weekends ago we were in little sahara . loose sand . had to move to the back of the seat to get the front end up but it was coming on over if i stayed there. now on asphalt . just easy on the gas comes up , to much it spins the tire ( street bike tire).four stroke 2 stroke we are all here to have fun .
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I like riding my kx500 but it is not about how much power you have. It is how well you can handle it. You can probably ride much better than the other fellow on the kx500 and that alone can win you a race. I am a weekend rider and not a racer so people on cr250s can scream by me on some parts of the trails as I am not experienced enough. We do not have that much sand over here, but there is one trail I ride on that is in a sandy area, and I can say that is some wicked stuff. Once you get use to the sandy trails they are fun to ride.
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You know It's also hard to say how well the K-5 was running or how well the guy could ride. When I had my gsxr1100 I got embarrassed by a gsxr750 because my carbs were shot. My buddy Joey blew my doors on my cr500 with his crf450 because it was time for a new piston and my bike was down on comp. My CR500 was stock and I was consintantly beating a guy at the hill, his cr500 had every bolt on hop up made. the last time I was at the dunes I was racing a guy on a quad that had an r1 engine in it and I kept beating the guy by a bike length then the guy who owned it hopped on and started beating me by two bike lengths. The new 450s run very well and could easily beat a stock kx500 if the bike was not tuned right, tired or the guy riding it was not that skilled. I have gone from loosing to winning with a main jet change.
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also depends on the gearing he was running. if he had his geared for desert and not climing and depends on rider skill etc. if everything was geared the same (i mean both for hills) you could ride his bike and check your time to top of a hill then switch bikes and get your bikes time to top and see differnece. i used to do that with my brothers cr500 and my kx500. we would race dumont competition hill and then switch to see if it was the rider or bike. with both stock moto gearing he would pull mine by half a bike length regarles of who was riding it. my bike was faster and more stable however when we were cruising the wide open desert regardless of rider.
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I agree with all that. My 450 is a wicked weapon that makes me feel like superman. It will NOT beat a KX500 in a drag, regardless of conditions. It is a lot of fun though. Cam.
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So what is your guys reasoning on why im lying :roll: becuase it has 2 more hp...or just the fact that its your guys favorite dirtbike???
I just want to know your guys reasoning as to why i'm a complete liar.
Also why dont you feel your 450 would ever beat a 500 regardless of condition?? what bike do you have?
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I never said you are lying and I don't think any one else did.I think what you say is very possible Infact I see it happen all the time at the dunes. I think 150 to 165 pound riders on 450s tend to be some of the fastest bikes at the hill. Weight is everything and it all depends on how the cards are stacked. If you figure 7 pounds is one horse, and say for example a 450 makes 58 and a 500 makes 65 thats like the 500 weighs 49 pounds less then the 450. Now put a 175 pound rider on the 450 and 225 pound rider on the 500 and you are going to have a tight race infact the guy on the 500 is probably going to loose do to the fact that the heavy guy on the 500 has more mass to get out of the hole and start moving. At the hill most people ask "what have you done to your bike?" I never ask that, I could give a s**t less about that, I always ask how much do you weigh?. Now let me talk some s**t my 500 will destroy a 450 with a 150 pound rider on it, at the hill by half a hill with me on it weighing in at 225 naked. I could take a kx500 engine apart and do nothing more then machine work and put it back together buying nothing but gaskets and make it so much faster then a 450 it would cost a thousand dollars in cams and big bore stuff to catch back up.
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....... It will NOT beat a KX500 in a drag, regardless of conditions.......
Thats a direct quote 2 post right above the one you just posted :roll: If he believes what he said...im a complete liar becuase I contradict what he said..... and also I dont give a flying s**t what you have done to your kx500 or what stewart has done to his 500, I can bet they are fast as s**t and would humiliate me, I didnt race you OR stewart and like I already posted before, I never claimed too so quit bringing up how fast your modded 500's are this is supposed to be a 450 vs 500 thread not a "70hp 450 vs 80hp 500 thread" or a god d**n stock 450 vs 100rwhp kx500 thread........go race your stock kx500 vs a stock 450 and post the results win or lose it dosent matter......thats all I shared when somebody asked was my stock 450 vs a 500 and all hell breaks loose.....
I raced a 500 and beat it and now all the other 500 riders are getting butt hurt and threatining me with there modded 500s lmao
"Hey Jonathan beat a 500!!! LETS GET HIM!!!!!!11!!1!1one!!11"
This has got to be BY FAR the most opinionated forum i've ever been on bar none.
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WoW you are a little up tight :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You need to take it easy :lol: :lol:. All I'm saying is how detuned the 500 is. But any way I didn'nt jump you atleast I didn't think so. I really don't think kxcam was calling you a lier. crf450r is what he rides and I think he stated his bike would not beat a kx500. I also think I tried to say that I believed you I see it all the time. Drag racing dirt bikes is my hobby I see all kinds of Bikes loose to all kinds of other Bikes you would not expect. I'ts almost like your looking for a fight or maybe you had to much caffeine this morning or somthing. By the way how much do you weigh?
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I didnt mean to blow up that much but its just tiresome coming on here and if someone post something and they dont like it, its complete blasphemy..... or it could never happend.....it just gets frustrating.
And about the potential I believe you...I think I read that stewart had something like 100rwhp and thats badass.....honestly I dont think I could harness all that even in a strait line let alone on a course
Like I said im not claiming to beat 150hp banshees.....In fact the very last thing I raced at the beach was a yfz450 with an extended swingarm, cams, ported, other bolt ons and nitrous and I raced him at first with no nitrous and it was almost a complete tie I couldnt pass him and he couldnt pass me so he stopped and told me he was going to use his nitrous and he dusted the living hell out of me with it and I was still happy cause I got to race..... the only thing was my mouth was packed of of sand but I was still smiling cuase it was fun.
all I said is what happend in my experience when someone asked
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Thats refreshing someone who can loose it and then bring it back. I know some times I want to reach through the computer and grab someone by the throught and jab my thumb in their eye. I have a hard time letting go of that feeling. I think part of the problem is you expected to be attacked from the get go your very first line in your post said that. But anyway how much do you weigh and I'm glad your not angry anymore it's not healthy.
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145-150 naked :-o
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145 pounds on a 450 you should be kicking everyones ass in a drag race. If I had to race you I would be giving up 13 horse right off the top just do to the weight difference. I would say that the average 500 rider is a 200 pounder if not more. I bet the kx500 you were racing ran just fine. Shoot you want to come to the dunes and ride my bike I bet we could make some money. It would go like this "hay!! I bet you $500.00 my dirt bike will blow the doors off your 1000 horse Ls powered sand rail." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: The problem is no one would take us up on it.
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if had had the cash for a 1000hp rail throwing $500 down on a race would be nothing. seeing as im poor ill race you for a beer but i get to use a throttle jockey too.
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You still owe me a beer from the last time we raced :-D
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ok will you do double or nothing?
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were are you guys located at??? I want to see some high hp bikes run :evil:
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ok will you do double or nothing?
OK but were not racing for no d**n Keystones!!! O-ya were in NV.
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You guys ever go to dumont dunes??
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Only for about the last 12 years :-D. What about you?.
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lol i've only gone like 3-4 times but im dieing to go again...the weak ass hills they got at pismo dunes are boring I want to climb some monster hills...you plan on going anytime soon??? :evil:
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I would love to go but It's not really in the cards right now. :cry:
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Having owned a K5 98 for several years, a kx450 07 from new, I thought I put my two cents in, mind you I slipped a 500 motor in a kx 250 01 Frame.
In a drag race on slippery conditions are about even, but surface's with more traction the 500 pulls away from 3rd on wards, even in soft sand.and I've tried this with a YZ 450 06 and had the same results.( Riders evenly matched)
I find Kx 450's heavy to ride compared to the 250/500 hybrid bike. :-D :-D
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I totaly agree KXDINO! I found the same to be true with between my kx450 and my 500af (07 chassis).
The AF is 6 LBS lighter and the CG feels lower.
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I'm the new guy here but what the hell, with my countless years on both 2 and 4 strokes I'll put in my $2.02 cents in. :-D
Maintinence wise there is a quantum leap in cost. Two strokes are way cheaper to maintain than NEWER 4 strokes. Todays 4 strokes are aimed at the factory sx/mx racers who have mechanics who are paid big bucks to tear down the bike and rebuild it every race. Mr. and Mrs. "don't know squat about bike mechanics" are gonna give 3 mortgage payments to have maintanence done on all the families bikes by qualified techs. On the other hand I've owned and raced old XR600's, the old KLX650 (the one that came out in 93 and weighed 3 tons), and a DR350 for a short time that I almost never had to touch. Older 4strokes would last forever with almost no maintanence as long as there were no big engine mods made (remember the Honda XR680 they built for the 1992 baja 1000 to compete with big green? That bike ate itself from the inside out to death). But those older 4 strokes were aimed at the families out for trail riding fun. MX, SX, Desert, Enduro, GP's, etc, were dominated by 2 strokes, with the exception of Scott Summers' XR600. But there is a good example, Scotts XR motor was in virtually stock form and would last through an atom bomb explosion.
Then a few events took place. Team Green pulled out of Baja due to the death of my good friend Danny Hamel and Honda began to dominate the great race which also inspired the birth of the new and improved XR650. Yamaha built a prototype YZM400 for a young man named Doug Henry to compete with in the SX/MX series. Many factors such as our good friends the EPA forced the evolution of the 4 stroke. The factories looked to the future and dumped large amounts of cash into the development of COMPETATIVE 4 strokes leaving less money for the development of the 2 stroke. However that development like I said is aimed at the large factory racers. And for those of us who want the great handleing advanced machines that our factory hero's ride then we had better be prepared to fork out the cash to pay the "4 stroke overhead". But don't fear, if you want a good 4 stroke trail bike for the family that is very maintenance cost effective, Honda still makes their low maintenance XR50, 70, 80, 100, 250, and 650. Kawasaki makes its KLX 110, 125, 300. I'm not gonna list all the other factories that make effective family trail bikes but you get the picture. Thats why older 2 strokes are so fun. The cost of maintenance is reasonable, and if built right and maintained right (two strokes are sooooo easy to work on by the average schmuck like me), you can have a good handling bike with tons of power that will last you till Y3K. Thats my opinion which is why I have an older 97 CR250, 98 KX500, and my wifes 99 KX80. These bikes are low cost to maintain and they have plenty of grunt. :-D
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I say it depends on the conditions and rider skill. Back in 2000 at a local enduro, I came out of a short tight section onto a sandy two tracker. My friend, who is an A class rider, was on a 99 YZ400F and I, also an A rider, was on a 00 YZ125. Because we came out of the section late, we both were trying to make up time on the dirt road. He got a little jump on me, but I ended up catching and passing him. He weighs about 150lbs and I was about 200. He was in the middle, where the sand was loose and I worked my way up onto the loamier shoulder. I simply hooked up better. I didnt pass him like he was standing still, but I passed him.
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I'll be honest, I didn't read all the posts, so if I repeat something already said, I apologize in advance.
I own both bikes, and it is apple and oranges. Get a Fofiddy and keep your K5!
Both my babies offer something that the other can not provide.
In a nut shell:
I take both bikes anywhere, (trails,double,and singletracks), but the KX450F has more finesse, and the K5 has more "Raw".
"4-stroke stall, blah,blah,blah........K5 squirrelly, blah,blah,blah" comments are correct.
But that's why I love them both! - After I short while you learn to not stall the Fofiddy and handle the K5. I love them both and wish everybody could own them!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Go Team Green!! :evil:
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I found another area where the KX500 is clearly superior.....changing the fork oil. The KX you simply pour it out and pour in the new stuff. My 450 with the dual chamber forks require complete disassembly, a few special tools, a tech manual and ...some luck. Cam.
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Actually it is not too bad. I had to make a 50mm wrench for the fork cap only to find I could have undone it by hand. The rest was more involved than the KX but actually easy. Dual chambers are cool since you can run different oil in each for better action. Cam.
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I just got a hold of a 04 yz450 and I must say it is a pretty sweat ride. It starts easy hot or cold with effortless kicking of the starter. It handles well in real tight turns and has good pour on power. The questing is it my new favorite? No. I can take my 500 and still do circles around it. The 500 just has uncompromisable power that the 450 just can not spit out. My brother rode the 450 and I lapped him twice. I can say the 450 does not vibrate as much as the 500, but I am not bothered by a little vibration.
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I feel like a nervous wreck after that DEBATE? anyway I have been trying to decide wheather to build / buy a KX 500 AF... I own a KX 500 now. For the past month our so I have been hitting the local MX track on my brothers RMZ 450. I much rather ride the open desert / race thru the dust hills long sandwashes and the occasional WFO straights. I have been riding many years on the KX 500s some 250s and now the RMZ 450. I weigh in at 165. With experiance in desert races there isnt ANY 450F that will keep up with My 500 ( as long as i can keep up my stamina) . BUT put a 500 on a track or a coarse that requires more then speed the 450F will put the 500 in its place ( the desert ). Now if i was younger and could hold the 500 open for 2 hours I know the 450 wouldnt stand a chance. One thing I did notice is that the 450 takes less effort to ride then the 500, but like earlier stated ( I think ) your dealing with 20 year old suspension versus state of the art suspension. SO IMO the 500 has its place and the 450 has its place. I dont have a clue about an AF 500 in the desert our track but it would be interesting for a non bias shoot out. Just think if the factories ( some of them ) and the AMA didnt kill the 500 what would a 500 be today with all the money and technollogy spent on producing the NEW 4ts. hats off to SH and others that have built an AF 500 , but im sure it could be done better with the right rake/trail...seat height....wheel base....clearance on and on and on....not saying your Afs arent awesome because they are but if done with all the math and proper configuration of building a new bike I am pretty sure it could be built better and probaly would be untouchable in any condition. I myself have never built a bike like you guys are doing to the AF but my dad built us one of a kind race bikes when we were alot younger, the frames were made by a company called VAN-TECH and different parts and engines were used off of all kinds of bikes. I know alot went into building these bikes as it took 2 years to buid one bike...probaly makes no sense........ but ride the hell outa what you have and have fun and fight to keep our riding areas open..
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The 500s and 2-strokes in general weren't killed because of the EPA, they were killed because of greed. :x
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2008/10/mxa-shootout-crf450-versus-cr500/
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/04/the-epa-vs-motocross/
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your right it wasnt only the EPA like I mentioned it was some of the factories....Yamaha..Suzuki ( roger decoster ) etc. Some of the best supercross racers ever, rode 500s and were very fast on them....jeff ward...kiedrowski...stanton..... just to name a few but it is what it is an i think the 450s do have a place there awesome on a track, someone early said to stay out of the rev limiter.....I dont know how that is done because riding the RMZ I was alway on it and the other 450s around me were also, so I can see were maintaince becomes an issue. For those of us ( not me ) who are young enough to make money or at the least get free riding gear and parts its worth it, for the guy having fun I can see why the 2t is better for MX. For me I will borrow the RMZ when iI want to stay competive and ride my 125 KX to have fun on the MX track and will never part with the 500 for a day in the desert...still somehow I have to ride AN AF..a guy can dream
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If the info in the EPA vs Motocross article is correct, it says the EPA has nothing to do with regulating 2-cycle engines. In other words, its all the manufacturers and the AMAs corruption. Pretty sad but typical.
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well we do see a slew of KTM 2Ts make you wonder
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Lets say there was a parallel universe where 2 strokes (250 and 500) were still around and there were no 4 strokes. The 500 would have had all the same changes and would be "modern" similar to a 500 AF. Along comes someone who trys to sell the idea of a 450 fourstroke and says main reason is it has alittel more power and torque than a 250 2 stroke but is heavier, more parts, not a "do it yourself" maintenacne, expensive, etc. I dont think anyone would be interested. Their argument maybe that a 500 has to much pwer and a 250 not enough. I think the logic would be to pursue a 300 2 stroke. more power and all the benefits of a 2 stroke (ease to maintain, cheaper, lighter, etc). Sadly this was not the case
Ktm make a 300 2 stroke (offroad not motocross) and it competes very well with the offroad 4 strokes. If they made a 300 sx it would be competitive with the 450 motocrossers.
The above senario would have been what i think would have been a logical progression but as it happened the 500's were doomed once the nationals ended and they stopped changing them so when the modern 450's came along to fill the need for more power/torque on the 250's and the consumer went with them and now we have heavier, more expensive, hard to maintain bikes. as you can tell i am a 2 stroke fan. 4 strokes never made sense and i still scratch my head how we let this happen.
i have a kx500 for desert and dunes and a ktm300 for desert racing. i will continue to supprt companies that make 2 strokes for as long as i can.
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I must agree that the change in the direction of dirtbike/motocross engines was purely out of greed and not because either machine performs better. Look at the world we live in today.
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soo... just curious why don't we all (every active member on this site) pitch in and open our own American MX/Enduro/motard Company?? and just BLOW everyone out the water?!?(mud hole?) :? :?
Seems like we have a few smart people around, Design. Few dumb but very good riders willing to try anything put their legs, no matter the size of engine, frame, (and by dumb, i mean Crazy guys willing to go outside the norm, where they can and will get hurt, Purposely,) yep i consider my self dumb, cause i know better, but dont care. take the K5 base, kx250 bored as big as we can and improve it, get a guy to practice on it 24/7 and throw him in a race... boom we have spotlight,
american built Direct injection 2smoker, or maybe make the 300 being mentioned, and Squamp out the 450 4s.?
just a random ?? id be willing to donate all my spare time! as i have nothing better to do with this life I live
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a 300-400cc 2 stroke and for a dream, add in EFI or Direct Injection and IMHO that would be a 4 stroke killer.
the longer the big manufacturers wait the less likely they are going to re-tool and dump money in R&D for 2 stroke.
Unfortunetly it will never happen due to the money made off 4 Strokes, bikes are more expensive, parts are more expensive. why would they go back?
i'm surprised you dont see a 300SX ktm. of course theres the 300XC but have to dump $$$ to convert it to an SX and loose some of the weight. theres also the big bore kit for the 250 but its $$$ as well.
i just bought a '14 ktm 250sx and its awesome. an ultralight 300 would be even better and close the gap the 450 4 stroke has. i dont think they want to make it because it would hurt 4 stroke sales obviously.
and the idea of a private company coming up with a dream engine. i dont think it will ever happen, theres no way someone can jump in and match any kind of R&D ktm or the japanese have come up with. would probably be a 300 2 stroke that put 40hp to the wheels and was full of problems.
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lol good to dream, at this point, with 4 strokes the way they are, I'll never buy, or be able to afford, :?1200+ for top end?
im having a hard time doing the $470 for my 125. (topend, new kips, gaskets, piston) :cry:
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a 300-400cc 2 stroke and for a dream, add in EFI or Direct Injection and IMHO that would be a 4 stroke killer.
the longer the big manufacturers wait the less likely they are going to re-tool and dump money in R&D for 2 stroke.
Unfortunetly it will never happen due to the money made off 4 Strokes, bikes are more expensive, parts are more expensive. why would they go back?
i'm surprised you dont see a 300SX ktm. of course theres the 300XC but have to dump $$$ to convert it to an SX and loose some of the weight. theres also the big bore kit for the 250 but its $$$ as well.
i just bought a '14 ktm 250sx and its awesome. an ultralight 300 would be even better and close the gap the 450 4 stroke has. i dont think they want to make it because it would hurt 4 stroke sales obviously.
and the idea of a private company coming up with a dream engine. i dont think it will ever happen, theres no way someone can jump in and match any kind of R&D ktm or the japanese have come up with. would probably be a 300 2 stroke that put 40hp to the wheels and was full of problems.
i ride a 360 ( big bored and longer stroked ´96 kx250 engine in actual 87-frame ) on the dyno we measured 51 hp on rear wheel. at the moment a little problem with the handmade copper-ring thats the new headgasket (i´m working to find a better solution) , but if it runs with its full potenzial no 450 wins a racestart against me... 8-)
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well then im playing the lotto
and as soon as I win that 350million, I'll open shop. we cant let 2srokes lose due to money gains
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gVeqix2Yc4
anybody hear of athena?
looks European based,
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well then im playing the lotto
and as soon as I win that 350million, I'll open shop. we cant let 2srokes lose due to money gains
When you do win the lotto for 350 million, you can buy my shop....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gVeqix2Yc4
anybody hear of athena?
looks European based,
Nope, but looks promising..... but I wouldn't hold your breath for anything fitting older bikes.
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and then he has still 349 million dollar... :wink:
athena is from italy and offers many good stuff like gaskets , bearings and seals for older and newer bikes... big bore kits for several bikes... i use it in all my bikes...
http://www.athenaparts.com/eng
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and then he has still 349 million dollar... :wink:
I think he would be closer to having 348.5 million left over...
I would need some start up capitol for my next business venture :-D
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Athena makes good big bore kits for atv's real reliable not as hopped up as some of the other big bore kits. The one we put on my cousins yzf 450 had better cooling then all the other big bore kits out at the time but wasn't putting down the same amount of hp but its still running strong years later with his minimal maintenance.
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and then he has still 349 million dollar... :wink:
I think he would be closer to having 348.5 million left over...
I would need some start up capitol for my next business venture :-D
8-)... youre a fox... :wink:
Athena makes good big bore kits for atv's real reliable not as hopped up as some of the other big bore kits. The one we put on my cousins yzf 450 had better cooling then all the other big bore kits out at the time but wasn't putting down the same amount of hp but its still running strong years later with his minimal maintenance.
with other words: only more torque and better rideability.
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don't like aethena's work
REALLY don't like their gaskets
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and then he has still 349 million dollar... :wink:
I think he would be closer to having 348.5 million left over...
I would need some start up capitol for my next business venture :-D
hell i aint greedy. but, might depend on where its located.
dropping my check into numbers next week :lol: J/K just 3/4, still need to eat.... :roll:
but thanks for the input on that company, cant remember what i was looking at on youtube, but the direct injection caught my eye, just a very basic video though, and cant find the parts for it on their site
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don't like aethena's work
REALLY don't like their gaskets
ok... only the best for the master.. :-)
what are better gaskets then athena??
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don't like aethena's work
REALLY don't like their gaskets
ok... only the best for the master.. :-)
what are better gaskets then athena??
Cometic....OEM...or just about anything else but.
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I've had really good success with Cometic and OEM.
I prefer Cometic which are Motorrad approved. :-)
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Me too!!! :-D :-D
(http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg485/alward25/97%20KX%20500%20build/IMG_2082_zpsf321e603.jpg)
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So your the one who broke into my shop and stole all my gaskets...