KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: maddoggy on September 22, 2007, 10:46:14 PM
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this may be a stupid idea but gotta throw it out there anyways. anyone ever thought of piping a small amount of pure oxygen into the intake of a bike? it's 4:30 am here so my thinking may not be too good but it seems like maybe there would be a little power gain. Stewart, maybe a dyno check idea. MADDOGGY
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You would probably have to add fuel just like with nitrous and you probably would not see the gains for all your work that you would see with nitrous. Not to mention pure oxygen, oil and fuel will start a fire all on their own. You would probably start a fire in the carb that would progress down the intake to the bottom end and blow the top off the engine. I say we try It :evil:.
(Interesting fact) On It's own nitrous Is not flammable you can actually put a fire out with It.
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Wayyyy bad idea, oxygen does not like hydrocarbons. It will make a big explosion, ever wonder why your oxy acetylene gauges say use no oil, big explosion. bad, bad, bad idea, I like reading your posts, and would like to see you around awhile, don't do it.
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well guys keep in mind that it was 4:30 am at the end of a nightshift at work when the thought entered my tired mind. :oops: oh well. after thinking about it today i thought it wasn't a good idea. i shouldn't think at 4:30 am i should just take a nap. :lol: MADDOGGY
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Wayyyy bad idea, oxygen does not like hydrocarbons. It will make a big explosion, ever wonder why your oxy acetylene gauges say use no oil, big explosion. bad, bad, bad idea, I like reading your posts, and would like to see you around awhile, don't do it.
Don you should not not be a negative Nellie you should be open to new ideas. I have been kicking around the idea of hydrogen peroxide injection ran threw a catalyzer. should be one hell of a jump In horse power we plan to test run It at Bonneville. :evil:
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I have been kicking around the idea of hydrogen peroxide injection ran threw a catalyzer.
Isn't that the basic principle of a liquid fuel rocket?
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now i really feel like an idiot. as if i wasn't one before :oops: i better keep my ideas to myself from now on to avoid emberassment. MADDOGGY
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No way dude! At least you are thinking. That's more than 95% of people in general do :-D With no one to experiment and think, how do we expect to advance? :wink:
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Hey I'm just kidding around don't get that sort of attitude. You have to think outside of the box In order to innovate. I have done more than one thing because some one said It was a bad Idea. For every one good idea I have had I have had ten retarded ones and for every cool thing I have fabed there was two or three smashed on the floor. Dont be scared to put your ideas out there Just because some but hole like me might poke fun.
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hey BDI, it ain't you man i just realize what is wrong with that idea now that i'm not dog tired and i feel like a jackass for throwin it out there. i'll come up with a better idea next i promise. MADDOGGY
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Pure Oxygen would be physically do-able but you wouldn't be able to get much gain before you'd start melting things.
The air we breathe has about 20% oxygen, and nitrous has more but only about 35%, the remainder in both cases is mostly nitrogen.
That being said the main reasons you can get so much power from nitrous is more due to the fact that it's so much colder and much more dense than air, so it's easy to get 2-3 times more oxygen molecules per volume of mixture you take in.
The kicker is that when you have say 3 times more oxygen, you're generating 3 times more heat from combustion. If it wasn't for the cooling effect of the nitrous (which can often be at -100F in the intake) you'd be melting your engine in no time.
So, if you could pipe pure oxygen into your engine, it might work, but you'd have to deal with all the other issues too.
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in turbo cars some people have been using water injection to both cool and I think there is some breakdown of the H2O molecule to release the O2 and Hydrogen....since the 2-stroke acts as a kind of supercharger I wonder if this could be applied?
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Wayyyy bad idea, oxygen does not like hydrocarbons. It will make a big explosion, ever wonder why your oxy acetylene gauges say use no oil, big explosion. bad, bad, bad idea, I like reading your posts, and would like to see you around awhile, don't do it.
Don you should not not be a negative Nellie you should be open to new ideas. I have been kicking around the idea of hydrogen peroxide injection ran threw a catalyzer. should be one hell of a jump In horse power we plan to test run It at Bonneville. :evil:
No Brian, I'm not being a negative Nellie, I would like to see Maddoggy around for awhile. This is the business I'm in, Oxygen is not anything to fool with, we've had explosions from just friction within lines while pumping. We do demonstration for kids, one of them is to put a drop of liquid O2 on a disc and then on another take a rag with oil and rub it across the other, the drop one onto the other, it makes quite an explosion, (this is in a controlled environment so the kids aren't in danger). Working around the stuff I've developed a healthy respect for it. I'm open for anything as long as it doesn't jepordize anybody;s well being.
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in turbo cars some people have been using water injection to both cool and I think there is some breakdown of the H2O molecule to release the O2 and Hydrogen....since the 2-stroke acts as a kind of supercharger I wonder if this could be applied?
If it was only that easy to breakdown water, but alas, at this point in time it can't be done. Interestingly you can inject Hydrogen in Argon to get rid of O2 and end up with water, the reverse isn't possible.
Most of thime I've seen water injected was to reduce detonation.
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Oh yes Grasshopper...but soon it shall be....and there will be GLORIOUS flames ejected from the pipe in such magnitudes that an afterburner affect will be had. launching the magnificent K5 into the the reaches of space.... and then ....yes then....the 4-stroke will fall to the feet of the mighty 5-hunny. trembling in its pool of used motor oil....
or something like that!
;p.....MK
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Maddogy,
The idea is sound. The more oxygen you can get into an engine (with the appropriate amount of additional fuel) the more power you can make. Turbos, Superchargers and Nitrous-oixde essentially do the same thing, just in different ways. You just can't put pure o2 into an engine because of its affinity for exploding with oil. That is why nitrous-oxide or the peroixde thing works well because it gets the O2 in there by using a non-exploding compound that contains the O2. My last turbo used water injection. Was excellent at controlling detonation and kept the engine clean but absolutely did not break down into O2 and H2. You need a huge amount of electrical energy to do that. Keep the ideas comming, BDI is right....you have to think outside the box to get anywhere new. Cam.
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The Water-Gas shift occurs at around 800deg C, whereby H2O(water) and CO (carbon monoxide) reform into H2(Hydrogen) and CO2. So theoretically, if you had a rich combustion environment, so you had a surplus of CO, you could inject water and get some additional reactions:
C8H18 + O2 ---> CO + CO2 + H20
CO + H2O ---> CO2 + H2
H2 + O2 ---> H2O
The tricky part would be the oxygen. Since in order to end up with free CO molecules to fuel the Water-Gas shift, you would have to be deficient in O, where do you get the O needed to combust your H2???
You would need to have a twin, one cylinder with water injection and running really rich, the other cylinder running on a mixture of the exhaust from the first cylinder and more fresh air. Then again we all know what happens when you mix hot, fuel laden exhaust gas with fresh air... no spark ignition required!
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Wayyyy bad idea, oxygen does not like hydrocarbons. It will make a big explosion, ever wonder why your oxy acetylene gauges say use no oil, big explosion. bad, bad, bad idea, I like reading your posts, and would like to see you around awhile, don't do it.
Don you should not not be a negative Nellie you should be open to new ideas. I have been kicking around the idea of hydrogen peroxide injection ran threw a catalyzer. should be one hell of a jump In horse power we plan to test run It at Bonneville. :evil:
No Brian, I'm not being a negative Nellie, I would like to see Maddoggy around for awhile. This is the business I'm in, Oxygen is not anything to fool with, we've had explosions from just friction within lines while pumping. We do demonstration for kids, one of them is to put a drop of liquid O2 on a disc and then on another take a rag with oil and rub it across the other, the drop one onto the other, it makes quite an explosion, (this is in a controlled environment so the kids aren't in danger). Working around the stuff I've developed a healthy respect for it. I'm open for anything as long as it doesn't jepordize anybody;s well being.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Don I was joking around. :-P
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Wayyyy bad idea, oxygen does not like hydrocarbons. It will make a big explosion, ever wonder why your oxy acetylene gauges say use no oil, big explosion. bad, bad, bad idea, I like reading your posts, and would like to see you around awhile, don't do it.
Don you should not not be a negative Nellie you should be open to new ideas. I have been kicking around the idea of hydrogen peroxide injection ran threw a catalyzer. should be one hell of a jump In horse power we plan to test run It at Bonneville. :evil:
No Brian, I'm not being a negative Nellie, I would like to see Maddoggy around for awhile. This is the business I'm in, Oxygen is not anything to fool with, we've had explosions from just friction within lines while pumping. We do demonstration for kids, one of them is to put a drop of liquid O2 on a disc and then on another take a rag with oil and rub it across the other, the drop one onto the other, it makes quite an explosion, (this is in a controlled environment so the kids aren't in danger). Working around the stuff I've developed a healthy respect for it. I'm open for anything as long as it doesn't jepordize anybody;s well being.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Don I was joking around. :-P
Brian, I know you were, I didn't want somebody thinking, hey this is a great idea, I'm going to get me a small cylinder of O2 and make some serious horsepower. Some of the safety videos that I've seen are UN-believable, when used properly great stuff. Anyway if a person wants to make additional HP go with the Nitrous it is a reasonably safe oxidizer, I say reasonably safe only because I saw a bike that looked like it had been dropped off a truck at 80 mph, supposedly a nitrous cylinder exploded. This was on a 4t, I suspect there was a stall and backfire with the nitrous on, the nitrous enhanced the fire and pert near burned it to the ground, there was an explosion of some kind, the airbox was nothing but bits and pieces. As I had said before, I think it was during the discussion on blowing dents out of pipes, I have a healthy respect for any pressurized gas, including air.
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I guess I don't always think of what some one might really try. :-D
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I say try the H2O2
http://www.wisegeek.com/can-hydrogen-peroxide-really-be-used-as-rocket-fuel.htm
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Of course we have forgotten the most important aspect, the KX 500 components were designed for 60-70 hp, add another 20-30hp and the longevity diminishes drastically. The K5 rod is one of the weak points, I was able to get a titanium rod for my Nitrous bike, otherwise I'd be putting a new rod in every year, then what about the clutch and components, will they handle the extra hp?
There is a price to pay for being able to blow away your buddy, the question, is it worth it, probably! :-D