KX Riders
General => In General... => Topic started by: BDI on August 26, 2007, 03:56:10 PM
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what do you think about the government killing the two stroke.I would like to here everyone's opinion even you guys who just come and look and leave.You know who you are. pipe up and speak your mind. Please do not look at this post with out leaving a response. You have to have an opinion if you ride a bike, what Is It?.
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My new HUSQUEVARNA chainsaw has a catylitic converter in the pipe. Why not try making 2-strokes better at emissions? I do not think that 2-strokes have much impact on the environment anyway. Most 2-strokes are used in low duty situations. Unlike the gazilions of vehicles running all day and night. 2-strokes definatly have their place and in some situations do their job better than any 4-stroke could. Fuel injection,catylitic convertors, multispark ignition and propper tuning make for a very eficient 2-stroke. I do not know why they are killing the two strokes but it really makes me mad. I will never part with my kx-500, it is mine till the day i die.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------MY 2-SMOKE COLLECTION:
-2000 KX-500 (the BILLYGOAT)
-1986 YZ-490 (the DEATHTRAP)
-1986 RM-125 (the CHAINSAW ON WHEELS)
-1977 YZ-400 (le PIG)
-HUSQUEVARNA 365 20" BAR
-HUSQUEVARNA 65 (THE VIBRATOR)
-WEED EATER
-LEAF BLOWER
2-STROKES DO MORE WORK IN HALF THE TIME!! HOW EFFICIENT IS THAT???.....Mr. TREEHUGGER
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Geez, where do we start. I'll throw in my opinion.
I don't think it's necessarily the gov that shut down the two stroke. It has everything to do with MONEY!!!
You gotta understand that two stroke motor technology had pretty much topped out when power valves were introduced. Next came the improved chassis. Companies need something new each year and with two strokes it was getting to be more like "Bold New Graphics" only years.
During the early 90s, 4 strokes were relagated to pretty much trail bike status except for the few European racing 4 strokes. All the dirt bike companies realized that there was so much to improve with 4 stroke technology and the fact that government policies would be changing with 2 stroke pollution. It is a win-win for everyone but the die hard 2 stroke fan. The dealers make a killing on 4 stroke motor parts when they grenade. The green tree huggers get their wish to rid society of (noisy) 2 strokes.
It seems as though the 4 stroke technology has slowed down in the last few years, but now we are starting to see fuel injection technology coming in.
My biggest gripe is the AMA basically does what all the big bike companies want them to do. Tailor the rules for their "new" bikes is one thing that comes to mind. I mean, why couldn't the AMA force the companies to produce say 175 and 350 4 strokes? This would have kept 2 strokes around MUCH longer. The money it costs to race a 250 4 stroke at professional level is crazy. The motors just can't take those hi rpms. The 125 motors required work too, but at a much cheaper price.
It all came down to MONEY, MONEY, and more MONEY!!!
BTW, my "noisy" remark about 2 strokes was more of a joke since that is the way non riders see 2 strokes. :wink:
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Over the past weekend, I went to Steel City Raceway to watch the big boys race. Of course there was not a 2-stroke in the area, until Mad Mike Metzger paid a visit. The noise from the all 4-stroke line-up was deafening. I saw many young kids wearing ear protection. Its sad when you know the two-smoker cannot compete due to the AMA's wisdom.
There were torrential rains Saturday night, making the track a swamp for the early practices, and pre-race qualifiers. As I watched the practices and qualifying races, I was taken by how the younger riders, (probably who have never ridden a 2 stroke larger than an 85cc bike), struggled in the mud. One section had a 90 degree turn up a pretty steep slope. Because of the deep mud, you couldn't carry much speed into the corner. I watched and was amazed has how the riders struggled to get up the hill. Many were pedaling to make it to the top. What I saw was riders relying on the equipment to get them through vs. riders using their talent to get them through. I think the 4-stroke had made average racers "better" but they also have gotten lazy. Although at the same time you saw riders with God given talent, they flat out know how to ride. They could ride a pit bike and whoop my behind.
It just bothers me to see a reliable work horse as my trusty 2-smoker be non competitive because the AMA sided with the bike MFG's. Many riders ate forced to stop racing after the move beyond the 85cc bikes. Its just too expensive to maintain a competitive 4 stroke for racing. The cost of a new top end for the 85 was cheap to a top end on the 4-stroke.
On a side note: Recently I did get to try a KTM 144... All I can say is shame on the AMA for outlawing this bike in the professional ranks. I would love to see what the top lites riders can do with that little rocket... Its light as a feather, and just hauls arse.
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I havent posted in a while but this has always been a topic of interest to me. I have been a 2 smoker since I was a young kid and have always loved them. I am a woods rider and not would dream of switching to a 4t yet. I cant say I wont ever because I have a lot of riding/racing to do and know that it is inevitable that I will be running a 4 stroke at some point. I will say the last hare scramble I was at solidified the fact that 2 strokes rule. You have an engine that last saw any real development in the mid ninties just waxing these high reving grenade 4 strokes. As a non pro its a no brainer, buy a cheaper, easier to maintain, faster, lighter 2 stroke or a slower heavier more expensive four stroke.
As far as the gvt goes I live in ohio so I do not see the regulations you cali boys see but it makes no sence to regulate something that has such a low impact on the environment. I would rather see the auto manufactures be held to emissions standards then the bikes. I mean come on I haul my bike with a 6 cylinder truck that gets 24 - 27mpg and I have actually had someone at a riding area tell me that they bought a 4stroke because it was better for the environment. When I stoped laughing I asked him if he thought my kx500 and six cylinder truck put out more polution than his yz450f and his exursion with the 25ft hauler attatched. Some people just dont think
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I have actually had someone at a riding area tell me that they bought a 4stroke because it was better for the environment. When I stoped laughing I asked him if he thought my kx500 and six cylinder truck put out more polution than his yz450f and his exursion with the 25ft hauler attatched. Some people just dont think
That's the exact mentality some of the tree huggers have. :roll:
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its just sad the AMA is siding with the MFG industry instead of the riders they are supposed to protect and help. I could see doing away with 2-strokes if the cars on the street were using this technology, that would be no doubt horrible for the air we breathe. but this is something that rich, oil gussling, industry leaders/politicians(one and the same) can point to and say to the people that they are killing with megatons of crap being spewed into the sky "look we're doing something". when you think of the increasing number of people ,especially kids, with asthma to cancer its pretty clear what the problem is. money keeps the oil machine moving while the health and little joys in life continue to be damaged. with all the synthetic technology and ethanol R&D, 2-strokes could continue without problem. as long as the Govt./industry can keep shifting the blame away from Autos and factories puking crap into the air, they will. I meen really, they are blaming COW farts for God's sake! not just Kaw farts....MK
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You know It's funny I go to the dunes and at night I have a camp fire That I'm sure puts out more polution In one night then my two stroke puts out In a year. You know I read one time that Off road vehicles added up to less than 0.01% of Californias total polution problem. That's not just motorcycles that figure was based on all off road vehicles. I do not understand why we all have to follow what California does. some of the outboard boat engine manufacturers are now producing two strokes that meet standerds and they are very fast. I think they are faster than the old two strokes. I think some time In the future we will see a come back of the two stroke. It will be about the time most every one has forgotten what they were It will be hailed as the latest and greatest thing It will be lighter, simpler, more powerful and cheaper to maintain and are children will be amazed by it. It will be more expensive again because of the technoligy It takes to make It work. I wonder what the true enviromental impact of the four stroke is If you factor In all the stuff no one thinks about like the production of all the extra parts from the tracktor that digs the ore from the ground to the foundry that makes the parts to the trucks that deliver the parts and so on. what about all the oil changing we might not be burning It but we are now using more of It that oil has to go somewhere not every one recycles their oil. when It comes to polution I think Its really hard not to pass the buck. It's like electric cars your car might not pollute but If the electric plant burns coal to make the electricity to charge your battery then you have passed the buck... Its all a bunch of crap If you ask me.It seams like motorcyclist are an easy target and we are allways getting the short end of the stick.
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I have never really ridden a 4-stroke and currently have no plans to. I am not sure what was driving the change to 4-stroke but you can speculate several different reasons and everyone else who has posted has given some really good ones. The one thing about all this that really catches my eye is KTM. Like someone else earlier said about it coming around full circle with 2-strokes back in the spotlight, they are the company that is still making a wide variety of 2-strokes. They were also the company making a wide variety of 4-strokes before any japanese company. Do they know something everyone else does not, again? I really wish a japanese company would put some R&D into a big bore 2-stroke with cleaner emissions. I pray that I am never forced into buying a 4-stroke in the future, I want it to be by choice when I'm ready.
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KTM as far as I can tell, is putting some time into the R&D of 2 strokes. For 08 the 300, is now offered with an "E" button, (Electric Start). I've heard they are also looking into EFI for 09 or 10. With the battery and E button on a two stroke, EFI can't be too far behind. I believe our European brethren may be more versed on what KTM is working on.
At least one company is actually making a competitive 2-smoker...
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I believe the two stroke being phased out, is from the government pressuring the manufacturors to "do something" to clean up emissions. I think there are actually a few people who care about clean air, but the polititions just want to get re-elected.If they vote in favor of clean air, the tree huggers will vote for them.
I ride a two stroke, not because I disregard clean air, but because so many guys I know cannot keep a two stroke running or maintained. I love to be able to rev the two stroke engine , without fear of a four stroke explosion. The general belief among many I know , is that two strokes always sieze, always foul plugs and are impossible to start. I ride a two stroke mostly to dispell those false myths. My bike has never siezed, starts better than any kick start four stroke and doesnt foul plugs.
I also like the two stroke because the government doesnt, I guess there is some rebelliousness in me. At this time, I hope to always keep a two stroke. Perhaps in the future I may ride a four stroke, but they will always be available , unlike the two stroke.
As far as emissions are concerned, it's what comes out the other guys tailpipe that is causing the problem, after all I ride a "GREEN" bike. LOL
Good topic, hope to hear everyones opinin on this one.
John
PS hurt my throttle wrist and cant ride for a few weeks. :x
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Sorry for piping In on my own topic the first time and now Im doing It again. I was thinking about It, I do not have one friend That has not rejetted his or her four stroke to make It ridable. I rejet thumpers all the time. They lean them out so bad to meet standards that they don't want to run right just to get them Into the country and then we buy a jet kit to make It run and It's back to putting out emissions that two strokes can easily meet with the new technoligy. there's no end to this It's a joke and with EFI It's going to be easier to screw with are bikes than It Is now. The next step Is going to be to make us smog are bikes but thanks to EFI I will just load the map that passes the smog test. I cant wait For EFI on my bike the only thing Its going to clean up Is my hands. when I richen up my jetting all I will need Is my laptop and a patch cord. You can not stop me unless you take It away completely. Don't think they have not thought of that.
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The next step for dirt bikes I think is direct injection. This is a proven method of reducing emissions and increasing horsepower. I personally cannot understand why no one hase taken it on yet appart for the cost issue ofcourse. In outboard motors a large number of direct injection 2-strokes are now running more power, less emissions and less fuel consumption :-o but the market hasn't taken it on so well because it has been drilled into consumers heads so much that 4-strokes are the one and only. Have a look at this link off orbital engineering
http://www.orbeng.com.au/orbital/aboutOrbital/pressarc/pdf/ob_so.pdf
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I also like the two stroke because the government doesnt, I guess there is some rebelliousness in me. At this time, I hope to always keep a two stroke. Perhaps in the future I may ride a four stroke, but they will always be available , unlike the two stroke....Johnniespeed
Love this statement, well done. Hope your wrist gets better fast and without deficits.
As with the progression of life all things must come to an end. Don't get caught never having you or your family enjoy a 2-stroke in your lifetime because my childrens children may never get the chance. They will be gone, or at least so hard to maintain with parts that they will become show pieces. Both my children and my wife have had two strokes in the pas or presently. Only the most common will have the aftermarket following to stay up and running (trx250r, banshee, 80-85cc). I plan on keeping what I have and add a few more that I have had my eye on (mid 80's KX5 and CR5, RM500).
Four strokes for the recreational/semi aggressive user are great machines. I will just say they are less maintenance than a two stroke in this area, period. That doesn't mean that they are better or more powerful, even stonger. Just more reliable, ride and forget. Very normal in todays society.
I grew up on four strokes since I was eight and didn't get a two stroke until later in life. The two stroke was the king and was big dollars compared to the relative recreational genre the four stroke was classified in. How things have flip flopped.
Sly
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KTM as far as I can tell, is putting some time into the R&D of 2 strokes. For 08 the 300, is now offered with an "E" button, (Electric Start). I've heard they are also looking into EFI for 09 or 10. With the battery and E button on a two stroke, EFI can't be too far behind. I believe our European brethren may be more versed on what KTM is working on.
At least one company is actually making a competitive 2-smoker...
I have been looking at the 300 XC (no e start) and wondering how it would compare to the 500AF that costs maybe 2k more? I know 2k would pay for a lot of race prep on the 300 but still. Sorry to go KTM on this thread but I think it is relevant since they are the only company out there still trying with 2-strokes.
How easily big business, governments included, can sway the opinions of everyone. I thought the United States was all about choice? The problem is that it's a multiple choice question and you only get to pick from four answers that are chosen by the majority. I really wonder if motorcycle companies were forced into developing better 4-stroke technology through politics or by choice. I can find a lot of similarities in the supposed perception here in the U.S. between gas and diesel engines in personal vehicles. I have read that Americans don't like diesels because they were extremely loud and rattly in the past and it left a bad taste in their mouth. I have no idea if the majority of Americans believe that. Yeah big diesel trucks are loud for sure but they get quieter as they get smaller. When you pull up next to a Hino or Mitsubishi cargo truck or a Dodge Sprinter do you hear the loud rattly diesel? I don't. Why can't I buy a 4 or 6 cylinder diesel Ranger or Frontier? I would much rather spend my hard earned money on that.
So why is it similar? 4-strokes in general have not been as loud as 2-strokes. The newer ones are getting close and if you open up a stock 4-stroke they are louder than any 2-stroke. I would think the general population see's it differently than I do. 17 years ago I live in Michigan and kids would ride around during the summer on their bikes and quads. Some had XR100's some had KX125's or Kawasaki Bayous or Four Trax 250R's. Whatever they were if you heard a 4-stroke going by back then most people would not think it was nearly as loud as the 2-stroke going by. So the Jones' down the street are bitching about lil' Billy on the KX125. Fast forward 15 years and the ORV market has grown exponentially. How do you appeal to this growing market who grew up a bad taste in their mouth about an "outlaw" type sport? You meet the nicest people on a Honda. MASS(ES) MARKETING.
http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1959establishingamericanhonda/text08/index.html
Sorry to drag unrelated vehicles into but I think it helped explain one possible reason behind the death of 2-strokes.
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As with the progression of life all things must come to an end. Don't get caught never having you or your family enjoy a 2-stroke in your lifetime because my childrens children may never get the chance. They will be gone, or at least so hard to maintain with parts that they will become show pieces.
Do not rule the two stroke out, all It would take Is some one who can ride to role up on a direct injection 250 two stroke that weighs 20 pounds less than anything else and hand every one their arse, to sway peoples opinions. Do some reading on the direct injection two strokes that they are making right now and then imagine what they will have In just five years. what wins on Sunday Is what sells on Monday as the old saying goes. Do not be surprised If companies like Honda are working on stuff behind closed doors In fact you can count on It. Companies like Honda do not like to be caught with their pants down and they will research something just incase It's possible. I have read pleanty of stuff about the research that Honda did In the seventies that was top secret at the time. They can be as secretive about stuff as are government can be with their area 51 crap.
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I agree with BDI. I would love to see a top pro on a 2 smoker with EFI. When I watched the race at Steel City, I watched Ryan Villopoto go down with a pile of other riders in the 1st turn in race one, only to torch the course and charge all the way back to 3rd. In the 2nd motto, he put on a clinic... Holeshot to flag, he is amazing. I would love to know is it the rider, or is it the bike... put him on a EFI 2-stroke, and lets find out. I think he would increase his lead even more with a bike that weigh's 20 pounds less.
As for the big boys Bubba Stewart was out for this race, but I think Bubba would win no matter what he rode... He would be competitive on a KX 100... So with out Bubba you knew it would be a open field. Since the power of the bikes are so close, it comes down to the rider and some luck. If a 2 stroke 250 with EFI would give a rider a slight edge, riders would be flocking to them. I think they would be competitive with the 4-stroke. But If the 2 strokers are EFI, I'm sure the 4 strokers as be as well....
The only way 2-strokes are going to be competitive is if the AMA reduces the displacements of 4-strokes to 200cc and 400cc or allow 144cc and 275cc. But unfortunately, we all know that is not going to happen.
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Several years back, prior to the 4 stroke explosion, Ho**a R&D a two stoke with direct injection and a host of other goodies, the end result was a cleaner running 2 stroke. You may remember the article it was in one of the bike mags. I believe that if emissions are truly the issue, a cleaner burning 2 stroke could be developed. One of the previous posts mentioned that 2t had reached the end of development potential and so the mfg had to come up with a better mousetrap, ok a different mousetrap.
There was also a post saying that there was less maintenance to a 4 stroke, take it from somebody that both, the 4 t requires waaaay more maintenance than the 2t.
There is a place for both, and it is a shame the development has ended on 2 t from Japan.
One other thought, A couple of years back a Yamaha dealer I know, told me the they had a 125 and 250 in development that would kick the 450 a$$, and that once the hype died down they would be released. The idea being, as a racer there would be a 125, 250, 250f, and 450 class and now as a parent little johnnie needs 4 bikes to compete as opposed to 2, hmm maybe there is something to it, I don't know.
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The AMA and the FIM are currenlty putting the heat on the major four brands to build and R&D a 350 cc 4 stroke for the permier class. The AMA and FIM are reporting that the big four strokes are tearing up the track and most riders can't ride the bike at top level. This talk has showed up in Cycle News and Dirt Rider mags this year. After I rode my buddies YZ450F I came to realize why their is so much hype around four strokes. I was riding the bike with less stress and less input from me. The power / torque from the 450's is unmated as in a sense of being easy to ride (no clutch needed to keep it in the power band just roll the throttle). I love the 2 stroke power and feel it will be around for several more years. The 1998 YZ400F with Doug Henry winning the outdorr title started it all.
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I have heard the AMA is pushing for a 350. I've also heard they would like to phase out the 450.'s just like they did to the 500's. If I recall they claim the bikes are too fast have too much horsepower. (Isn't that the same reason for the demise of the 500's?). If you consider a supercross race, do they ever get beyond 3rd gear? Outdoors there is a little more room to open it up, depending on the track. If the AMA gets their wish replace the 450 with a 350, the 250 2-stroke will be looked at strongly as a viable racing machine. All bike MFG?s will be pouring $$ into R&D of the trusty old 2 stroke.
I hope it works out?
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its just sad the AMA is siding with the MFG industry instead of the riders they are supposed to protect and help.
The riders (customers) are the ones buying the big four strokes! Without a market, the companies won't invest more R&D/production dollars into two strokes. Now, don't get me wrong. I ride two storkes. My boys ride two strokes. I love 'em, and wont buy a thumper. I'll go Euro before I go 4T.
The AMA and the FIM are currenlty putting the heat on the major brands to build and R&D a 350 cc 4 stroke for the permier class.
Yes, the FIM wants to impose a 350CC maximum displacement, regardless of engine configuration. The AMA, in word, is getting on board. However, there has been no action on the AMA's part to indicate any real commitment to this recommendation.
Fact is, the Euro companies (GG, KTM, and HUSQ) are still developing the 2T. Using direct injection and/or improved crank bearing materials, they are already testing bikes to run at a 1% mix. The Japanese companies will follow suit, but it may be a few years before we see the fruits of their labor.
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Bombardier is making clean burning 2T sleds. 1000cc monsters. It will be years before you see them switch over to a full fourstroke lineup. Even then you will never get a fourstroke sled that will match the old 2T Rev/Firecat.
The potential is there, EFI two stroke quads/dirtbikes are well within manufacturer capabilities.
Like was previously stated, its a money racket. Four stroke rebuilds will make dealers and manufacturers millions.
Two strokes won't. Emissions are just an escapegoat (sp?).
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If they make a 350cc class they are only going to hurt the little guy. The bikes will still be fast as hell but they will be so high strung that the only ones who will be able to afford to maintain them and be cometitive are the factory guys. The privateers will not be able to compete. I wonder If It Is possible that they are trying to force the factories to bring back the two stroke :|
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I'm confused about the reasoning, also. Some people out there are thinking its the noise, but the 4-strokes are a higher decible with a lower tone. Thier sound carries alot further. Others think emissions, but like you guys are saying... what percent of our pollution is directly related to recreational vehicles? Some might reason that the MPG's of a 4-stroke make it a more effecient for our fuel shortage. Then why are hybrid cars not allowed in the US if they are too effecient? Thats right, if a electric or hybrid car is above something like 35 mpg's, its not allowed to be sold in the US. I've also heard that it is a demand thing. Hows that? Only the wealthy can afford to buy a new 4-stroke, maintain and modify it. I think it comes down to the almighty dollar from our Manufacturers. Bikes, Parts, upgrades, maintenance, absolutely all of it is more money for a 4-stroke. Oh yeah, and the conservitive jokers from California, who are down on anything fun are masters at shifting the blame and appearing to be taking some serious action while doing absolutely nothing to the root of the problems. Anyone can be a critic. And anyone with enough money can broadcast thier critisisms, but it takes a genious to make real effective changes. Too bad we are short on those.
In states like Kentucky, West Virginia, Tennessee, Illinois, Michigan, some in Indiana, and I'm sure plenty of other states, they have state organized ORV trails. Rules are simple stay on the marked trails and no trailblazing. This is their fix to random destruction of national forest property. Why doesn't that mentality work everywhere? Designate places to ride and give struggling communities some tourism, and they can even charge for weekend or yearly permits to stimulate local government cash flow.
Everyone, who is concerned about this trend, needs to become an AMA member and push for your right to ride.
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thats what the customers are buying because thats what is regulated by the AMA to be raced.
its just sad the AMA is siding with the MFG industry instead of the riders they are supposed to protect and help.
The riders (customers) are the ones buying the big four strokes! Without a market, the companies won't invest more R&D/production dollars into two strokes. Now, don't get me wrong. I ride two storkes. My boys ride two strokes. I love 'em, and wont buy a thumper. I'll go Euro before I go 4T.
The AMA and the FIM are currenlty putting the heat on the major brands to build and R&D a 350 cc 4 stroke for the permier class.
Yes, the FIM wants to impose a 350CC maximum displacement, regardless of engine configuration. The AMA, in word, is getting on board. However, there has been no action on the AMA's part to indicate any real commitment to this recommendation.
Fact is, the Euro companies (GG, KTM, and HUSQ) are still developing the 2T. Using direct injection and/or improved crank bearing materials, they are already testing bikes to run at a 1% mix. The Japanese companies will follow suit, but it may be a few years before we see the fruits of their labor.
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Platypus wrote: Sorry to go KTM on this thread but I think it is relevant since they are the only company out there still trying with 2-strokes.
Some truth to this statement. KTM has figured it out that they can sell the 2-stroke in the off road racing world. They take their 2-stroke and sell them harescamble ready with suspension geared toward off road not motocross, kick stands, head and tail lights, and engines are designed to make power for harescamble type riding or racing. Yamaha seems to be moving forward with the 2-strokes, when everybody was saying two strokes are dead Yamaha come out with new almun frames for the 125,250. But Yamaha is still marketing these bikes toward the motocross market and the moto crowd doesn't want them. If Yamaha would design the current YZ250 for the off road market and design some of the feature into that bike and market as KTM does theirs they would be hard to beat. All the Jap bike companies need to switch their 2-stroke design over to offroad racing and quit offering these bike to the moto crowd.