KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: Hillclimb#42 on July 12, 2007, 10:53:47 AM
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I ride and race a k5 and a 250. I try to set them up the same as much as possible. Hopefully that will make them both as fast and rideable as possible. I put on the same front and rear sprockets on them, and the 250, believe it or not, pulls the the gear farther. That is to say that, I need to shift the 500 sooner on the same hill. Does the transmission in a k5 have lower gears than a 250 or is the power from the k5 able to reach the top of the gear that much faster? I have been running 13/47 on both, but now have the 14 back on the 500. I think that will feel taller than the 250, but I'm not sure of final ratios or if that even matters. Anybody know the difference between 250 and 500 stock 2nd gear sizes? :?
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13/47 Is very low for the kx500.The transmission gear ratio's do matter. All the transmission gear ratio's should be in your manual's at the end of the chapter that talks about your transmission, you do have manual's for your bikes right :? I tried that gear ratio on my bike before. I found that the bike slowed down do to the fact I was turning the tire less times per engine revolution that adds up to less ground coverd at any given rpm not to mention the fact the you have to shift more times going up the hill. My current gear ratio Is taller then stock. I like to gear taller and then make more horse power to pull the taller gear rather than gear down to try to make up for a lack of ponies, you will always go slower and your 500 probably isn't lacking any ponies.
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I hear what you're saying BDI, and I agree for the most part. I am basically copying other racers on the gearing choice. The object is to run the tallest gear possible with no bog, but a bog on the 500 means you just crashed hard. Understanding that when Hillclimbing the point is not only to make it up, but be the fastest. That means leave it pinned until you are over. On the 250 you have to clutch more to stay off of a bog after a jump, but the stock length 500 wants to flip as soon as it hooks. If you have to let off to regain control, you just lost. I have successfully made the hills, and am leading in points in Indiana and Illinois, but I'm not always the fastest. Of course the 500's fresh motor is not lacking on the power dept., but it seems crazy that the 250 pulls the same gearing farther. Yeah, I have to break out the manuals tonight and see what they say about my gears in tranny. It may actually be better to gear down on back sprocket and pull third out of the hole. I actually just need whatever gear that will spin out of the hole, but one that also pulls on the entire hill without shifting. Also keep in mind we have alot of clay here, which turns hard as pavement with dust on top. Hills often have three breakers on a 150 ft hill. So it is basically three hole shots of 50 ft on average. I'm back to 14/47 and have already been warned by more experienced riders that this may be too tall. So I guess its wheelie time or win time, huh. Thats the only way to race!!!! :mrgreen:
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I don't hill climb in the way that you do I basicly sand drag up a big sand dune I launch in second and then stab third at the base of the hill grab fourth about one third of the way up and hold it all the way to the top for a smooth ride if all goes right. My bike is loaded and in contact with the ground for the most part. My gearing Is 14/45 and my bike pulls fourth gear up the hill with authority but If any thing happens to cause me to let off my pass is over, so I see your point. Here is a cool tool that takes some patience to use. .http://www.xs4all.nl/~ator0437/gc/ and this is a ratio chart that might help you make better informed gear ratio changes http://www.dropbears.com/u/utilities/sprocket.htm Don't forget your 250 probably turn's more rpm than your 500. If your 250 pulls 1000 rpm more than your 500 it will seam to pull the same gear a lot longer.
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I ride and race a k5 and a 250. I try to set them up the same as much as possible. Hopefully that will make them both as fast and rideable as possible. I put on the same front and rear sprockets on them, and the 250, believe it or not, pulls the the gear farther. That is to say that, I need to shift the 500 sooner on the same hill. Does the transmission in a k5 have lower gears than a 250 or is the power from the k5 able to reach the top of the gear that much faster? I have been running 13/47 on both, but now have the 14 back on the 500. I think that will feel taller than the 250, but I'm not sure of final ratios or if that even matters. Anybody know the difference between 250 and 500 stock 2nd gear sizes? :?
What modifications have you done to your KX?
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250 is all but stock. It has Pro Circuit works pipe and FMF Shorty Silencer. Wiseco piston. Performance on the 250 is largely attributed to the new Kenda tires (Washougal Super Sticky). The 500 is a fresh motor with Boysen Rad valve with a spacer, Pro Circuit Platinum Pipe, FMF Powercore Silencer cut in half, also Wiseco piston. Thats about it for performance upgrades. Also have Clutch ease box, New Clutch discs and steels, steering stabilizer, Super stock clamps, Pro taper bars. There's no doubt, it's a screamer. I have had many compliments on sound and performance, but was thinking 2nd gear is shorter than 250's probably by design. BDI pointed out that the 250 turns more R's so that would make some sense. 2nd gear seems too short, where 3rd will pull until everything goes blurry. :lol: I just don't think its possible to pull third off the line. I'm trying to figure out final drive ratio. I have charts on sprocket ratios, but need to figure out that ratio with tranny ratio to get final ratio. To adjust my current set up, I can add a tooth on front, or drop one or two on back and continue to pull 2nd, or gear down the same way, but pull third. I'm too new at it to try something noone is doing, but a little information will help me make small adjustments instead of big ones.
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Take out the reed spacer that hurts over rev and is probably why your bike does not pull the gear as long as you would like take out the boysen valve they dont work half as good as V-force.The pro-circuit pipe is good choice but I think the bike makes better power with stock muffler. are you running the thin head gasket the 500 loves compression. P.S. Dont be scared to try stuff that no one else Is doing If you follow in some one elses tire track's you can't make the pass.
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I read somewhere that for the type of hillclimbing you're doing, gear it to run second the whole way....I can't remember if it was a magazine article or not.
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You're absolutely right Arigato. That is the way to win. If you shift it has to be perfect timing. I found out last night that the k5 is actually geared taller in the transmission than the 250 in 2nd. So really comparing the two is apples and oranges. The bottom line is putting the math to it and finding out the final ratio that the individual bike will pull the best. They are just different animals. I will need to pin point the ratio and then have to stay on top of that when making adjustments to make sure I'm tweaking and not making huge changes. The biggest mistake I made so far was to run the same sprockets as a CR 500 and 250 which both have taller transmission and drive gears. Thanks for tips BDI, but I have this k5 as dialed in as I ever have and I don't want to change much now. I am running thin metal gasket, and not lacking compression. The motor is completely fresh from Thomas Racing Service, (Pro Hillclimb Bike Fabricator and Racer) He builds all kinds of bikes for the pros so I'm confident in his abilities to set me up with reliable strong motor. I am just trying to tame it, if you know what I mean. Alot of races are decided by hundreths and even thousandths of a second, so a little improvement is alot.
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I understand what you are saying and I do not blame you one bit Im just some yayhoo on a chat as far as you know but I can tell you that the thing's Im telling you about the motor have been learned through countless hours and dollers spent on a dyno by stewart who has spent more time and more money than anyone I have ever heard of figuring out what works and what don't. I know how hard It is to look through the B/S I have been there I have spent years making my bike go faster. With the 500 most people want to detune your bike for you as soon as you tell them it's a 500. My bike will flip right over backwards in fifth gear just by rolling the gas on and it has open desert gearing. On assphalt It wheelies in fifth just above idle and will cary the tire for blocks I call it doing a idle wheelie. But when It really comes down to It, It's all about what makes you feel comfortable good luck and keep on kicken name's and taken ass :-D
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Hillclimb#42...Keep us posted with what gearing you end up with. What exactly is your set up now?..I'm just curious; I run my bike strictly in the dunes so I have to compromise between max hp and reliability. It sucks pushing your bike in the sand. :mrgreen:
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I burn 10 gallons pluss In my bike every time I go to the dunes never ever had a reliabilty problem yet. I usually spend A lot of time fixing other peoples poorly maintained stock bikes. I'm not trying to talk crap I'm just trying to be helpfull you can get a lot from the kx500 with a few well placed mod's.hillclimb#42's bike should come out the hole in second no problem with a 14/45 and easily pull that gear all the way up the hill. Now if every one else in that class is running 13/47 your going to hand them their ass on a platter. Then every one Is going to come over looking at your bike wanting to know what you did.Arigato you go to Dumont right have we not ever lined up at the hill? My bike Is pretty distinctive and people do not usually forget racing It. I don't recall your bike but It looks like you just finished making It all pretty, It Look's good I might add.
RELIABILITY IS IN THE HAND'S OF THE BUILDER
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yeah we ride dunes here for fun and gear up. Its alot different riding sand, though. I am not dismissing that it can pull taller gearing, or that I need taller gearing, but If I was ripping sand with no jumps I might even go taller or build for top end. I am targeting bottom and Mid range plus am riding two differnt bikes,, right after each other. I know there is faster bikes out there, even here. I'm trying to get mine to be mine and like you said before be comfortable, of in my case confident. A good wipe out or loop out is hard on strategy and confidence. I have put the 14 back on and am more confident that it is rideable even though I've yet to race with it. The Cr's I race against have a taller final drive so will be taller, if I match sprockets. If I can keep in the gas, I should lite it up by being taller and stronger.
10 gallons is quite a bit of riding in one bike. Our sand dune riding is on 750 to 800 acres and gets old after about 4-5 gallons. We usually find a good jump and hit it till we almost eat it and then cruize to the next one. Hills there have ten foot of vert on top where there is hard pack on top layer. You have to be careful going off the top or you may wind up launchin to the moon. I'll keep what you said in mind about the spacer and V-force reeds. Are V-force the best reeds for 250 also? 250 is currently stock reeds.
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BDI, Thanks for the compliments on my bike. I haven't been to Dumont this year. I was out 7 months due to injury. The year before that, I went once and there was no one there to race. We are hitting Coral Pink in a couple of weeks. :mrgreen:
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we have big rolling dunes that you can really haul butt on and that's ten + gallons In two days when we go we stay the night. I have been going to dumont for years and years so I'm sure we have been to the hill at the same time but that would have been on one of my old bikes. It's funny one year I was out there and their was this guy on a cr500 and I was on my 98cr500 that was bone stock even stock pipe. We lined up at the hill and I blew his doors off three times In a row he comes up to me all mad because he's got a pipe,reeds,porting,head work and god know's what else done to his bike and he paid some one to do It all. I sent him packing with a stock bike, I learned a good lesson that day, just because you spend a lot of money on after market hop up crap does not mean your bike Is going to be faster more important Is having a package that works good together and alot of things don't you can have two different things that on their own make more power but together make less. The reed spacer for example lowers your Primary compression ratio which Is the same as shortening your transfer duration and makes the engine run lazy the engine will not rev as fast or as far It just can't because you do not have the primary compression It takes to suport High rpm horse power, not something I want on my bike. Stewart dyno tested a reed spacer I think he might have thrown It away :lol: :lol: If you want more bottom end and midrange a good place to start Is by having the squish angle on your head recut and cranking your compression up to15:1 by milling It. pore in some vp-c12 and hold on because now its going to come out of the whole pissed off. Now you have the bottom end hit and mid range power you want pluss your bike will rev to the moon because you have good primary compression and yes I think v-force Is the best reed on the market no matter what bike you put It In.
You know on second thought listening to me might get you killed :-o
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I would have to agree with BDI, dump the RAD, go with the v force, jack up the gearing. We hillclimb in the West, our hills tend to be nastier than the east hills, yours are more like uphill drag races with a couple of jumps, ours are more vertical with ledges and much longer, I run a 15/47-48-49 depending on the amount of traction. You should gear as tall as you can pull. Everybody has a different idea of the perfect powerband, some like it quick others a bit slower. I've tried 4 different ignitions, the stock 90-04, stock 86-89, PVL, and the 01 KX250. Generally speaking I like the PVL, but on the high compression motors they don't like to start due to the low output, the 250 ignition is way quick, like a 250 on steroids, the 86-89 is about the best of both worlds, although I'm looking to add weight to the 250 flywheel to soften it up a bit. Being successful in hillclimbing is being willing to try different things, sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. by the way U2 works
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Alright guys, I have been putting some strategy to my gearing. At first was in a mind-set that I could make a 500 and a 250 geared the same and they would perform the same. That was a big, NOT! I also had run the same gearing as a buddies CR's. Wrong, try again. I have basically narrowed it down to keeping notes on trial and error for each hill. Notating conditions, tire pressure and the all allusive gear ratio.
I have the sprocket gearing ratio chart. It goes to the races. I am trying to figure what alot of guys know something about, but never use. I am not racing in long motos or on ice, on sand dunes or harescrambles, but hillclimbing. The idea is to run one gear the whole way. It is a bit like drag racing and motocross combined. Only on a 500' plus hill does anyone plan to shift.
I have all the transmission numbers gathered up, finally but cannot find the equation for an absolute final ratio. I have found car and even street bike formulas that incorporate tire size and top speed into the equation, but would like to toss those numbers out.
I see in the manual that multiplying primary drive ratio with final drive ratio multiplied by 5th gear ratio gets you overall drive ratio in top gear. Well, thats a good start, but does the sprocket ratio also multiply to that, to get a rear-wheel drive ratio? The idea I'm messing with is to use available sprockets to adjust gear ratios with enough sense to know which adjustment is the least bit of change, even if I pull 3rd or 1st instead of 2nd.
So far this is what I'm guessing the equation is, am I right? ;
Primary drive ratio x ratio of which gear I'm in x final drive ratio x sprocket ratio = overall drive ratio
The numbers are higher than I thought they would be, especially if that number represents how many times the crank turns to turn the wheel once. Hopefully one of you mechanical engineers are on top of this idea, because the more I know, the less I understand. :? :oops: :x
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Two files you maybe interested in:
1. The Gearing Chart (http://www.kxriders.com/gearing.html)
2. The Gearing Calculator (http://www.kxriders.com/gearing_calc.xls)
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The gearing chart, I have. That gives a sprocket ratio. I am unable to get the gearing calculator to work. I get an error saying original program source required. I think I have seen it before. Someone else gave it to me, but it was specific to street bikes and their stock gears. If I spent time with it, I probably could have used it. I'll try to find the other link I have to it. :wink:
Yep, BDI sent me the link earlier in this thread. It is a calculator for street bikes. It includes over 150 models of bikes, and of course it left out the k5. It also incorporates chain links, tire size and a few other specs that I have no clue about.
I know you guys know how to get more ponies out of the k5, and that is killer. Any lull in the action, I like to buy upgrades and add a little to whats there, but that isn't the direction I'm going currently. I am not dismissing your input about better upgrades and will be applying what I am learning in the future. I just like to understand everything so I can make educated choices and adjustments, and not mess up a good thing.
I have all ratio info about my bikes, but need help developing that to one final number. So when changing sprockets, it changes the way I need it, and is not like starting in 4th or undergearing the power. You only have two runs per class with no practice.
Don46 you do what most guys do, and I am sure it is working. Find a combo and stick to that, then tweak with a coulple teeth on back to adjust for traction. I assume it is gear down for less traction and up for better traction. What about a scenario like; you show up to the hill and its extremely slick and muddy, or they have changed your hill from long and straight to rough and add turns. Let's say you didn't bring every sprocket for your bike that covers the needed spectrum. Somewhere in the numbers, in the equation I'm looking for, it seems possible to gear down, but pull third to actually gear up. Or to gear up and pull first to gear down. Even then you probably would plan on a shift, but understanding the ratios, you can add some strategy with less extra parts right?
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That gearing calculator is specific to the KX500. If you don't have Excel you can open it and work with it in OpenOffice (free office suite).
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How weak. $2000 computer and can't use it any better than a 5th grader! I may have to wait on the girlfriend to help with the program. Thanks Paul. I'll be trying to get that to work this evening. :x :x
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Alright, for anyone who is interested, I think I have figured it out. I actually am surprised at how little overlapping that there is in ratios.
Anyways here it is.
1.Find your primary gear ratio. Every bike is different, even from year to year.
2.Multiply that by the ratio of gear that you are in. i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd.... by that ratio, which is also model and year specific.
3.Then multiply your sprocket ratio. Which is on the gearing chart. Or can be figured by dividing back sprocket by the front sprocket.
Here is my sample problem for you math haters. :-D
Primary ratio of 2.68 x Second gear 1.444 x drive ratio sprockets (13-47) 3.62 = 14.009 rpm's to turn wheel once.
I changed to a 14 countershaft sprocket.
Primary 2.68 x Second gear 1.444 x drive ratio sprockets (14-47) 3.36 = 13.002
The final number, I think, represents turns of the motor to wheel. Whatever it represents gives a number to go by. I have done the math on 13,14,15 with 45,47,49 combinations and compared that with 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear ratios and there is hardly any overlapping of ratios. You think I'm right on the math or am I still off? Before I was throwing a final drive ratio from the manual which represented stock sprocket ratio. Check it out, I'm here for opinions.
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some times you can over think things But I like the fact that you are trying to make your own tracks rather than follow In some one elses. You don't sleep at night do you.
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It actually stems from me telling buddies that I think I'm under geared. Then I get different answers from everyone, who should know about the cure. Then I want to make an educated change and not a shot in the dark. I started racing to have fun and now it is hard not to be as competitive as possible. Why spend the time and money to show up and get spanked by some 14-15 year old kid. It still happens, but not without me being close. I like making other better riders go for it. I rip the conservitive line and they have to jump the big nasty to win.
I realize not too many people are looking at these numbers this closely, but there is alot of performance in gearing. The thing is, I don't want to throw a sprocket on there without a clue on why or what its gonna do. The 250 won't thrash me and my pride nearly as fast as the 500.
I sleep normally, but am usually dreamin about riding, racing or fixing kx's. 8-)
I notice the time on posts is way off, but I'm not sure if thats me or the time where the site is based.
When not riding, racing or fixing I'm jonesin' for it. Isn't everybody?
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http://www.everything2stroke.com/resource/gear.php
Anyone use this? Is it accurate??
I plugged in the gear ratios for an 88 KX500 and came out with a 76mph top speed at 8500rpm. That right?
Thats with stock sprockets and a 27 inch tire height.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. WHat rpm does a stock KX5 max at?
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Nice Link BigGreen. Thats more like what I was lookin at. I think the k5 turns more r's, or definately can. They don't list max Rpms in manuals and probably can't. Also any mods in performance, change max rpm. A pipe can shorten max rpms and make it get there faster, or vice versa. I think everything has been dyno'd so its possible to get close to knowing, by finding results of a similar bike. Cranks, piston mods, probably even timing can affect max rpms. Thats where the big money is spent. 8-)
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Lessening rotating mass is the easiest way to increase max rpm, shaving the flywheel for instance.
Max KX500 RPM is around 10000?
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What ever you do don't take me the wrong way I like your approach I was just giving you a hard time. I have spent countless nights staring at the ceiling trying to go to sleep thinking about ways to get to the top of the hill faster. soon you will realize just how little the other guys really know and they will be trying to chase you down. It does not surprise me that you baffle people buy telling them you are under geared people just assume to climb a hill you have to gear down and they will gear down and go slower and they will want to gear it even lower trying to go faster. I like to gear It right to the point the bike does not want to peak out In rpms and then back it off a little Or figure out how to sqeez out a couple more ponies to make it pull the gear. keeping the gearing right at the threshhold of horse power Is how you are going to be the fastest. You should try 14/45 It's a tall gear your bike should pull and It makes your wheel base as long as It can be with stock swing arm It's my favorite gearing and I have tried a lot of gear ratios.
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That is the next step up in gearing. I'm 14-47 which is pulling 13.002:1 in second and if thats not tall enough then 14-45 is next. That is 12.480:1, which is how I think you need to change things. 1/2 of a whole number at a time.
I don't take you or anyone else the wrong way. I just sort through the opinions for a common thread or I learn enough to agree or disagree. Some of the answers seem to be throw money at it, but I could spend another 5 grand on each bike, but I'm not loaded. I know what you're saying is right. I have to pull the tallest gear possible without a bog and without being at absolute top rev. The difference is that my gearing is for steep, solid traction with jumps. Where your experience in the sand is telling you that I'm way under geared. I am thinking that I'm close, or at least closer. I also needed the info for adjusting gearing between rounds, if its not. Wish me luck. I'll let you guys know how it goes, rippin this weekend. Later!
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I disagree It's my experience with the kx500 that is telling me that you are under geared. I'm not just some sand pansy, I grew up In the nevada desert ridding with my dad and uncles who road things like yz490s' and TT600s' I road on an 80 they would climb the steepest nastiest rocky hills they could find. If It allready had a trail on It there was no reason to climb It because some one has already done It. If It was something they had a hard time getting up then they would sit there, smoke ciggaretts and drink water waiting for the boy to make it up. You have no idea how many times I have heard "GO BACK DOWN GET A BETTER RUN AT IT AND HOLD IT PINNED" Then as soon as I would get there the rest break was over and It was time to go again that's how I learned to ride no mercy and the fact that I can't find any one who likes to ride with me Is testament to that. I have climbed a hill or two that were not sand. The thing I learned about gearing Is those little asian people know what they are doing and the gear ratios In your tranny are optimized for the engines horse power output and delivery the gear ratios that work best are not far off of stock gearing I spent a lot of time and money figuring this out sprockets are not cheep. Good luck and go kick some but and take that reed spacer out and give It to a competitor That's free performance :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Well, hill was super slick and muddy, then dried to a heavy goop in the second round. Sunday was a mixture of soft sand-like wet powder on the breakers, and the inclines were hard and tacky, and was fairly dry by the second round. 14-47 stayed on thru all conditions and actually did better on slick and nasty on saturday. Pulled out a fifth, i think, and sixth on Sunday. Not my ususal, but my rear tire is toast. I've rounded all the nobbs that I have left. The rest are either torn or broken. I'm sure that played havoc on consistent traction, as well as previous gearing choices. A worn tire is supposed to help on a stock length swing arm, but it didn't at all. I did ride around a freshly groomed motocross track and really liked the way it rides and pulls the gears. 14-47 is a good choice. Any more tweaking will be a 45 or 49 on back.
My 250 is sporting a new Kenda Washougal and threw down a 5.102 good enough for second. And I ran another good time in the 250 stretched class (5.2something) and got a 7th in a very tough class of twenty. The important thing that I did was beating the guys I needed to for the season points. I'll be ordering new rubber and probably ditchin the spacer for the state championships.
I appreciate your input BDI, and I hear you that you have ridden on more than sand. I also agree that the little guys over in Japan figured out alot of things correctly. Thats a good reason to tweak changes and not make leaps and bounds. You just have to hear half of the strategy and plans that I hear, to appreciate my positive headway. Last year was my first season at hillclimbing, where most everyone else has been at it for years.
I see first hand the difference in gearing. One of my buddies rides a 750 triple and a 800 triple in 250 chasis. He has to gear down to get traction or it spins too much. Same thing on slick mud or extremely steep or rough conditions. Gear up for easy hills, good traction, big hills or sand. too tall will be hard to keep the front end down, where under gear is way too slow. No matter what though, I need fresh rubber to gauge where I stand, in my opinion of course. Thanks for the help and info for future tweaking!!!!!!!!!
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I ran a IRC 130 soft teraian tire one time It was the closest thing to a paddle tire with knobbies I have ever ran. It was the direct reason I found my self on my but twice. When I say It hooked up thats no joke. sorry you did not do better . :|
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We typically run a IRC M5B 140, and geared as high as you can pull. You could also run a tereaflex, it's even bigger. If it was hard and slick, a used tire may have been better than a new tire, if there's nothing for the knobs to grab to they may not help. On really hard packed surfaces I've wondered about siping, to try to get as much rubber to contact the ground
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New tire, new results. Got the Kenda Washougal on the k5. It hooks up ALOT! I had trouble coming out of the hole without the bars in my face. I had to move out of the rut and try to keep the bike straight. Also set the timing back a tick to the retarded side. That made a noticable change to max rpm's. Pulled out a 2nd place finish in the Illinois State Championship. The hill was a man-made hill that resembled a volcanoe. It's back side was as high and almost as steep as the front with only about 20 feet of flat on top. The 500 never saw flat ground and was landing near the bottom of a 150 ft hill. :-o I was shakin so bad, that it was hard to get calmed down for the next round.
On the 250 I wound up 4th in 400 stock and 5th in 250 stretched class. Again I'm racing these guys with a stock length swingarm and riding trails around the event, just having fun. I think they are nuts and I guess they feel the same about me. Gearing choice is sweet and so is the new rubber. New tire was a little tough to break loose off the log, but I made up for it in the middle of the hill. The majority of the riders were seperated by only 3 tenths of a second. Thanks for your input guys, and if anyone is trying to figure out gear ratios, I believe that I'm on to something.
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Good job did you change anything other than the tire from last time?
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Well, I left the 14 on and also turned the timing back a tick. Retarding the timing was supposed to help pull more r's according to another thread about lengthening the power band of the k5. Its true. And its not like other changes, where you get help in one place and lose it somewhere else. I still am going to drop the reed spacer, but haven't pulled it apart, yet.
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New tire, new results. Got the Kenda Washougal on the k5. It hooks up ALOT! I had trouble coming out of the hole without the bars in my face.
Have you thought about using a MX holeshot device? I have, and think it would be the ticket in certain situations, it would keep the bars out of your face and allow you to accelerate up the hill.
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Against the rules here Don. So is the new slipper clutches. You're right though, they work. Guess thats why guys protested them and made the rule.