KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: TaKeN on March 19, 2007, 09:54:09 PM
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http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
I just found this page, after some googling and i'm wondering if anyones tried it,
It seems like a similar Break in as " Doordies " Method.
If anyone here has tried it,
Did you get better compression ?
Less Wear ?
More Power ?
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Does every one here use Doordies break-in proceedure? Is this really sufficient for a perfect break-in on my new engine?
700 bucks worth makes me just wonder.
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No takers?
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Pat, the guy from Mototune, has had Honda RR motors tore down under factory protest because his privateer motors dyno better!
Dude knows his stuff, but he also explains that the reason his break-in works is because of modern manufacturing procedures as well as materials.
Maybe a better question.....Does anyone know if the barrel coating on a KX5 is similar to the materials used on modern 4S and whether or not a 'sloppy' two stroke is assembled tight enough to seat the rings the mototune way?
Mark
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I broke my HD in that way, I would not break a 2S in that way though...
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if you have fresh plating then you might what to take the proper step on breaking in. Had a max power plate job that didn't seat rings.
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Doug here you go
The idea of the Lawnboy or chainsaw oils is that they are ashless, that means phosphate free. Phosphates are what causes the cylinder to glaze under no load conditions. High octane race fuel has a ton of phosphate. so best to avoid it during break in. 87 oct. no lead, while not phosphate free has much less.
from max power site.
For 4-Stroke engines we recommend high quality petroleum based motorcycle oil. Many of the non-synthetic OEM engine oils work well and allow the rings to seat quickly. Do not use full synthetic or semi-synthetic oils for break in they are too slippery and keep the rings from seating on the bore. For 2-Stroke engines we recommend Yamalube R mixed at 32:1, we have no confidence in wild 50:1 or 80:1 claims by oil manufacturers. Oil is cheap and piston and cranks are not.
Did your plating look like this. This engine was put together to check everything. The top end was installed with the piston rings on the piston inside of a lightly oiled bore. I rotated the crankshaft a few times and started to notice this pattern. Just from hand movement of the crankshaft the plating started to score.
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Or was it this bad.
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K-R,
It looks very much like the first photo pictured as it has the same pattern above the transfers & the exhaust boost ports although that doesn't look like a K5 cylinder. I measured the ring thicknes at .046 & the ring width @ .136 at many locations (even were the marks correspond) and appears to have NO wear. I don't have a dial bore gauge to measure the diameter of the cylinder to confirm it does or doesn't have high spots in the plating, but after checking the ring width & the amount of light visible with the ring installed in the cylinder I would think it is the plating & not the rings. I will order another set of rings & check with also having the bore checked for high spots / out of roundness. This motor has maybe 4 hours on it & judging by the amount of compression it has when starting (I will NOT try to start without my MX boots even with the Compression Relase) never would have thought the rings were not seated. This plate job was from Max Power & I paid a very high cost on this one & will call them to get their response & will post. As previously posted this motor has great bottom & mid (I don't know how) with very modest topend, hoping this will be a huge difference when corrected.
DoldGuy
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My method is basically identical to mototune's method. Only difference is I start the bike warm it to normal temps, shut it down, check all head and cylinder bolts/studs and check the spark plug. Once my check is done I start and warm the engine again then ride it like I would normally ride it. Never blown or seized an engine in the 16 years I've been wrenching on bikes/sleds. I also always run 32:1 mix, and don't run synthetic for at least 40 hours of run time, Premium pump gas with no additives until 40+ hours of run time then I will add Outlaw octane boost. I change my oil frequently. Usually every 2 rides depending on conditions.
People have always b!tched at me for doing break in this way because it wasn't by the book. I hate "taking it easy" and when I would rebuild my engines everything looked cleaner and the pistons would last longer when I broke it in my way. I'm glad to see someone else actually did some research to show it works.
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Hi Guys
i agree with the taking not too easy on the run in , ive always been brought up to believe if its gonna pop it will do it very early on ,on my 4ts it a cheap almost "cutting oil " otherwise running fully snynth from new/rebuild it will glaze the bore also running real slow will encourage a lazy motor .
on the 2t front i wouldnt run 32:1 , too rich for me 40:1 seems to work for me at the end of the day not only is the oil for lube but for cooling properties anything less than 40:1 and your asking for trouble. at the other end of the scale too much oil to extremes will run week(less fuel through the jet) the most important for me is good warm up from cold then at the end of the day 2t or 4t there racing bikes and within reason should be run accordingly.
i always make sure the ports on 2ts well chamfered/rounded seems to stop the scuffs to a certain degree ,alot of the pistons are mass produced id check for any rough skirts and overall quality before i pop the pot back on , i had my boys kx85 where the kips sliding bit hit the piston!!! worth a check me thinks..in 30 years only had one blow up and that was on a suzuki x7 when the crank snapped in half!!
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royceymon, i have always been told to take it easy but usually cant control my self and give a fist full within the first 30mins or so to see how the motor is. i have never had a problem. so suppose i am in the middle some where on this 1. i am about to rebulid my k5 motor and the cost will be around the ?1000 mark for the motor alone. thats new piston, conrod, nicosil, mains and all bearings in the gearbox. i have uptill now been telling my self that when the time comes to run this in im gona have to control my self. what this guy says makes sense to me. but i know that when running an engine in the enemy is heat, when the piston is new it is bigger, there for more likley to nip up in the bore. my usual practice is the find a large area and get the bike in to top gear and run around in a massive circle at about half throttle trying to keep a reasonable load on the motor. the thoery being that i have lowish revs with a high speed so more air going through the rads keeping it cool. whats your thoughts on my method
by the way royceymon, your signature photo, is that donington
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Hi Jonny
the photos an old one from cusses gorse , local track at salisbury( bout 4 years ago) tryied to chnge it to this resent one but couldnt work out how to!
yeah i think the larger the bore the hotter they get ,i would try to split it up into 15 min + runs alowing time to cool , on my old 2t i would wait until the pipe was warm before riding although not letting it idle as oiling plugs was a pain in the bum, running up and down the gears at various revs would be good top and slow could glaze the bore , i dont think giving it quick burst (when warm ) would hurt generaly i found you could feel if the motor was tight and didnt like to rev and just gave it a bit more time. making sure the ports edges are super smooth is always good on a big old 500 pot , i always prelube it all with 2t when building to make sure that first bang is lubed and not dry!
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still having trouble with the photo!!
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I put close to $2000 into my engine last winter. Ran the crap out of it for 4 hours the first time out and still have the same compression now as I did when I put it together. I figure I have 100 hours if not more on it so far. Not a single problem.
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Doug here you go
The idea of the Lawnboy or chainsaw oils is that they are ashless, that means phosphate free. Phosphates are what causes the cylinder to glaze under no load conditions. High octane race fuel has a ton of phosphate. so best to avoid it during break in. 87 oct. no lead, while not phosphate free has much less.
from max power site.
For 4-Stroke engines we recommend high quality petroleum based motorcycle oil. Many of the non-synthetic OEM engine oils work well and allow the rings to seat quickly. Do not use full synthetic or semi-synthetic oils for break in they are too slippery and keep the rings from seating on the bore. For 2-Stroke engines we recommend Yamalube R mixed at 32:1, we have no confidence in wild 50:1 or 80:1 claims by oil manufacturers. Oil is cheap and piston and cranks are not.
Did your plating look like this. This engine was put together to check everything. The top end was installed with the piston rings on the piston inside of a lightly oiled bore. I rotated the crankshaft a few times and started to notice this pattern. Just from hand movement of the crankshaft the plating started to score.
I have to ask... who plated this CYL?
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Looked like a bad bond.
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Millennium
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Have the cylinder stripped down & will box up to ship out tomorrow. Will give you guys an update on their response once they inspect it.
DoldGuy
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You don't think the guy on the assembly line testing the motor doesn't have it pinned wide open pretty much right off the bat for an extended period to seat the rings???
Last topend I put in I used reg pump gas, klotz at 32:1, warmed it up, checked for leaks etc, then rode it like I normally ride and race..that was 5yrs ago. I just tore it down this year 'just because' cyl still looked new and no blowby past the rings. After breakin i used motorex at 44:1 and sunoco high test. So, yes I believe in what mototune is talking about.
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Just thinking out loud here.. (Influenced by beer)
(while looking at my 2 cyl's), and a few off other (honda, husqvarna, etc) bikes
The "other" bikes CYLs im looking at... have exhaust bridges... and they have to be relieved. compared to bore... (or drilled pistons)
With the divider between the KIPS boost ports... perhaps these need to be treated as "Bridges" and certain platers are not, or are? (I dont know if they are supposed to be or not....) (or drill holes in the piston)
As both my CYL"S have marks around these locations....
see post #4 here.. where CBX has drilled his..
http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,5527.0.html
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Anytime I see an exhaust bridge, I drill the piston for lube purposes, never had an issue.
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The way i seat rings in are to turn the idle up to 4K and let it run there and wait for the rings to seat and when they do you will know because the rpm with jump up to about 6K and then turn the idle back down to 4K and run for another 3 minutes, then shut off motor.
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The way i seat rings in are to turn the idle up to 4K and let it run there and wait for the rings to seat and when they do you will know because the rpm with jump up to about 6K and then turn the idle back down to 4K and run for another 3 minutes, then shut off motor.
Once you initially set the idle to 4K, how long does it take for it to hit 6K?
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Clip from Millenium
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk7mkgBIGLw
Got a call from my NEW plater today (uschrome) ... My CYL showed the same issues as Doldmans...
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http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
I just found this page, after some googling and i'm wondering if anyones tried it,
It seems like a similar Break in as " Doordies " Method.
If anyone here has tried it,
Did you get better compression ?
Less Wear ?
More Power ?
One thing I am surprised no one has mentioned... That in the link in the first post....this process is SPECIFICALLY listed FOR 4 STROKES! better oiling systems, etc etc etc...
I still vouch by the old tryed and true take it easy method..
This is written by a guy name Howard Richards from R.E.D.. Best describes my train of thought... (except I keep better records of compression, leakdown (both pressure and vaccume)
"The purpose of the "break-in" procedure is to GRADUALLY wear down the "high spots" on components such as rings, piston skirts, cylinder walls, bearings and races, etc. after a motor is fitted with new items. ALL machined parts are imperfect to a certain degree and therefore have "high" and "low" areas which must be mated to those that they roll or rub against to achieve a good running fit. Problems can arise however in the process because the mere act of "rubbing down" the high spots creates abnormally high friction. Friction creates heat. Heat creates expansion. Expansion reduces running clearances and increases friction. More friction, more heat, more expansion... Pretty soon you can see that you are rubbing off MORE than high spots on each part resulting in premature part wear (LOW spots). This is what happens when a motor is broken in too aggressively. You end up with a motor that, at the very least, has abnormally LARGE running clearances throughout. Thus you now have an unnecessarily shortened remaining life for your "new" motor accompanied by reduced performance. If the motor is really abused during early "new life" running, the tight initial clearances may get closed up completely due to heat and expansion and the rotating or reciprocating parts will SEIZE. So how to control this "running in and mating" of moving parts becomes the question...
First, before you even start the motor for the first time, do a "cranking pressure" compression test with a good quality, screw-into-the-spark-plug-hole type compression gage. Ignition off, fuel off, throttle held WIDE OPEN. Kick, pull-rope or cycle the electric starter until the gage reaches its' highest reading and stays there. Note the reading and record it. Don't expect a real high number because the rings and cylinder are not mated yet, but you should see at least 100 psi, sometimes much higher depending on the planned compression ratio, port timing (or camshaft profile if it's a four stroke), etc.. Generally speaking, with fuel, air, spark at approximately the correct time, 100 psi gage pressure and exhaust, the motor will run.
I prefer to break-in motors on a petroleum based oil and then switch to a synthetic afterwards (if it's to be done at all). There's lots of opinions on this...... for better or worse, that's mine. My feelings are that "too slippery" an oil will slow down the break-in process too much and I've even seen 600X cross hatched cylinders, chrome and Nikasil bores where the rings never seated and we attributed it to synthetic oils during break-in. If it's a two stroke, you can add a bit of extra pre-mix oil to the fuel, set the oil pump at a slightly higher than normal base setting, or both for the first tank of fuel, but I'd use a petroleum based oil.
OK. Start the motor and allow it to run at approximately 1500 rpm or so. Shut the choke off absolutely ASAP! The excess fuel that the choke supplies can wash the oil film off the cylinder walls (oil injection) and overheat the ring faces quickly, especially in a four stroke. ALWAYS shut the choke off ASAP on ANY motor for this same reason. NEVER let a motor run for long periods with the choke on to warm it up. NEVER ride, drive, fly or place under load any motor driven device with the choke on. It is a quick route to early death for the rings.
Check immediately for oil and compression leaks around the various gasket sealing locations. ANY LEAKS should be fixed immediately, especially head, base or exhaust gasket areas. If there are none, hold your hand against the cylinder and GENTLY vary the engine speed in neutral between approximately 1500 and 2500 rpm. DO NOT OVER REV! There is no "load" on the engine and over revving is very tough on crankshaft, bearings, etc.! When the engine is warm enough to be uncomfortable on your hand, shut it off. Again check for any leaks. Now let the motor cool down to COLD. THEN, carefully re-torque the head(s) at this time.
Now you're ready for your first ride/drive/flight/whatever. Start the motor and warm-up gently exactly as before. When the motor is uncomfortably warm on your hand, stab her in gear and gently accelerate through each gear using about 1/3 to 1/2 throttle as a shift point. DO NOT BOG or LUG the motor. DO NOT "cruise" at a steady rpm. Vary the engine speed up and down at all times. DO NOT OVER REV either! When you reach top gear immediately slow down and ride back to your origin doing the same thing. Limit your initial ride time to 5 to 10 minutes maximum, all the while touching the cylinder frequently with your hand to sense drastic overheating. ANY signs of excessive heating or abnormal engine noises require immediate SHUT DOWN and investigation/cure of the culprit. If in doubt, DO NOT ride/drive/fly back to the garage and then shut it off... TOW it back! When you're done with the initial ride, let it cool down to COLD again.
Continue this procedure gradually extending the running time to 10 minutes, then 15 minutes, etc.. You can also gradually get a bit more agressive with throttle application (slightly bigger "handfuls/footfuls" of throttle). Speed up, slow down, constantly varying throttle position and going up and down through the gears. Steady cruising at one engine speed or lugging the motor below its' powerband in a higher gear can cause overheating during break-in... AVOID BOTH! Don't worry so much about too high an rpm as VARYING the rpm. Bursts of throttle allow heating and mild expansion which in turn shaves off those high spots while deceleration allows slight cooling and contraction. Stay away from long hills, carrying a passenger or heavy loads during break-in.
After about an hour total riding/driving/flying time has accumulated, recheck cranking compression. As the rings seat, you will see the readings come up and you will also notice improvements in power delivery. Break-in is essentially complete when the readings peak and no longer get higher as more riding time accumulates. For a two stroke, this is typically one to three hours break-in time.
A four stroke has a superior oiling system and therefore breaks in more slowly. Two to five hundred miles is frequently required to completely break-in a four stroke. For a closely toleranced street four stroke it often takes 1000 to 1500 miles or even more! I dump the oil and filter in a four stroke after the first 75 miles, again at 200 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles and each 1500 miles thereafter on a street engine. Off road and competition four strokes get fresh oil and filter every one hundred to four hundred miles with me, depending on how hard their running life is after break-in. The initial oil and filter change is done into a clean, light colored, plastic shallow pan so I can see any metal particles that drain out with it. Straining the oil through a clean, white paint filter is excellent practice. You can then drag a magnet through the oil to collect the particles that are ferrous for closer inspection of potential problems. Minor break-in particulate or "dust" is normal. I also cut open the oil filter and lay it out on clean white paper towel to see what it has trapped and again look for any signs of trouble. Yes, it's a lot of fiddling and checking but I find it infinitly preferable to engine catastrophies (and a lot less expensive!).
Once it is broken-in, you can optimize ignition timing and jetting, preferably on a dyno. During break-in keep the fuel/air SLIGHTLY rich and the ignition timing essentially stock, NOT advanced.
Even after break-in is done, always warm up the engine thoroughly before riding/driving/flying per the above procedure to avoid cold engine excessive wear or even possible "cold seizure" on liquid cooled motors (most frequently occurs in marine or snowmobile applications).
Enjoy the fruits of your intense labors...... good luck!"
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motorrad very well wrote , worth printing off if your not sure , nice post mate