KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: raredesign on February 04, 2007, 07:13:10 AM
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Just wondering if you guys clutch every gear. Since it is a mesh drive, I thought I could get away with it, but then again, look at the YZ400F. That bike burns up the clutch easily.
TT tracks are intense, and if I clutch every gear, I get arm pump bad. So any thoughts?
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arm pump sucks , but i clutch evry gear , some of the guys i ride with dont . i adjusted my clutch lever so it barely has to be pulled to engage it so i just keep one finger on it at all times and that saved me from getting arm pump , that and keeping a semi loose grip on the bars so i dont tense up so quickly . staying relaxed for me is what makes the difference .
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I try to :-( But towards the end of the day or after a couple fast laps my attempts get pretty pathetic. Hasn't caused any problems to date, and it's an '89 model! If you lengthen the actuating arm it will take some load off your forarm. Just don't extend it so much you can't disengage the clutch.
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Only use the clutch for first gear, or if I have to slip it for a special situation. I have never used the clutch for shifting any dirt bike I have ever owned. Cuts down on arm pump, reduces clutch wear and as far as I know causes no problems.
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Only use the clutch for first gear, or if I have to slip it for a special situation. I have never used the clutch for shifting any dirt bike I have ever owned. Cuts down on arm pump, reduces clutch wear and as far as I know causes no problems.
That is what I thought, I just didn't want to grind my box...
And thanks guys for the good tips!
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I flipflop I guess.. When racing MX I don't touch the clutch except at the start or when I have to use the rear brake without stalling. Aside from that, it's out.. Even when starting out in the practice.. Never had any transmissions issues to day. My 500 racing never used a clutch except to start out and the clutch would grab instantly without any drag or lag.. Basicly the same as jamming the gear..
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I was always under the impretion that the only weakness to a kawi was its transmission and thats why i always use the clutch , but if you guys say it hurts nothing then i just learned a new way to cut down on fatigue even more , I had a 91 kx250 that i had trany problems with another reason i was scared to shift without the clutch .
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Those transmission issues came weather the clutch was used or not.. But do so at your own risk. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt the transmission, just saying it never did for me.
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It's a personal preference. In 35+ years of dirtbike I have never clutched to shift on any bike I ever rode or raced, street or dirt. Maybe a little bit on street bikes. Really all you need to do to shift is to momentarily unload the pressure on the engagement dogs on the gears. That can be done by clutching, chopping the throttle, or killing the ignition momentarily(drag air-powershifters and speedboats do this). I chop the throttle momentarily, grab a gear and go. Hope this helps. Cam.
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It's a personal preference. In 35+ years of dirtbike I have never clutched to shift on any bike I ever rode or raced, street or dirt. Maybe a little bit on street bikes. Really all you need to do to shift is to momentarily unload the pressure on the engagement dogs on the gears. That can be done by clutching, chopping the throttle, or killing the ignition momentarily(drag air-powershifters and speedboats do this). I chop the throttle momentarily, grab a gear and go. Hope this helps. Cam.
I agree with you guys, there is no need to clutch unless your in special situation, or on a kx 125 trying to keep up with a 500.
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You mean these things have a clutch? - I never use the clutch unless I am stopping or start (and in the obvious situations) in fact thats why I prefer the big 5 because there is none of that needed on a track or the trail like you might have on a 250 or 125. Come to think of it, I never used a clutch on my 250. I have never used the clutch to shift on my streetbikes either. In fact, I occassionly shift my truck without using the clutch (not a suggested practice)
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My 500 does quite well w/out clutching. But the '02 two fiddy seems to like clutch use.
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Interesting... I guarantee that not clutching your bike causes wear and tear to the transmission. It is impossible for metal parts under load being thrust against each other can do nothing but get worn. Over time the trans will get sloppy and out of tolerances. That is why a clutch is there for you.
Of course your clutch will get less wear and tear. So, would I rather change my clutch or split the cases.... hmmm.
I personally shift everything all the time.. only in emergencies do I not clutch. Look into aftermarket clutch systems to better tailor to your hand ergonomics or strength. Maybe a Hydraulic Magura would do the trick. I have the ASV C5 clutch perch and spring-back lever. You can get a long or short lever and adjust the distance off the grip without getting the cable/lever sloppy and rattling from the engine vibs.
Arm pump sucks but bending a shift fork or losing 5th gear sucks worse. :|
Sly
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When done the engagement of the gears will not really cause more damage. After many years of riding street bikes and dirtbike, I have never had issues with a transmission. Not to say that I will not had trouble but I never had. I think it comes down to preference. I prefer to simply grab the gear, its faster than clutching and doesn't cause grinding, for me it has nothing to do with worry about clutch wear. As with mainy things riding style can affect the life of your machine. If you do not jump a motorcycle, you will not have to rebuild your suspension as frequently, If you slow down sooner coming into a corner, or will not have to replace brake pads, If you dont work on race starts you will not need to replace the chain as frequently, If you keep enginge rpms far below redline you will increase engine cycles. We do not do these things however because we prefer ride hard so I believe everything is a tradeoff between riding for perfomrance and riding for endurance. I do not doubt that if you had a side by side comparison, the clutched tranny would possible last longer, however I doubt it would be much different.
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We do not do these things however because we prefer ride hard so I believe everything is a tradeoff between riding for perfomrance and riding for endurance. I do not doubt that if you had a side by side comparison, the clutched tranny would possible last longer, however I doubt it would be much different. c-152
Interesting again... I must ask the masses these questions:
Is chopping/floating the throttle and shifting that much faster in overall performance than pulling in the clutch and shifting?
Do you think that chopping/floating the throttle is easier on the tranny than using the clutch?
Is arm pump and hand fatigue the main reason for not clutching?
Sly
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Sly,
Interesting questions and a great topic for discussion. In my opinion, using the clutch is definitely the easiest on your trans but a properly executed power shift is not that much harder on it. A drag race to the first corner easily proves that a power shift is faster. I think that is also why drag bikes use those air powered shifters that momentarily kill the ignition during the shift. My skiboat does the same thing-although obviously to make things simple not fast. A properly executed power shift is more than chopping the throttle, it involves chopping to unload the gear dogs and move them away from each other, then shifting exactly while applying the throttle. Applying the throttle spins the main gear shaft and helps the incomming sliding gear mesh together with the the fixed shaft gear (similar to the double clutching technique required on an old tractor or bus). Done correctly it is butter smooth. I can't answer the arm pump question. I trained my forearms extensively in my formative MX years and still never get any arm pump. It could make a huge diff I suppose depending on your arm condition. There is also another technique to powershift using the clutch where you hold the throttle wide open and preload the shifter with your foot and then stab the clutch quickly to make it shift. The gears are held together by the engine torque until the clutch is stabbed. Again this is like premix ratios and global warming. Everyone has their own ideas and thinks(hopes?) they are right. I've been powershifting gears in the bush on my KX since 92 and it still shifts the same as new. :-D Good topic. Cam.
ps watch...now after saying all that I will probably blow a gear my first spring ride.....
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Nice post Cam...
Just wondering if you guys clutch every gear. Since it is a mesh drive, I thought I could get away with it (raredesign)
I think we need to clarify the question a little more:
Clutchless shift up and down ??
Clutchless shift for speed, for fatigue (edurance), to control (left hand firmly on grip), or some other reasons ??
I must admit that I do clutchless shift sometimes when I am up against a fast adversary (like Arigato or 1AllDave) in a race up comp hill or in a straight line, but my start is usually bad enough to negate any slight speed advantage from the clutchless shifting :cry:
On another note, clutched shifting can be as bad or even worse for your trans if done poorly. Pulling in the clutch and waiting too long to up or down shift without an RPM adjustment is bad. Add a lazy shift engagement in there and you will put the hurt on the trans as well.
Try some different techniques, get your lever/cable/shift lever adjusted and operating smooth, work on arm/hand strength, maybe try some different equipment (clutch brand/spring tensions, hydraulic, longer lever with perch moved inward..) but mostly just get out there and RIDE!!! because this is where we are when we are not riding and quite frankly... this ain't as much fun... although the company is tolerable :roll:
Sly
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For me, I don?t get arm pump so it is just done out of preference and ease of use. Obviously situations dictate different shifts and it comes down to preferences. I am with you 100% that the main thing is to get out and ride regardless. This is one of those ongoing debates that would last forever. Unfortunately it is 10 below here in Ohio and I have not yet finished studding my tires so no riding for me yet.
P.S. - now that I have bragged about never having trans trouble or arm pump I will probably get arm pump way out in the middle of nowhere and break my tranny thus having to push it back with my aching arms ? (get out bad thought).
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I am not certain what to think. My forearms are definitely strong. I can crack a walnut in my hand so I think my grip is good enough. I am trying to losen up on the grip of the bike though...I do have a tendency to stay rock hard on the handlebars lol. I think it is just cause I am new to riding a kx5, so yea, maybe it has to do with the endurance of my muscles...
any thoughts for endurance exercises?
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Last season on my 250 I used the Boyesen Shokout grip. It seems a little weird to get used to at first, but I love it now and I know I ride a little looser and never have much problem with armpump because of it.
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I lift wieghts about three times a week. I am a wrestling coach so it is easy for me to find the time to lift with the kids. I took a broom stick and cut it about 1 1/2 ft long and drilled a hole in the center with a string going through the hole. I then attached wieghts to it. I roll it up and unroll it about fifteen times every time I lift. That has helped a lot. I also waterski which does wonders to improve grip.
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I lift wieghts about three times a week. I am a wrestling coach so it is easy for me to find the time to lift with the kids. I took a broom stick and cut it about 1 1/2 ft long and drilled a hole in the center with a string going through the hole. I then attached wieghts to it. I roll it up and unroll it about fifteen times every time I lift. That has helped a lot. I also waterski which does wonders to improve grip.
I have actually heard alot of good with that tip...I will have to try it...
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I was using the clutch all the time when I started riding the K5 and after about 4 hours I was getting very tired. The guy I ride with said he never uses the clutch except to start or stop. I have been doing it that way since then and have found I can ride longer without getting tired. He has not had any trouble yet and I think it is much smother when done correctly. But like everyone has said it tends to be a preference thing for most.
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Shifting without the clutch seemed like a good idea but i think i will stick with using it in the woods but the next time i hit the track im gonna try the no clutch idea just to se how much that effects arm pump , seems that i only really get it when on the track . :| :|
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hey guy's, I'm new to this site but have been a mechanic for 16 years. when it comes to clutching or not clutching, it all has to do with gear meshing. if you chop the throttle and shift the gears will either mesh and go right in or they will grind. the same thing can happen when using the clutch. hope this helps :-)