KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: Johnniespeed on October 29, 2006, 06:28:48 AM
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Hello everyone! My kickstart has been slipping a little this summer and now with colder weather it slips a lot. I finally tore it down expecting to see chips off the leading edge of the ratchet and gear teeth, but found none. I looked very closely and see that the ratchet teeth are not machine surfaces, but they are a cast surface. I believe the teeth should have a 90 degree engagement surface, but they are rough cast and are angled. Putting a new ratchet and gear in will probably provide a temporary fix, but I feel that if they were machined better from the factory this slipping would never happen. I am very tempted to improve the engagement surface with a dremel tool. I need to know if anyone has every tried this before ? and did it work well ?
I value the opinions of the people on this site and will appreciate advice and comments.
Thanks John
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Apparently nobody has noticed the kickstart ratchet teeth are not a machined surface. Ok so I will be the dumb guy to try something unproven. I took the ratchet and spur gear and reshaped the ratchet teeth so that they are a 90degree surface from the shaft. Now both of the surfaces have a flat contact surface and should not slip again. I have started the bike about a dozen times and ridden it twice, it works perfect. This is one of those modifications that will not prove or disprove itself until much riding and time.
It still would be nice to hear from anyone that has tried this or understands what I am talking about.
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Did you take some pictures of the parts and the modification? Makes it easier for us imaginationallyer challenged to see what doohicky your talkin' about.. :|
Sly
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I bought a Gnarly pipe with the camera money. And now I want that new ERV3 xring chain to replace the ERV2. I have not tried to put the bike on my flatbed scanner. LOL John
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just dont do what i did... i bought a camera abbout 4 years ago but i dont remember how to use it or where i left the cord...
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You should have used the camera money on a new pipe ! LOL I went riding today, a beautiful bright sunny day over 55 degrees and no snow. The kickstarter worked perfectly, if this holds up long term, then I think I am on to something here. Also this modification didnt cost anything except a clutch cover gasket. The local dealer choked this week and didnt get a gasket in time, luckily there is an ice racer/ hill climber nearby that had an extra gasket, he is my new hero.
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I've had starter issues:
http://www.kxriders.com/coppermine/thumbnails.php?album=80
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Danger , you have great clear photos. On your photo called Rachet Gear Spring, you can clearly see the where the spur gear rachet teeth contact the ratchet teeth. This lools like a squiggly line but it clearly shows that the ratchet teeth are not shaped correctly. Yes they do operate, but if they were machined correctly, none of us would have slipping issues. ( except for your missing parts)
It is my opinion that the engagement surface should be 90 degrees from the shaft and each engagement surface should be parallel to each other.
By the way, my new KX500 was delivered with the KIPS shaft seal not pressed into its bore, I had an oil leak from day one. It was a very easy fix, but I felt I should not have had to do that. Love the bike anyway. John
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I think they could have done a better job in the kick start department. Before I tore into my bike to fix my starter problems I ordered all the parts that might be bad. I was looking at the parts the day they came in and I also thought the edges of the ratchet gear should be sharper and should match up better. I have not had any starter issues since the "fix".
Danger
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You know I rode my 90 for 6 years before it was parked, (retired up till lately).I never had a problem with the kick stater. Do you think it could be a casting problem, like they had on the late model chevy 350 motors? They used the mold so many times that it was getting out of tolerences.
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What did you use to get the ratchet gear and spur gear cut? My 1991 KDX250 has rounded off teeth on the gears, and it had to (currently disassembled pending a rebuild) get a few kicks to find a place where it would catch.
Thanks!
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To do it right I would have used an indexing head and surface grinder. However I no longer work in a machine shop, so I did the best I could. I clamped the gear to the work bench, used a magnifying lamp, and did it free hand using a small die grinder ( dremel) and a grinding tip. I made sure I was sitting down and braced my arms against the workbench. I used very slight pressure and checked the gear against the ratchet. I went around both sets several times, fitting them together for an "eyeball fit" Since nobody seems to have tried this before, I spent a real long time to get it as close as I could. The kickstart has worked flawless ever since. Time will tell if this is a long term fix.
If anyone has the equipment to do this in a precise manor and has the desire to machine out a few sets, I wouldn't mind having a spare, "just in case"
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Just an update on my kickstarter modification from two years ago. The kickstarter has worked flawlessly now for two years. It never slipped again after sharpening the ratchet teeth. I recomend this super cheap fix to anyone with a slipping kickstart ratchet.
John
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I understand what you are talking about and may try it.
But on another note my kickstart gear started slipping like this on both an 86 Tecate 3 and an 86 Kx250.
Did not have a problem until the waterpump seals went bad and the oil became contaminated with coolant/water and turned milky. Replaced seal and oil and no more slipping.
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This is the topic I wanted to draw attention too.
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It has been about three years and my kick start has worked perfect ever since sharpening the ratchet teeth.
I strongly suggest this to anyone who has kicker engagement problems.
John
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Bumping a good post.
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this mod has been mentioned on here johnnie. ive just done the same thing to my new ratchet, as the guy who'd done it said it worked well. also, you might want to stretch the spring slightly as this helps push them together, as when you look closely and operate it you can see the teeth push against each other and the gears move away from each other slightly, and this is what starts the wear over a period of time.
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Apparently nobody has noticed the kickstart ratchet teeth are not a machined surface. Ok so I will be the dumb guy to try something unproven. I took the ratchet and spur gear and reshaped the ratchet teeth so that they are a 90degree surface from the shaft. Now both of the surfaces have a flat contact surface and should not slip again. I have started the bike about a dozen times and ridden it twice, it works perfect. This is one of those modifications that will not prove or disprove itself until much riding and time.
It still would be nice to hear from anyone that has tried this or understands what I am talking about.
Great stuff, what did you use to machine the surfaces to 90 degrees?
I have a spare kickstart ratchet gear in the shed, ready to go onto one of my KXs that has problems, I'll post up a picture of the gear if you want and I'm pretty sure I know the area you mean.
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I did that back in 2006 using a dremel with a grinding tip. I spent a long time checking and rechecking that all teeth make good contact. My kickstart has worked flawlessly ever since, the only cost was the gasket. I have one of those magnifying lamps that helped see closely the teeth and thier contact pattern.
My bikes getting old, it's a 2004, but I still think it's the best bang for the buck. I still run into riders who think thier new 450 four stroke is the fastest bike in the world, then the old KX has to spank em, next comes thier excuses. You all know what I am talking about.
John
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Hey, on that 92 k5 that im re doing for a friend, i got the gears back together and they are working great thanks for the help but wheni put the case back on the kick start wont ratchet back up. any help?
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Hey, on that 92 k5 that i'm re doing for a friend, i got the gears back together and they are working great thanks for the help but when i put the case back on the kick start wont ratchet back up. any help?
Make sure you have the plastic spacer groove lined up with the spring that goes into the shaft of the kickstart and that you have the shim on the shaft behind the gear on the shaft. It's binding up and wont retract. I just had that issue with my 93 and the plastic bushing wasn't lined up properly.
Johnnie I want to thank you for this writeup. Bought a basket case a month ago. I just got my engine together for the first time and noticed the kickstart slips. I will pull it back apart and check this out tomorrow. I glanced at it today and thought it looked fine so I checked everything else out and put it all back together and it still slips.