KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: KXcam22 on October 22, 2006, 05:37:58 PM
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My last few rides I have been testing (very unscientifically) different gear oils back-to-back to see if it might make any noticeable difference to the shifting. Basically 1 ride under the same conditions and terrain with fresh oil. I never use the clutch to shift. Lately my 92 has started missing fast 1st to 2nd upshifts. That was while running my longtime favorite Belray gearsaver. For a trial I thought I would try out some ATF. Hughes turned me on to this. Never in +35 years of dirtbiking have I used ATF in a bike trans. Used it many times as fork oil but NEVER as trans oil. The result: Today was butter smooth shifting with NO missed shifts all day. Shift effort was noticeable lower. Nice clutch action too. I ended up using Dextron III. Looking at old posts I likely should have used type F. Next test will be some 10W40 then 20W50. But unless I get a pleasant suprise with the other oils, I will likely end up back using the ATF. Who says an old dog can't learn new tricks.....
I don't know what to think about the ATF. Handles the duties in the transfer case of my 3/4Ton 4x4 truck and every automatic trans around so it must be good at handling friction, lubing clutch packs, lubing bearings and padding meshing gears. It should have all the right stuff. Does it? Cam.
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I used the same Dexron III in my KX as I used in Mustangs T5. Worked like a charm.
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My last few rides I have been testing (very unscientifically) different gear oils back-to-back to see if it might make any noticeable difference to the shifting. Basically 1 ride under the same conditions and terrain with fresh oil. I never use the clutch to shift. Lately my 92 has started missing fast 1st to 2nd upshifts. That was while running my longtime favorite Belray gearsaver. For a trial I thought I would try out some ATF. Hughes turned me on to this. Never in +35 years of dirtbiking have I used ATF in a bike trans. Used it many times as fork oil but NEVER as trans oil. The result: Today was butter smooth shifting with NO missed shifts all day. Shift effort was noticeable lower. Nice clutch action too. I ended up using Dextron III. Looking at old posts I likely should have used type F. Next test will be some 10W40 then 20W50. But unless I get a pleasant suprise with the other oils, I will likely end up back using the ATF. Who says an old dog can't learn new tricks.....
I don't know what to think about the ATF. Handles the duties in the transfer case of my 3/4Ton 4x4 truck and every automatic trans around so it must be good at handling friction, lubing clutch packs, lubing bearings and padding meshing gears. It should have all the right stuff. Does it? Cam.
Glade to see you come around. My buddy just traded his yz250 for an kx500 and the first thing we did was fill it with aft type f. I have used it for the last two years or so with great results.
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I used the ATF in my sons 50cc KTMs. They have wet clutches and were gas and go's. The problem with those bikes is the wear of the clutch gunked up the cup washers that changed the clutch engagement point. When I changed to the ATF, less gunk. No Scientific testing here either. I've never tried it in the big bikes.
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i used to use the belray gearsaver, and i changed it every ride/race and it would always be almost black, now i'm using just regular castrol 10w40 and change it every ride/race and its the cleanest i've ever seen oil come out my bikes, and i'm saving a butt load of money since I change it so often.
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KTM recomends ATF in the small bikes because of its cleaning abilities and it does not break down at very very high RPM (lets just say the cluch does not engage until 5000 RPM)
I was told of a long term effect this would have on big bikes but i cannt remember what is was...mabe an old wisetail?
i think it damaged the cluches on big bikes :?
Domonde Tech has proven to me to be the Sh*t (that is mostly comairing with motors apart)
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My clutch action improved with using ATF Type F, I have always used type F. I was told that Dexron 3 had some kind of friction mod. in it and it could have an effect on the clutch. My bike would miss 1st to 2nd up shift and down shift until I started using atf.
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I just changed to ATF yesterday. I am going to try the Dexron for a while, as many of you are using type F, someone has to try the Dex. I have always heard the rumor that using type F in GM transmissions will make the clutches bite firmer and that the Dexron makes the clutches engage smoother. Either way, I see no major harm going to happen . The bearings, gears and clutches are not going to suffer any lack of lubrication. I have been using Spectro Clutch saver and Belray Gear saver, both work just fine. I was hoping a side benifit will be better kickstart rachet engagement in cold weather. I have been riding that last few weekends, and the temperature has been about 35 to 40 degrees and my kickstart ratchet has been slipping until the engine gets hot. Post more when I know more.
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I've run type F in my 01' 500 and it works good. Its cheaper than gear saver, but you should change it more often.
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I always change the gear lube once a week when I clean the air filter. I typically ride on Saturdays and Sundays, so once a week seems about right.
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I only run the type F in my 2smokers and have longer lasting clutches. The biggest part is a qt of type F is about 98 cents to a qt of name brand motor oil at $5+ dollars. I will have to try the dexxron III and see what it does. But if tranny fluid can take the abuse of a 2,000+ pound vehicle for thounds of miles then these little rice rockets can reap the benifits of the fluid. :lol:
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if only the oil companies would tell us exactly what is in the product, like food does...
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KXcam22, Hey waiting to hear what you think about the ATF. Still happy with the results?? What about the other oils you were testing??
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I'm running Castrol 10w40 right now, noticing a bit of hard shifting. Think if I used ATF fluid I would benefit more from it and make for smoother shifting? I used maxima mtl 80w at the beginning of the year, but I change the oil every time out, usually 2-3 times a week, so I made the change because of costs, I also made the change when I put a new clutch in. I heard somewhere its not good to just change to a diff. fluid with the same clutch, its best to do it when its a new clutch.
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Hughes,
The snow came and I ran out of testing time. Was lazy so did a 2nd ride on the ATF. Still nice. ATF must be tough. After all this ATF talk I was feeling quilty so changed the ATF in my truck transfer case and only 1/2 quart came out (instead of 2.5). Yikes!. What came out was clean. Been running for 7 years with only 20% of the oil with no probs. Must be good lubricating stuff. Cam.
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I wanted to revive this post! It has some interesting info in and I want to ad to that info and make it a Sticky.
I am going to switch to ATF in all my bikes, because it just makes since!
You may want to read this post about the Amsoil ATF..........
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/atf_gm_dexron_spec.htm
Alan :-D
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Hey guys, I got my 87 KX500 two moths ago and I noticed the oil level was low when I got it. I told the previous owner I heard about using ATF in my bike, and he just about had a heart attack! I thought the same thing you guys did, ATF works in everything else I drive, why not my bike. I was told NOT to switch to ATF and to keep using what's in the bike now. The bike is running FUCHS Silkolene semi-synthetic ester racing gear oil. WHEN THIS SH%T's gone, I'm switching. If I switch will it bother the clutch, or should I switch when the clutch is cooked? How often should I be dumping the oil, I only ride 3 times a week for a few hours on the trails.
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ATF works awesome in the gearbox. I run Dextron in mine and change it every other ride.
I believe you'll find the clutch action superb and butter smooth shifting once you get that other garbage out.
My K5 had some kind of fancy bel-ray syn in the gearbox when I first bought it and shifting was terrible. After a few oil changes and rides its back to what it should be. 800 ml of dex-3 is very cheap as a bonus.
Walter
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I also have been using Silkolene for years, but if it is Gears-Bearings-Clutch Plates, what wouild be better Than ATF? Please someone give me any scientific reason why not?
:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?
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I agree with everyone here Alan, I'm going to use up the last of my Silkolene and go to AFT. Is it possible to overfill the motor with oil?, I filled the bike with oil and the sight glass is full. I had to tip the bike a little to see the oil in the sight glass go down. Will it bother the bike to ride it overfull?
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Been using ATF in my 87 500 for the last 3 years with great results. If ATF can lube a transmission in my truck while hauling a boat down the highway at 75 mph I think it will work great in a simple clutch/gear box. I'm should be picking up a 05 yz250 this saturady and first thing the gear box will be drained and ATF added. I change the ATF every other ride. Looks the same color red as it did when I dumped it in the gear box.
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I am no engineer or scientist, but love this site and can't help but give my 2 cents. I think we all agree that ATF is a thinner viscosity than oil. I believe that is so it can be pumped thru an auto transmission. The ATF is continuously pumped and cooled in a car. A standard transmission in a car has 80wt gear oil. I know bikes have simalarities to both, but is closer to the latter. My opinion is that heavier gear oil may cool better and also last longer. Oil's viscosity or thickness breaks down and gets thinner with heat and time. Also in our bikes the clutches are submerged in oil, so any friction disc wear results in fine debris in transmission. It seems logical to me that a heavier oil would overcome this gritty, usually silver, debris longer. It seems like it will all work, if you change every other ride, but I don't change that often. I could be way off, which has happened plenty on here and in plenty of race tech conversations, but I think the oil in transmissions job is to cool all moving parts and to reduce wear to gears and I think heavier oils would stand up against time/abuse/heat better. I think it is possible to run a lighter weight oil in extreme cold and thicker oil in extreme heat, but have not ventured that direction either. On the other hand, no matter what you use, I am sure it is important to change frequently. I like my oil to basically, come out looking like it went in. The oil mixed with clutch debris can gel up around the kick shaft and gear and can cause funky problems if let go too long. (All opinions, No Science) :|
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Thanks Alan for reviving this post. I wanted to post an update. Last year I switched to Dexron in my 04 KX500. This thing shifts great with Dex, the clutch works great. The best benefit is that ATF is cheap. I do not feel that ATF will cause any problems and I think that it will not have any reduced cooling effect. Also in extremely hot temperature, I do not think there will be any reduced lubrication. Also another update, my experiment of sharpening my kick start gear ratchet teeth has been a great success. My kickstart now works better than it did when new.
I think this site is so helpful. Thank you to all who contribute and work at keeping this thing going. John
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Been running B&M Trick shift in mine since new.. The viscosity argument doesn't hold a lot of water,, The transmission and clutch of a dirtbike is very similar to the clutch packs in an automatic transmission.. They are subject to tremendous heat loads with the thing pretty much slipping all of the time.. Your dirtbike clutch takes nowhere near the beating..
Change it and never look back...
Mark
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Guys I'm trying the ATF in an old street bike I have. It's an 82 Goldwing. I have noticed smoother shifting, and lower engine temps. I'll try to keep posting info here as I continue using it. This bike has 63,000 miles on it and had a trailer behind it for about 40,000 of those miles. I use this thing like a truck and ride it year round unless the white stuff is on the roads. I did notice a reduction in oil leaking already. It seems that the ATF does something to the gaskets.
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ATF works just fine. I couldn't tell a big differance but I started using it becasue it was alot cheaper and like HUGHES said, if it works in trucks way not in the buke. Atf is a little thin however but maybe adding a ounce of lucas trans could thick it up and help with foaming. O hi everybody just a few words from the new guy. Not to riding and trucks though. :-D
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I ran the ATF for about a month or aproximately 2000 miles. Decide to go back to 20-40. The egine leaks seemed to have sealed up (no puddles under the bike after a couple days) and the valve seals seemed to have tightened up (not as much smoke on cold startups). The ATF was very dirty when I took it out looking almost black. I put in the HP4 Honda oil and all seems well. Still ride it everyday except in rain now (its a little colder) and it runs just fine. I did notice something right away in the shifting of the bike when I went back to oil, I had to make a more positive shift. What I mean is I have to really step down on the shifter (heal toe shifter) and there is more "noise" during the shift than with the ATF. I've had a few false neutrals with the oil also. The outside air temp is lower now than when I made the change so that may have a little to do with it. I may go back to ATF in the winter just to see how it works.
So, until the snow flies I'll be riding.
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I ran the ATF for about a month or aproximately 2000 miles. Decide to go back to 20-40. The egine leaks seemed to have sealed up (no puddles under the bike after a couple days) and the valve seals seemed to have tightened up (not as much smoke on cold startups). The ATF was very dirty when I took it out looking almost black. I put in the HP4 Honda oil and all seems well. Still ride it everyday except in rain now (its a little colder) and it runs just fine. I did notice something right away in the shifting of the bike when I went back to oil, I had to make a more positive shift. What I mean is I have to really step down on the shifter (heal toe shifter) and there is more "noise" during the shift than with the ATF. I've had a few false neutrals with the oil also. The outside air temp is lower now than when I made the change so that may have a little to do with it. I may go back to ATF in the winter just to see how it works.
So, until the snow flies I'll be riding.
After reading your first sentence I realized you are using ATF to lube the gear box and engines crank/pistons/valves. Key word was valve seals :? ATF works great for gear box/clutch but not to lube the entire engine. Is this correct for what you were using the ATF for? Some motorcycles share the gear box oil with engines crank/pistons/valve train.
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Yeah if you are using it in a Goldwing the engine oil lubricates the clutch and trans also. I don't think ATF is an appropriate lubricant for the plain bearing crankshaft in that bike.
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Same kind of bearing that are inside automatic transmissions as well as clutch plates! I am having trouble understanding that logic..........
Alan
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I could be wrong but I think trans(auto and motorcycles) have roller style bearings not plain bearings. Plain bearings requires oil pressure and film of oil between two surfaces. The ATF most likely did a o.k job of lubing the internals of the engine just wouldn't be my long term choice.
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Yes you are correct about the type of bearings in the transmissions, but read again, the crankshaft has plain bearings. The same type of bearings in your automotive engine. Except in four cycle streetbike engines the engine oil is not separate from the trans lubricant. One oil must lubricate both systems simultaneously.
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Ok, you are saying 2 strokes Yes ATF and Four Strokes No ATF, Right? I agree! :-D :-D
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Ok, you are saying 2 strokes Yes ATF and Four Strokes No ATF, Right? I agree! :-D :-D
You could use atf in the four strokes if the trans oil and engine are separate.
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Atf has some good detergents & seems pretty good at dissipating heat. I never thought it was best for gear protection compared to gear oils? I found some trans fluid for CAT etc.. that has some other additives to help protect gears etc.. I might try.
I also heard 0-40 amsoil works good?
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On my turbo banshee it is the only thing I could run clutch discs love it.My engine builder will only run atf.
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So what's the verdict on Dex vs. F? :mrgreen:
I've been running F, but can I run Dex? Can you mix?
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ATF Is thinner that conventional motor oil at "normal" out door temps....say 35 to 90 degrees but when you heat motor oil to what we know as normal operating temps of a motor cycle...That's where the difference is .
The viscostiy of the motor oil drops drasticly even if you are talking about 30W- 50 (remember that the "W" means it has the Flowability of 30 wt at winter temps and the "50" is the equivelent to 50wt when heated).... ATF may start out thin but actually maintains a better viscosity and film strength when heated to operating temps, better than motor oil does. so you can say it has a more consistant properties than motor which gets effected more by the applied heat........km
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Just to keep up on the thread. I pulled the goldwing out and went over the valves and nothing out of spec. Cams are nice and not sloppy engine cranks up fast and runs great through rpm range. Valve seals are leaking again because there is smoke on startup usually from the left bank that's the side it leans to when on the stand.
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For some general interrest I was researching exactly how an automatic trans works. After reading in detail I can tell that ATF will easily handle anything a dirtbike transmission will throw at it. Next change on the CRF I am going to amsoil synth in the engine and ATF in the transmission. Cam.
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ATF has proven itself to me. Had a piece of gasket fall out of the side cover, draining out probably 5/6 of the capacity. Noticed about 5 miles away...rode a pretty rough 5 miles of sand dunes back to camp. Since then Ive kept the KX5 as my "spare" bike on the last 5 weekends of riding and truthfully Ive rode it the most. 0 problems (except learning that ATF eats RTV=messy garage floor). Didnt want to mention til the end of the season to avoid pre-mature celebrating but seems the tranny survived (OK I was lookin for a reason to tear apart the motor to change seals ha ha maybe next season) Ive tried different types of ATF and havent seen any difference at all. If you have any issues with clutch "feel", remove the clutch plates and file every contact edge of the clutch basket smooth...you wouldnt believe the improvement! I figured the one advantage to oil was its ability to stay on parts when drained, but since the ATF didnt let my tranny eat itself away Im gonna stick with it.
Just thought Id share....
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You know, I use ATF but I have a question.
My clutch is extremely hard to pull. Is there any way that I can lessen the pull tension. I installed a new clutch kit after burning my old clutch up a few months ago, and the difference in pull tension was drastic. It works great and everything, nothing's binding or anything, but it's just really hard to pull. I'm not a wuss or anything, but it has adversely affected my quickness and power delivery... I'm off to do a search...
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You know, I use ATF but I have a question.
My clutch is extremely hard to pull. Is there any way that I can lessen the pull tension. I installed a new clutch kit after burning my old clutch up a few months ago, and the difference in pull tension was drastic. It works great and everything, nothing's binding or anything, but it's just really hard to pull. I'm not a wuss or anything, but it has adversely affected my quickness and power delivery... I'm off to do a search...
Reinstall the stock springs? Is it allowed to be so simple?
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Good ..To reply to you earlier question...use the type F..it's about 15 on a viscometer and dextron works out to a 7..so you get more clinging and a protective film with the F....back in my hot rod days we ran type f in GM automatics to get a firmer shift...km
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You know, I use ATF but I have a question.
My clutch is extremely hard to pull. Is there any way that I can lessen the pull tension. I installed a new clutch kit after burning my old clutch up a few months ago, and the difference in pull tension was drastic. It works great and everything, nothing's binding or anything, but it's just really hard to pull. I'm not a wuss or anything, but it has adversely affected my quickness and power delivery... I'm off to do a search...
You can also reroute the cable to make it a little easier. Bend the metal tubing more straight so it goes outside of the frame instead of inside between the motor. Add a couple zip ties to keep it from hitting the fender. There is a picture of a Team Green bike with the same mod somewhere on this message board. If you search for clutch arm you will find it.
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Thanx for all the help guys!!! Much appreciated! :-D
I'll do these mods, and sorry for the thread hijack. :oops:
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Bought some type F. Ready to try it out on my k5 and 250. I have trouble with them both, when I want to shift to neutral. They want to go 2nd to first , first back to second, I can hardly get them into neutral without killing the motor. The 250 wants to go to neutral only when I don't. My engine builder said he puts a stronger spring in them to hold them in gear better, so maybe thats the deal. My size 13's have no trouble shifting thru the gears otherwise, but I'm hoping the ATF is going to be the trick. I 'm also kinda hoping to get a few more r's out of them, as it seems the motor would run a little more free.
PS. Noone else I've talked to has ever heard of using it in anything, but 50 auto's. Dare to be different, I'll let you know of the results.
Results update. Shifts smoother, goes into neutral easy. I only put it into the 250. The 500 will be getting it for next race. It likes to pull some when in gear and clutch is in. We'll see if it helps that too.
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Thumbs down to the ATF. I tried it in both bikes, 250 and 500. Both bikes have had trouble with tranny. (Transmission not a he-she :lol:) I had the 250 try to seize and the 500 actually did. My kx tech said that the kx stock clutch plates are aluminum and that causes alot of oil contamination. That the transmission in a kx needs oil changed alot to minimize problems along with changing to steel plates. The gears can actually seize right on the shaft without proper lubrication. Too coincidental for me to think the atf had no part it in it.
The 250 was stuck in gear after a crash, and eventually freed itself. The 500 seized while warming it up, staging for a near vertical hill climb. I was in neutral giving the Waaang, bang, bang, bang.... then screech. She lurched forward and died all the while in neutral. I could only push it around if I pulled in the clutch lever. Cost 225 to split cases and fix it. Thats enough experimenting for me with that. Also would like to add the note, Stewart is not an ATF fan. Wish I would have noticed that before hand. Well back to 10w30 for me.
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How often did you change the tranny fluid?
I've been using ATF in my KX250's since 98 and have not had one iota of a problem. I'm pretty hard on the tranny too. I buy ATF type F by the case and change it about every 2-3 rides which calculates to about 5 hours of running time.
If you changed from 10-30 to ATF, you should have changed it on very short intervals to clean out the residual 10-30 before running the ATF for any long period of time.
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Bought some type F. Ready to try it out on my k5 and 250. I have trouble with them both, when I want to shift to neutral. They want to go 2nd to first , first back to second, I can hardly get them into neutral without killing the motor. The 250 wants to go to neutral only when I don't. My engine builder said he puts a stronger spring in them to hold them in gear better, so maybe thats the deal. My size 13's have no trouble shifting thru the gears otherwise, but I'm hoping the ATF is going to be the trick. I 'm also kinda hoping to get a few more r's out of them, as it seems the motor would run a little more free.
PS. Noone else I've talked to has ever heard of using it in anything, but 50 auto's. Dare to be different, I'll let you know of the results.
Results update. Shifts smoother, goes into neutral easy. I only put it into the 250. The 500 will be getting it for next race. It likes to pull some when in gear and clutch is in. We'll see if it helps that too.
From reading this post it appears you had issues already inside your tranny other than the spring that the engine builder may have installed. ATF didn't cause your failure.
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Maybe not, but the gear did seize on the shaft, and I changed every time I rode more than an hour, and every other hill climb. Same when I ran the oil. My guy said it was full of crap, and I had less than 20 hours on the bike since complete rebuild. I'm actually shocked at the results myself. I personally also saw a heavy coating of carbon on top of piston. We run 6 bikes on the same fuel with no carbon after a year or two of riding. Its jetted stock and runs awesome. My kx expert gave me the same lecture of changing oil frequently, and didn't really say ATF was bad, just that motorcycle transmission oil is better. And he's the one who had to press the gear off the rod or whatever.
I could use the same arguement that I have ran oil for several years with no transmission trouble. And I do not know if it was already there or if it was the mixing of the two. It just seems hard to imagine that it works so much better and seized on the shaft after putting probably the third or fourth qt in it since swapping, It could also be the type of racing that I'm doing. Warm up, pin it for 4-12 seconds and park it. I doubt that many of your rides are that way. It would no doubt do my bikes a favor to ride them longer.
Noone else had transmission problems or did and think its from something else other than trans lube?
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You hillclimbers are supposed to be on the forefront of invention. :-D
Maybe have the tranny/gear/shaft modified to accept a oil grooved bushing or even a roiller bearing? :?
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atf in general is a good oil for gearboxes
and clutches 8-)
you must change it every ride if
you have alloy plates in clutch
the only negative i have seen
is long term use wear on gears and shafts
the hardening goes off them :-o
but it is long term
i also have a yz465h and i can only run it on atf
or the clutch slips :cry:
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My guy did mention that the aluminum plates will contaminate a transmission and that he would always run steels. Hillclimbers may have to be on the forefront of invention, and thats why I get on here to add to the pool of info. I still have to have work farmed out to stay in the realm of reasonable risk. I could start o-ringing heads or splitting cases and working on transmissions, but that is a risky endeavor when I have no experience with these things and a race most weekends. I just want to know what my guy is basically doing when I drop off my motor. I don't want to just tell him to do whatever it takes to fix it. Its my understanding that the gears don't have bushings or grooved for lube, but is a rare problem that I had. Its scary though to have that squeal, while in neutral and then all locked up like that.
What about a way to flush debris and goop from transmission? Would it help clean it to drain after the motor is warmed up? or lay the bike over for say 10-15 mins?
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I ran aluminum plates in my k5 for years and years with no problems at all. The only thing I can really say about the aluminum plates being bad is they wear faster then the fiber plates. Other then that they have less rotational mass and they don't wear out the clutch hub. Steel plates are very clutch hub hungry and add 65% more weight ( over the aluminum plates)to the clutch.
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the fact that the alloy wears fast is why they contaminate the fluid so fast. its going to get the 10-30 contaminated just as fast as the ATF. i was a the guy that would never run anything in my bike but 80w wet clutch gear oil. after running B&M trick shift full syn there is no going back. i always had problem shifting through neutral. after the switch shifting seems smoother and i have not accidentally hit neutral. it also seemed to free up some extra pony's. i recently watched a 5.0 mustang go low 10 looking into the 9's with a T5 transmission filled with AFT that sealed the deal for me.
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I still do the 80wt thing but after many, many years of good luck with it I'm scared to try something else. My trany is a very expensive and trustworthy partner in my life. I don't feel the need to go experimenting with it. I can't recall ever losing a race and saying, d**n it if only I had different tranny oil. I have conciderd using mobile one full synthetic gear oil like you would put in the rear diff of a car or truck but I'm not sure if it would be clutch compatible.I havn't even done the research It was one of those passing thoughts.
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I can't recal ever losing a race and saying, d**n it if only I had different tranny oil.
i say that looking back at times i hit neutral. besides you would have to lose a race first before you could say that
I personally also saw a heavy coating of carbon on top of piston.
are you contributing that to ATF in the gear box?
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Come on Bob I lose races some times. Rick beat me by a whole tire last time we were at the dunes. :-D
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i run only .. 30 wieght non synthtic moter oil like,,valveoline my trans looks perfect inside.. i have lots of these transmisions apart some of the gears in the k5 trans are not bushed like a car automatic there steel on steel .. i also use clutch kits that have steel plates,,,not aluimnium like stock.. what does factory kaw recomend
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i run only .. 30 wieght non synthtic moter oil like,,valveoline my trans looks perfect inside.. i have lots of these transmisions apart some of the gears in the k5 trans are not bushed like a car automatic there steel on steel .. i also use clutch kits that have steel plates,,,not aluimnium like stock.. what does factory kaw recomend
I'm now runing a factory clutch kit in my bike, they are supposedly the same guys that have been making the clutches for the Japan factories forever hence the name. The kit has kevlar fiber plates and steel metal plates with springs that take man strength to pull. I have chosen to go with with the trade off of weight and clutch hub life for a kit that will put up with the horse power. I think if you go buy stock stuff you will get aluminum plates. :|
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I personally also saw a heavy coating of carbon on top of piston.
are you contributing that to ATF in the gear box?
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Naa. Obviously just rambling off symptoms that were odd. I put a hinson basket in it and new clutches and steels, ran with the magura hydraulic awhile ago, and its super smooth. It just had a weird failure while warming it up. Maybe coincidentally, shortly after changing to ATF, but I additionally had a bunch of stuff in there according to my mechanic, which seems odd with 20-25 hours of ride time. I had always ran 10w30 valvoline, until switching to ATF, which is the same price here, by the way.
I can't make myself buy a case of oil thats 15 bucks a quart.( Synthetics) Maybe if it changed color when it needed changed after several hours of abuse. The problem is, you have to change frequently, to clear clutch fiber debris, check that the water pump seal is holding, and with my aftermarket crap to be sure theres oil in it. (No windows or check screws) I don't know what caused the lock up or stuff in there. SUcked on the Timing, that I do know...
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Clutches of every material, needle bearing, roller bearing, shafts with bushings and shafts without bushing, and gears of all designs transmitting mind blowing HP in auto transmissions, all on ATF. :roll:
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Not too long ago I noticed a banshee at the races that had a see through clutch cover, and I asked my buddy that used to dirt track and road race if that was ATF in there (it was red), and he said "yeah, you don't use that?" I said no, I never though of it. He said he always used it in his motors for dirt track and road race, and told me why. Nevertheless, I started using it and it works great.
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I guess I'm doing it wrong. Over a year ago, I put Redline Lightweight Shockproof gear oil in the trans of my 04 K5. I live in Vegas, primarilly ride the desert and race on occasion. It's been on the MX course too. It's never lost any fluid and it's barely discolored. I think this time I'll try the Redline 80W gear oil with shockproof. I'm becoming a fan of Redline more and more. I only use The Racing two-stroke oil for premix. It runs great!
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i run only .. 30 wieght non synthtic moter oil like,,valveoline my trans looks perfect inside.. i have lots of these transmisions apart some of the gears in the k5 trans are not bushed like a car automatic there steel on steel .. i also use clutch kits that have steel plates,,,not aluimnium like stock.. what does factory kaw recomend
A straight 30w, or multigrade?
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Also, I went to a local dealer and told him the bike I have. He sold me some 85w BelRay Gear Saver tranny oil.
Good choice?
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I joined the ATF club last week. Man it was nice spending $1.50 instead of $10. Call me cheap :) Hope it works well as I bought my bike used and have no idea how old the clutch is.
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How long between oil changes would you guys suggest with the ATF :? I don't imagine it comes out much darker than when it goes in, so I know that won't be a good indicator for how often to change it.
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I still do the 80wt thing but after many, many years of good luck with it I'm scared to try something else. My trany is a very expensive and trustworthy partner in my life. I don't feel the need to go experimenting with it. I can't recall ever losing a race and saying, d**n it if only I had different tranny oil. I have conciderd using mobile one full synthetic gear oil like you would put in the rear diff of a car or truck but I'm not sure if it would be clutch compatible.I havn't even done the research It was one of those passing thoughts.
Yours is the only post in here I've found referencing 80 or 85w oil in the box. I was sold a quart or two of Bel-Ray 85w "gear-saver" oil as the "kind" for the KX5 box.
Any opinions on using this thick oil? I am going to try it this weekend.
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How long between oil changes would you guys suggest with the ATF :? I don't imagine it comes out much darker than when it goes in, so I know that won't be a good indicator for how often to change it.
The good thing about ATF is that its cheap and its not a big hit in the wallet every time you have to buy a quart so you can change it as much as you want. I would change it at least every 2 to 3 rides like I do with ANY gear oil in my bike but with the price of ATF I like to change it every other ride and sometimes even every ride.
-G
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Martin,
The gear oil you have is not the same as 80-90 diff lube. I will try to find a legit explanation and post up.
It will appear to be the viscosity of atf or 10-40... Please stand by... :-)
Tuck\o/
Oil viscosity Chart http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html
28pg white paper... www.americas-oil.com/A%20Study%20of%20Motorcycle%20Oils%20White%20Pap... -
when talking about "gear oil" they use different standards so a 80W gear oil ins not like a 80W motor oil ("ATF is in SAE motor viscosity) equivalent to a 10W20 oil. 80W gear oil (AGMA scale, ) translates into a 40W (10W-40 or 20W-40) SAE motor oil.") The Bel-Ray isn't much thicker than ATF.
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Tuck has it right. The 85W sounds heavy but it does not use the same viscosity rating as motor oil. I ran Bardahl 10W40 last year in my 450 trans and will be switching to ATF this year. It's ironic that I used the same Bardahl in my minibike 37 years ago. Hmmm. My KX500 shifted great with ATF and the clutch action was superior. On my new Tundra the ATF is supposed to stay in the trans for life. Thats tough!
Martin,
I would suggest using up the Belray you bought and then some trying ATF and forming your own opinion. Cam.
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Might sound like a stupid question but you guys think wal-mart would carry ATF? Picking up my bike tomorrow and from what everyones been saying in this post i dont see why not to run it. At this price the oil will be changed every single ride no questions asked. Oh and one more thing is ATF different than type F? While reading i was confused if it was a type of atf or ???
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It's both... The bottle will say ATF Type F. Or if for some reason it only says Type F, then thats the same stuff. ATF just means Automatic Transmission Fluid.
-G
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Congrats on the new bike K5,
and more than you wanted to know about Tranny Fluid,
Here Ya go
http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showdetl.cfm?st=0&st2=0&st3=0&CATID=21&Product_ID=3578&DID=6
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:MOuG-7WUyIkJ:www.phillips66lubricants.com/NR/rdonlyres/FD1D5749-16F1-48C6-852D-FFD6FEAF7E71/0/ATF.pdf+atf-f&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a
And yes, Wally-World has transmission fluid in the automotive section usually on the Backside of the motor oil isle,
along with the grease, funnels and antifreeze/coolant. :-)
Tuck\o/
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Thanks guys assumed they would but figured id ask before taking the trip.
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Over the years, there have been a confusing array of different ATF types and specifications. Make sure the replacement fluid meets or exceeds all OEM requirements. Using the wrong type of fluid may cause transmission problems and damage.
Type F -- Introduced by Ford in 1967 for their automatics. Also used by Toyota.
Type CJ -- Special fluid for Ford C6 transmissions. Similar to Dexron II. Must not be used in automatics that require Type F. Can be replaced with Mercon or Mercon V.
Type H -- Another limited Ford spec that differs from both Dexron and Type F. Can be replaced with Mercon or Mercon V.
Mercon -- Ford fluid introduced in 1987, very similar to Dexron II. Okay for all earlier Fords except those that require Type F. As of July 1, 2007, the production and licensing of Mercon ATF by Ford ends. Ford says applications that require Mercon ATF can now be serviced with Mercon V.
Mercon V -- Ford's newest type, introduced in 1997 for Ranger, Explorer V6 and Aerostar, and 1998 & up Windstar, Taurus/Sable and Continental. This is the current ATF for all late model Ford products.
Dexron -- General Motors original ATF for automatics.
Dexron II -- Improved GM formula with better viscosity control and additional oxidation inhibitors. Can be used in place of Dexron.
Dexron IIE -- GM fluid for electronic transmissions.
Dexron III -- Replaces Dexron IIE and adds improved oxidation and corrosion control in GM electronic automatics.
Dexron III (H) -- Improved version of Dexron III released in 2003.
Dexron III/Saturn -- A special fluid spec for Saturns.
Dexron-VI -- For 2006 GM Hydra-Matic 6L80 6-speed rear-wheel-drive transmissions, can also be used in 2005 transmissions that require Dexron III but is NOT recommended for older transmissions or Saturn VUE transmissions.
Chrysler 7176 -- For Chrysler FWD transaxles.
Chrysler 7176D (ATF+2) -- Adds improved cold temperature flow and oxidation resistance. Introduced 1997.
Chrysler 7176E (ATF+3) -- Adds improved shear stability and uses a higher quality base oil. Required for four-speed automatics (do NOT use Dexron or Mercon as a substitute).
Chrysler ATF+4 (ATE) -- Introduced in 1998, ATF+4 is synthetic and replaces the previous ATF+3 fluid. Used primarily for 2000 and 2001 vehicles, it can also be used in earlier Chrysler transmissions (except 1999 and older minivans with 41TE/AE transmission). ATF+3 should continue to be used for 1999 and earlier minivans because of the potential for torque converter shudder during break in.
Probably more information than you wanted and it is also based on automotive related iron not the mighty KX technology.
Pappa Stizzle
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Well my first real ride on the KX5 yesterday went very well. The 85w works wonderfully. Smooth shifting, and excellent clutch feel.
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:-D :-D :-D
Tuck\o/
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My clymer recommends 40w for my bike, can i use 75w or 80w oil without problems?
Any comments about castrol mtx gearoils?
-J
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My clymer recommends 40w for my bike, can i use 75w or 80w oil without problems?
Any comments about castrol mtx gearoils?
-J
The BelRay Gear Saver 85weight I use is similar to standard 40w.
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I use type F, and I change every other ride, and my ATF comes out really dark... :?
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Good are you running Aluminum clutch plates? Switching to steel will help a lot.
I started using ATF a couple of years ago to clean out my trans/clutch. It smoothed out my shifting, and my clutch quit dragging, so I kept using it. I thought I was due for a new basket until I switched to ATF. I change more often (every other ride) than I was ?normal? oil because ATF is almost free. Not that I know a lot about automatic transmissions, but in my head they are very much like a dirt bikes.
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i run only .. 30 wieght non synthtic moter oil like,,valveoline my trans looks perfect inside.. i have lots of these transmisions apart some of the gears in the k5 trans are not bushed like a car automatic there steel on steel .. i also use clutch kits that have steel plates,,,not aluimnium like stock.. what does factory kaw recomend
Just plain old 10w-30? Should oils marked "energy conserving" be avoided?
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Steel plates with man-strength springs! :-D
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I just did my first oil change after switching to ATF and about 3 hours run time, it came out dark as well, but I am attributing that to how well ATF cleans.
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I bought ATF type F but I haven't used it yet because my bike isn't back together, It seems kind of light to me but I was wondering about 5W30? has anyone tried it? It seems like it would shift like ATF but maybe provide a longer time of protection and not break down as easy? I almost bought the royal purple stuff to try it. Also maybe if you added some Lucas trans slip it would make the ATF a little more sticky
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My clymer recommends 40w for my bike, can i use 75w or 80w oil without problems?
Any comments about castrol mtx gearoils?
-J
You do not want to use 75/85w auto diff gear oils in the gear box. Motorcycle gear oils are rated diff, The 85w bel-ray gear saver pours like ATF out of the bottle. auto 75/85w oil will be like puring cold syurp. That bel ray gear saver is great stuff but it looks and smells just like ATF and it's even the same color. If ATF can protect a trucks tranny for 50,000 plus miles of hauling boats,trailers,bikes etc then it will have no issue protecting a simple motorcycle gear box. Been using it for a few years with great results.
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I bought ATF type F but I haven't used it yet because my bike isn't back together, It seems kind of light to me but I was wondering about 5W30? has anyone tried it? It seems like it would shift like ATF but maybe provide a longer time of protection and not break down as easy? I almost bought the royal purple stuff to try it. Also maybe if you added some Lucas trans slip it would make the ATF a little more sticky
Never use synthetic ATF in bikes it makes the clutch plates swell. Absolutly no additives of any kind either. Just dextron 3 according to Gas Gas. I still don't run ATF in the I'd though tranny is not for it
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Always use use atf type f but I have used d3 with no issues. Type f just doesn't have all those additives.
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i may be a jackass but i've run automotive WYNNS 75-90 syn gear oil in mine for 1 yr now w/ no problem.i'm a GM tech and have a couple cases and some told me they run gear oil and never had any trouble so i did and i like it.but after all this ATF talk i dont know what i should put in it never oil change :|
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I made the switch to ATF type F a few months ago in my 98 KX 250, I had been running Royal Purple synthetic prior to switching. My clutch would stutter when cold at the beginning of the ride, since changing to ATF have not had the problem. Royal Purple cost $15.00 a quart vesus $1.98 for the ATF, I change mine at 10 hor intervals.
My 2000 KX 250 is starting to stutter now, :| so will make the change in it as well.
Slideways
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I finally tried ATF type F in my red 450. Gave me a huge improvement in clutch feel and slipping modulation, which lead to far less stalling in the ugly stuff. Trans shifted quite a bit better and my occasional missed shifts went away. Prior oil used was regular 10W40 motorcycle oil. Great results overall. Cam.
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How is this for a suprise. I switched to Shell Rotella T 15W40 and got a slight but definite improvement over the ATF. Both shifting and clutch action were again improved. Rode a whole day without a missed shift - first time ever. Cam.
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I finally tried ATF type F in my red 450. Gave me a huge improvement in clutch feel and slipping modulation, which lead to far less stalling in the ugly stuff. Trans shifted quite a bit better and my occasional missed shifts went away. Prior oil used was regular 10W40 motorcycle oil. Great results overall. Cam.
KXcam, You had better clear up how it is even posible that you can use ATF in a Honda 450 before someone tries it in a Kawasaki 450f. Way different deal!!!!
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Yes good point - I don't want to mislead anyone. ATF CAN NOT be used as an engine oil or in a bike where the trans and engine oil are shared!! The CRF450 has separate engine and trans oil so I can run different oils for each if I choose. In my KX500 the ATF was the best trans oil I tried. I was just trying to point out that I got improved shifting and clutch action ABOVE what the ATF did for me, using the Rotella T (using the honda as a test bench). I would be nice for someone to do back to back rides with ATF and then Rotella T with a KX500 to test if the improvements I noticed are universal, or specific to the bike model I have. Cam.
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Been using it for two summers now. Motomaster ATF f
Works great for $4. I change it every weekend
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I have alway used atf dex2 changed every 5 gals or so (two rides top) never thought about any other, it always worked realy good
years ago i used gearsaver (when i worked at a dealership) too pricey plus didn't clean like atf till you open your clutch and replace them aluminum plates most oil will turn to sluge if not changed daily
bob
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Yep, I've been using ATF in 2 stroke trannys since '00. I was a straight 30 wt. guy. Didn't want to change until one day at the track, I had no choice. Worked just fine. Got to where I don't even look to see which type it is. Important part is to change it often. It's cheap!
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I have been using ATF for year. read about it in one of ERIC GORR's books. Works fine. Only problem I hade was in a older 125, it started showing main seal leak. I keep reading the work "cheap", don"t use cheap fuilds! I use the B&M trick. which you can buy just about everywere. good luck
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It seems that i?m the only one with major ATF-Problems.
I put it in my k5, in my CRF450, and in the 125 ktm of a friend of mine.
The k5 is the only one that runs good with it.
In my CRF the gear-shift mechanism quit it?s work and in the ktm the spring that puts the shift lever back to the center position broke, both immediately after the oil change.
I could fix both but that was just annoying...
arrgh!
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i talked with the oil reps and atf is not right for these dirt bike transmissions
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Rode four rides with ATF and changed it every two. I just went back to Belray Gearsaver. I didn't like the looks of the ATF when it came out of the 500 trannys. See more super fine metal in the ATF where on any of my KX, KDX bikes I don't see hardly any with the Belray.
Same thing with two stroke oil. People constantly switching brands. Like the Redline two stroke oil by the gallon. Haven't done any top ends in a long time.
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talked with the oil reps and atf is not right for these dirt bike transmissions
Stewart, I am very curious about this. Will you give more details? thx
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talked with the oil reps and atf is not right for these dirt bike transmissions
Stewart, I am very curious about this. Will you give more details? thx
Ya please tell more!
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Rode four rides with ATF and changed it every two. I just went back to Belray Gearsaver. I didn't like the looks of the ATF when it came out of the 500 trannys. See more super fine metal in the ATF where on any of my KX, KDX bikes I don't see hardly any with the Belray.
Same thing with two stroke oil. People constantly switching brands. Like the Redline two stroke oil by the gallon. Haven't done any top ends in a long time.
Ya you can really see the red come out into the pan and the silver streak of metal like a skunk.
I change it so often I thought it was a better way to go....but now not sure.
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the atf thing blows me away. If it needs to be changed every time you ride in order to keep it from screwing your bike up then that should tell you right there it not good for your bike, not to mention how wasteful it is. It would piss me off just because I was wearing out the drain plug hole.
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It don't, it just has such good cleaning abilities you can see the wear of the aluminum plates (they are junk). when I switch to metal plates no more discoloration. you could ride for a long time, but it is so cheap just replace it often. I also clean my air filter sometimes when it don't quite need it yet just me
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I never had any problem with the aluminum plates. I think it's far better to buy new plates rather then new clutch hubs. The silver stuff in the oil never bothered me none. I think it's fare more important what kind of oil you use in the tranny.
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i just read the whole thread agein.
Posted by: stewart
i talked with the oil reps and atf is not right for these dirt bike transmissions
i would also like to know why?
i have ran the B&M full synthetic trick shift starting some time in 06. like i said earlier it was a big improvement in shifting and clutch action. this stuff is not red its more of a blue. it always comes out metallic grey. true i ride a KTM. KTM's have a magnetic drain plug. before the switch i always had some metal shavings on it every oil change. i have not got that with the B&M, the plug just has a grey metallic goop on it, but no shavings. i did not switch to save money. the synthetic trick shift cost more than what i was running (spectro golden 80w ). i switch because a 10 sec. drag car can get a extra session or two out of the trans just from running it over standard ATF.
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i may be a jackass but i've run automotive WYNNS 75-90 syn gear oil in mine for 1 yr now w/ no problem.i'm a GM tech and have a couple cases and some told me they run gear oil and never had any trouble so i did and i like it.but after all this ATF talk i dont know what i should put in it never oil change :|
How did your clutch pack work with such a heavy oil,i think half the reason the synthetics are popular is cause there of a light viscosity with not much drag,but i like the idea of a heavy oil for protection but clutch would feel unresponsive i imagine?
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I have been using Dexron Three for four years now and it still works great, I now have a source for free BG synthetic ATF and switched to that, I have seven gallons of free synthetic ATF. I usually change it once a week costs me nothing, even the Dexron I got for free. I am always carefull with the drain plug as I have heard of others stripping thiers.
I would like to know more about what the oil reps say about this topic.
John
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Hi all, I ride a 2001 k5. I quit using maxima mtl 80w, and switched to walmart super tech atf type f . after a couple of oil changes with atf. my k5 no longer gives me a hard time when going through the gears. thanks everybody that recomended atf type f. A lower end split/case inspection gets pricey.
thanks for the helpfull tip :-)
Ruben Chavez
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wow, time for a swap! Will run ATF F in the bike next year
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This has been an interesting thread.
I have never tried ATF.
I have disassembled hundreds if not thousands of dirt bikes.
I have seen ATF to the newest synthetics and everything in between.
The bikes that come in that are clean and the air filters clean seem to be clean on the inside as well, regardless what is used as a lubricant.
The bikes that come in with caked on, baked on who knows what, with a air filter that looks like it was used as a chew toy for a pack of Rottweilers in a mud pit... typically they are very nasty on the inside.
True, the ATF bikes are very clean on the inside, usually a little cleaner than the more conventional lubed bikes.
Below is a pic of a YZ125 we were working on today that ATF was used in.
We haven't done any cleaning.
What you see is what it looks like immediately after the ATF was drained and the engine was disassembled.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/junk/DSCN0658.jpg)
The bike was true to form for a well maintained bike.
Yet, as far as gear wear.... I have seen no real difference between ATF and any other lube.
What seems to be the biggest factor to gear wear is the gear lube not being changed often enough.
The second thing we see is poor shifting habits.
So, what ever you use, change it often and pull your clutch lever all the way in, shift the bike in a positive manor, and then let your clutch out.
Your bike will live long and prosper :-D
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We've tried ATF before,but have switched to a quality synthetic.The harder you work the clutch the more you'll need a quality lube.
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I'm an atf fan all the way. As the pics above show disassemly is clean. I really can tell a difference on clutch feel. I will concede that the heavier oils are better for the gear as heavier = more load bearing ability.
I do think that there is every bit as much metal/aluminum in a dark oil as in the atf you just cant see it as well becuase the oil is so dark. I say get rid of the aluminum plates in any clutch as they're just a grenade with the pin pulled period. The reason I switched to atf was 2 part, most auto manufacturers in late 80's early 90's switched to atf in their manual trans's. So you have this & the fact that the clutch is the same as an auto clutch pack. I'd really be curious to see the flow of comparison between the 2 as its all in motion if the lighter or heavier would reach the bearings better.
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Never use atf of any kind. It will. Allow the gears to could them self to the shafts. Kawasaki says to use 30 at motor oil. If your motor is apart polish the channels. For the shift forks a.d the shift forks their eels and run slick 50 though. Best to use old clutch while the slick 500 is in the bottomend. The bike wil shift like never before. Sometimes to easy. I've seen bikes with atf run in the bottomend and if it makes a lot of hp or is run hard all the time u will have proublem.
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Never use atf of any kind. It will. Allow the gears to could them self to the shafts. Kawasaki says to use 30 at motor oil. If your motor is apart polish the channels. For the shift forks a.d the shift forks their eels and run slick 50 though. Best to use old clutch while the slick 500 is in the bottomend. The bike wil shift like never before. Sometimes to easy. I've seen bikes with atf run in the bottomend and if it makes a lot of hp or is run hard all the time u will have proublem.
DO what to the shift fork eels?
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I've blown quite a few gearboxes on different brands of bike to smithereens over the years. One gearbox had been treated with Slick50, two others were running Bel-Ray Gear Saver, another was using some expensive Castrol 2-stroke gearbox specific stuff, a couple were running motor oil as per the bike manufacturers specs. NONE were running ATF...... Add to this that I've run ATF on and off for years and I'd have to say that ATF is no more likely to cause problems than any other lube.
When you consider that ATF is inexpensive, readily available, seems to provide unrivalled clutch and gearbox action, AND it gets run in the gearboxes of machines that pump out many times more torque and hp than what we're playing with I reckon it's good enough for me. Sorry, but I don't buy the Snake Oil salemen's hype and the marketing that goes on.
Change it often just like you should with any other gearbox oil and keep the money you saved to spend on beer and chicks... (unless the wife confiscates it first).
Bushy
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Never use atf of any kind. It will. Allow the gears to could them self to the shafts. Kawasaki says to use 30 at motor oil. If your motor is apart polish the channels. For the shift forks a.d the shift forks their eels and run slick 50 though. Best to use old clutch while the slick 500 is in the bottomend. The bike wil shift like never before. Sometimes to easy. I've seen bikes with atf run in the bottomend and if it makes a lot of hp or is run hard all the time u will have proublem.
DO what to the shift fork eels?
Polish the shift forks to take the sharp edge off. Sorry 7 day in a row and 12 hour days wear me out.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion on running ATF in their gearbox. If someone is happy with the performance of ATF in their gearbox, and they have had good success with reliability, then they should keep using it.
The perspective I take on running ATF is that it has been around long before the KX500 came along, and if the engineers that designed these transmissions would've thought that there was any advantage to running ATF, I would think they would've recommended it. Additionally if running ATF in the KX500 would increase the mean time between failures, I'm sure the factory race teams would've run this in the bikes racing the Baja 1000. A professional racer racing these bikes in the heat for a 1000 miles is tough on parts, and most peoples machine will never endure these conditions. With the racing community I used to be involved with it was common practice for a lot of us to race two to three times a month, some months racking up 300 to 400 off road between practice and racing, and gearbox problems were extremely rare. I didn't know anyone running ATF.
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Never use atf of any kind. It will. Allow the gears to could them self to the shafts. Kawasaki says to use 30 at motor oil. If your motor is apart polish the channels. For the shift forks a.d the shift forks their eels and run slick 50 though. Best to use old clutch while the slick 500 is in the bottomend. The bike wil shift like never before. Sometimes to easy. I've seen bikes with atf run in the bottomend and if it makes a lot of hp or is run hard all the time u will have proublem.
DO what to the shift fork eels?
Polish the shift forks to take the sharp edge off. Sorry 7 day in a row and 12 hour days wear me out.
No prob man, I knew there was something there. Was just trying to get it. I know how the long hours wear on a guy.
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Read thru all this and I'm going to give the ATF a try. I'll post up my results
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I read all 9 pages and I see a lot of focus on cost but changing the atf everytime you ride even at $1.99 compared to the recommended oil changed every 4th or 5th ride seems like a push on a $10 quart of recommended oil.
I have to ask how many factory teams are using atf because it seems that they would want the best in their machines as often as they are on the clutch.
I just had to ask and am only asking because I never had any problems with a clutch or how smooth my bikes shifted and I've owned 2 K5s with no issues with my 3rd being picked up tomorrow so I am getting my ducks in a row on what is new and what is best in the world of K5s :)
With all these oil changes one of these might be in order :) just kidding.
http://www.fumotousa.com/
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Paying $10 for a quart of any oil is obsurd.
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I have to agree with you there big.
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Paying $10 for a quart of any oil is obsurd.
Your right.. I pay nearly $14.. I wont even scare you with the price of my 2T oil..
No i dont buy it from them. I get it localy at a price break....
http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=304667&store=&catId=&productId=p304667&leafCatId=&mmyId=
http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=304665&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse
ATF belongs in Automatic Trannys...
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Nothing Good is Cheap.....................and ............Nothing Cheap is Good :roll:
You can save some Pennies only to learn it cost some Presidents :wink:
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This has been an interesting thread.
I have never tried ATF.
I have disassembled hundreds if not thousands of dirt bikes.
I have seen ATF to the newest synthetics and everything in between.
The bikes that come in that are clean and the air filters clean seem to be clean on the inside as well, regardless what is used as a lubricant.
The bikes that come in with caked on, baked on who knows what, with a air filter that looks like it was used as a chew toy for a pack of Rottweilers in a mud pit... typically they are very nasty on the inside.
True, the ATF bikes are very clean on the inside, usually a little cleaner than the more conventional lubed bikes.
Below is a pic of a YZ125 we were working on today that ATF was used in.
We haven't done any cleaning.
What you see is what it looks like immediately after the ATF was drained and the engine was disassembled.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/junk/DSCN0658.jpg)
The bike was true to form for a well maintained bike.
Yet, as far as gear wear.... I have seen no real difference between ATF and any other lube.
What seems to be the biggest factor to gear wear is the gear lube not being changed often enough.
The second thing we see is poor shifting habits.
So, what ever you use, change it often and pull your clutch lever all the way in, shift the bike in a positive manor, and then let your clutch out.
Your bike will live long and prosper :-D
i would venture to guess that not many of us have handled as many bikes as sandblaster has. his eyes have seen it all. if atf is good enough to run in a high torque transfer case on a 4 wd then it is good enough to run for a few hours in my bike. i have been running this oil since i've owned my k5 and have seen no ill effects. i honestly change oil after 2 good hard rides, or about 8 hours.
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No offence to that picture, you, or sandblaster... As im not trying to argue, just pointing one thing out....,.. And that is... That photo proves nothing... It doesnt show were the K5 trannys wear...
You could have been running Laquor thinner, bleach, Canola oil.. etc and that case would still look like that... ..
(Bleach will actually out perform most oils in the Bearing load test)
Got to watch the Car trannys etc that run it... alot of them, the gears are cut differant... ;)
And as a point many have brought up... Woods guys, low miles guys, will never have an issue with ATF...
I have yet to meet a desert racer that runs it... me included...
Think Tom Put it best...
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on running ATF in their gearbox. If someone is happy with the performance of ATF in their gearbox, and they have had good success with reliability, then they should keep using it.
The perspective I take on running ATF is that it has been around long before the KX500 came along, and if the engineers that designed these transmissions would've thought that there was any advantage to running ATF, I would think they would've recommended it. Additionally if running ATF in the KX500 would increase the mean time between failures, I'm sure the factory race teams would've run this in the bikes racing the Baja 1000. A professional racer racing these bikes in the heat for a 1000 miles is tough on parts, and most peoples machine will never endure these conditions. With the racing community I used to be involved with it was common practice for a lot of us to race two to three times a month, some months racking up 300 to 400 off road between practice and racing, and gearbox problems were extremely rare. I didn't know anyone running ATF.
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This has been an interesting thread.
I have never tried ATF.
I have disassembled hundreds if not thousands of dirt bikes.
I have seen ATF to the newest synthetics and everything in between.
The bikes that come in that are clean and the air filters clean seem to be clean on the inside as well, regardless what is used as a lubricant.
The bikes that come in with caked on, baked on who knows what, with a air filter that looks like it was used as a chew toy for a pack of Rottweilers in a mud pit... typically they are very nasty on the inside.
True, the ATF bikes are very clean on the inside, usually a little cleaner than the more conventional lubed bikes.
Below is a pic of a YZ125 we were working on today that ATF was used in.
We haven't done any cleaning.
What you see is what it looks like immediately after the ATF was drained and the engine was disassembled.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/oemcycle/junk/DSCN0658.jpg)
The bike was true to form for a well maintained bike.
Yet, as far as gear wear.... I have seen no real difference between ATF and any other lube.
What seems to be the biggest factor to gear wear is the gear lube not being changed often enough.
The second thing we see is poor shifting habits.
So, what ever you use, change it often and pull your clutch lever all the way in, shift the bike in a positive manor, and then let your clutch out.
Your bike will live long and prosper :-D
i would venture to guess that not many of us have handled as many bikes as sandblaster has. his eyes have seen it all. if atf is good enough to run in a high torque transfer case on a 4 wd then it is good enough to run for a few hours in my bike. i have been running this oil since i've owned my k5 and have seen no ill effects. i honestly change oil after 2 good hard rides, or about 8 hours.
Seriously, if the inside of my motor looked like that I would be concerned. I use Redline Gear saver, and sim months later the stuff is still everywhere it does not run off. I never got on the ATF band wagon and probably never will, if a person is a casual rider you can get away with it, but I think if you are truly using the bike you need something better than ATF. We run extended length, paddle tires and sometimes bolts with Nitrous so we want what will hold up and I don't think its ATF. in the late 90's early 2000's we ran many outdoor nationals and I can tell you that is abuse. I think if most people paid as much attention to their shocks as they do the tranny's they would love there bikes more, shock oil breaks down quickly, there is a suprising amount of heat generated by the friction of the componenets, hey maybe we should use ATF in the shock :-D
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No offence to that picture, you, or sandblaster... As im not trying to argue, just pointing one thing out....,.. And that is... That photo proves nothing... It doesnt show were the K5 trannys wear...
You could have been running Laquor thinner, bleach, Canola oil.. etc and that case would still look like that... ..
(Bleach will actually out perform most oils in the Bearing load test)
Got to watch the Car trannys etc that run it... alot of them, the gears are cut differant... ;)
And as a point many have brought up... Woods guys, low miles guys, will never have an issue with ATF...
I have yet to meet a desert racer that runs it... me included...
Think Tom Put it best...
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on running ATF in their gearbox. If someone is happy with the performance of ATF in their gearbox, and they have had good success with reliability, then they should keep using it.
The perspective I take on running ATF is that it has been around long before the KX500 came along, and if the engineers that designed these transmissions would've thought that there was any advantage to running ATF, I would think they would've recommended it. Additionally if running ATF in the KX500 would increase the mean time between failures, I'm sure the factory race teams would've run this in the bikes racing the Baja 1000. A professional racer racing these bikes in the heat for a 1000 miles is tough on parts, and most peoples machine will never endure these conditions. With the racing community I used to be involved with it was common practice for a lot of us to race two to three times a month, some months racking up 300 to 400 off road between practice and racing, and gearbox problems were extremely rare. I didn't know anyone running ATF.
are you serious? gears in a car are cut different? i had no idea.
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No offence to that picture, you, or sandblaster... As im not trying to argue, just pointing one thing out....,.. And that is... That photo proves nothing... It doesnt show were the K5 trannys wear...
You could have been running Laquor thinner, bleach, Canola oil.. etc and that case would still look like that... ..
(Bleach will actually out perform most oils in the Bearing load test)
Got to watch the Car trannys etc that run it... alot of them, the gears are cut differant... ;)
And as a point many have brought up... Woods guys, low miles guys, will never have an issue with ATF...
I have yet to meet a desert racer that runs it... me included...
Think Tom Put it best...
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on running ATF in their gearbox. If someone is happy with the performance of ATF in their gearbox, and they have had good success with reliability, then they should keep using it.
The perspective I take on running ATF is that it has been around long before the KX500 came along, and if the engineers that designed these transmissions would've thought that there was any advantage to running ATF, I would think they would've recommended it. Additionally if running ATF in the KX500 would increase the mean time between failures, I'm sure the factory race teams would've run this in the bikes racing the Baja 1000. A professional racer racing these bikes in the heat for a 1000 miles is tough on parts, and most peoples machine will never endure these conditions. With the racing community I used to be involved with it was common practice for a lot of us to race two to three times a month, some months racking up 300 to 400 off road between practice and racing, and gearbox problems were extremely rare. I didn't know anyone running ATF.
are you serious? gears in a car are cut different? i had no idea.
Why do you think thre is Hypoid oil, HP oil, and regular gear oil... The way the gear Wipes across itself changes the way the oil works.... Minor changes to gear tooth profile does alot of things.
My Old triumphs need HP oil, because they will wipe themselfs clean if you ran anything else.. so the Higher pressure aditives are needed to keep some film strength there..
Im leaving to go to the desert In 10min... when I get back, Ill take some HIGH REZ pictures of a old triumph gear, vs a K5 gear.... Lots of differances in tooth profile..
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if i had any doubts about the oil i use then trust me, i would use something different. i do not run the baja 1000 on my bike so i see no need to use $20.00 a quart oil in my tranny. i should have known better than to input on this thread. excuse me, i need to go beat my head on the garage wall.
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No offence to that picture, you, or sandblaster... As im not trying to argue, just pointing one thing out....,.. And that is... That photo proves nothing... It doesnt show were the K5 trannys wear...
You could have been running Laquor thinner, bleach, Canola oil.. etc and that case would still look like that... ..
(Bleach will actually out perform most oils in the Bearing load test)
Got to watch the Car trannys etc that run it... alot of them, the gears are cut differant... ;)
And as a point many have brought up... Woods guys, low miles guys, will never have an issue with ATF...
I have yet to meet a desert racer that runs it... me included...
Think Tom Put it best...
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on running ATF in their gearbox. If someone is happy with the performance of ATF in their gearbox, and they have had good success with reliability, then they should keep using it.
The perspective I take on running ATF is that it has been around long before the KX500 came along, and if the engineers that designed these transmissions would've thought that there was any advantage to running ATF, I would think they would've recommended it. Additionally if running ATF in the KX500 would increase the mean time between failures, I'm sure the factory race teams would've run this in the bikes racing the Baja 1000. A professional racer racing these bikes in the heat for a 1000 miles is tough on parts, and most peoples machine will never endure these conditions. With the racing community I used to be involved with it was common practice for a lot of us to race two to three times a month, some months racking up 300 to 400 off road between practice and racing, and gearbox problems were extremely rare. I didn't know anyone running ATF.
are you serious? gears in a car are cut different? i had no idea.
Why do you think thre is Hypoid oil, HP oil, and regular gear oil... The way the gear Wipes across itself changes the way the oil works.... Minor changes to gear tooth profile does alot of things.
My Old triumphs need HP oil, because they will wipe themselfs clean if you ran anything else.. so the Higher pressure aditives are needed to keep some film strength there..
Im leaving to go to the desert In 10min... when I get back, Ill take some HIGH REZ pictures of a old triumph gear, vs a K5 gear.... Lots of differances in tooth profile..
that photo of sandblasters is not what i was refering to. i was speaking about the facts he pointed out about the trannies he has torn down. no need to prove anything about gears to me. i was being sarcastic. i have seen more gears in my short life than most of you will in a lifetime. use whatever oil you want, i matters not to me. i use what i have proven to work for my application and that is all i need.
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if i had any doubts about the oil i use then trust me, i would use something different. i do not run the baja 1000 on my bike so i see no need to use $20.00 a quart oil in my tranny. i should have known better than to input on this thread. excuse be, i need to go beat my head on the garage wall.
Maddoggy... I wasn't trying to argue with you, or say your wrong in any way... Just having a Gentlemanly conversation for the further benefit of everyone.. more facts out there, the more educated decision someone else can make one way or the other....
One of which is the picture of the cases shows nothing of wear, miles, load, etc...
Like I said before... Ill plow 200miles in a weekend... Little different than most people...
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For whatever anyone thinks/believes this might be worth....
A few years ago I had the chance to corner an oil 'expert'. It was great. He was extremely practical about the mechanics of oil.
When I brought up motorcycles, he brought up airplanes! Pointing out that airplanes, automobiles, and motorcycles typically operate at three different RPM ranges. His point was that oils are designed/formulated to withstand different 'shear' stresses...the oil is worked differently in 3200 - 4500 - 10000 RPM motors.
Mark
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An automatic transmission has planetaries not gears and uses fluid pressure to apply pressure to the disks so it seems like putting atf in a manual transmission would be more like putting it in a 2 stroke tranny.
I don't want to insult anyone or flame anyone so I'm just asking here and while my riding ability is above average my mechanical skills are fairly weak but I have owned a couple 500 and 600hp twin turbo 7.3 trucks and had 3 trannys go out when truck pulling then finally purchased a 7k ATS transmission so I am more familiar with the truck trannys. The ford trannys pre 03 had aluminum planetaries and when they got hot the grooves would fail since they were on steel input intermediate and output shafts but ford fixed that and ATS uses all billet planetaries and shafts so no problems.
My truck I just sold and this shows start to finish everything painted plated or polished even the frame and axle housings even springs were powdercoated and 4.10 gears front and back locker in back tru-trac in front best of everything.
http://rides.webshots.com/album/549551609pmDqVO
(http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/15583/2895908710034986786S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2895908710034986786zgXZgG)
(http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/46594/2085229190034986786S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2085229190034986786YGmhnZ)
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Hey Martin,
If your motor is apart polish the channels. For the shift forks a.d the shift forks their eels and run slick 50 though.
I have a few very good friends from the south. I'm pretty sure the translation is:
"Completely Polish the drive shaft and the out put shaft.
Polish the inside of the gears (where they ride on the drive shaft and the output shaft) , and the shift forks themselves, and their ends.
Put the engine together with Slick 50 instead of just motor oil "
:-D
Tuck\o/
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Well im trying to old atf in the gear box.. im kind of sick of spending 25bucks on a quart of oil.. im just wondering if it would be better to use the type f insted of the regular stardard aft .. i havnt taken it for a ride yet but i noticed right away that the clutch is alot more easier to pull now ..01 kx523
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I would use type f( I have for decades). Change often.
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i wonder if i should change that out right now then.. or wait after a ride ..
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When I started using ATF, I was told only to use type f. Never inquired why though, sorry.
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I like the newer oem synthetic's , or b&m trick shift.
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i went for the first ride yesterday using the atf type f . it was about 20c out and i noticed the bike was really hot after about 45 min of riding.. Im trying 50/50 motul and atf type f today to see if theres a difference
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we will see the outcome today when i go riding again
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something i just came across, every body. motocross and offroad : performance hand book. by Eric Gorr. pg. 193
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you gotta link or something like that ..
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http://books.google.com/books?id=4MealMAQSeIC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=kawasaki+KX+500+engine+modifications&source=bl&ots=16u6mMQvoB&sig=LwxstzRxTp5oWP6T2mbx8Kflzs0&hl=en&ei=B-EwTsXDGNPPgAeYyd3-DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFIQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q&f=false
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That link has some good basic info. They talk about using ATF for better clutch engagement but, if 3rd gear is weak I would rather run a oil that would better hold up and protect the shift forks and gears better if that is the weak link in the tranny.
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the gear is not weak, they said it wears quicker because its used the most and takes the hardest hit from the brutal k5
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Wouldn't the 3rd gear wear depend on where and how you ride? East coast enduros would wear that gear less than a west coast desert rider for example.
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you are right 454SS. EGorr is probably refer to his trannies, and his type of riding. like your user name, do you own one, what year, model. i had a 70 SS396 4 speed.
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As mentioned before, we've used Type-F for many years and numerous bikes with no ill affects. Many of these bikes were mostly race bikes that put in a 17 enduro season along with some hare scrambles and multi-day dual sports. But the hesitance is understandable.
I have a 90 454SS truck. Would love to have almost any year\motor configuration of a chevelle\camaro of that generation!
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An automatic transmission has planetaries not gears and uses fluid pressure to apply pressure to the disks so it seems like putting atf in a manual transmission would be more like putting it in a 2 stroke tranny.
I don't want to insult anyone or flame anyone so I'm just asking here and while my riding ability is above average my mechanical skills are fairly weak but I have owned a couple 500 and 600hp twin turbo 7.3 trucks and had 3 trannys go out when truck pulling then finally purchased a 7k ATS transmission so I am more familiar with the truck trannys. The ford trannys pre 03 had aluminum planetaries and when they got hot the grooves would fail since they were on steel input intermediate and output shafts but ford fixed that and ATS uses all billet planetaries and shafts so no problems.
My truck I just sold and this shows start to finish everything painted plated or polished even the frame and axle housings even springs were powdercoated and 4.10 gears front and back locker in back tru-trac in front best of everything.
http://rides.webshots.com/album/549551609pmDqVO
(http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/15583/2895908710034986786S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2895908710034986786zgXZgG)
(http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/46594/2085229190034986786S425x425Q85.jpg)[/UR
(http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2085229190034986786YGmhnZ)
i dont mean to be rude, but i believe planetaries is short for PLANETARY GEAR SET, which has straight cut gears, same as our dirt bike trannies. which in an auto trans is driven by a WET CLUTCH SYSTEM simular to the trannies in motorcycles. i am no expert by any means, but logic tells me that if the auto trannies use atf for the wet clutch drive system in them . it should be excellent for our trannies.a big question is gear shear, but i think motorad said that bleach has a better shear value. just some more thoughts to throw in the mix.
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i love this thread!!! everyone trying to convince everyone else why the oil they prefer is best!!!!
there is only one way to tell if atf is better or worse than the recommended 10w40
you would take 2 brand new never ridden kx500s, fill one with atf and the other with oil.
now run them under identical conditions until failure and see who wins.
just because you put ANY brand of oil in ANY bike and then 2 hours later you blow the trans, or clutch probably doesnt mean that oil caused your failure.
i run atf in my 94. i think it is the main reason i made it back to camp when i burned up my clutch at the dunes. at low rpm the plates would grab and pull me up hills but it would let go when the engine wound up. it was 95 degress out, and i had a 10 scoop paddle tire. when i did get back to camp i dumped the atf and i put in oil. the bike lost all forward drive completely. when i pulled the bike apart i took out what im pretty sure was the original clutch with the aluminum plates. there were grooves in each plate 1-2 mm deep. that was not ATFs fault in my opinion. now of course i know what some of you will say...........how do you know its the original clutch.. ........well i dont!!! ive had this bike 9 months. but i have taken apart a lot of bikes and its not hard to tell when something has been apart and has not.
i now have a new tusk racing clutch in with a fresh batch of atf and it works quite well. i like how my particular bike shifts with the atf so i continue to use it.
so there is yet another pretty useless testimonial for ATF over the manufacturer recommended lubricant.
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I don't understand why some people get their panties all up in a bunch over oils .
When was the last time the AVERAGE weekend rider blew his tranny from running the incorrect type of oil ? You're not going to blow a tranny from running 90wt gear oil instead of ATF and your,e not going to blow your tranny from running ATF instead of 90wt gear oil.. However you will possibly notice subtle differences in clutch performance especially after the plates heat up. The OTHER function of your trans oil is to keep the clutch plates cool and not burn. The smaller the engine, the more critical the choice becomes as clutch abuse get much greater on a KX85 vs a KX500 . I tend to stay away from thicker viscosity oils as the clutch plates tend to swell and fade under elevated abuse. When I was racing 125's I gained a lot of respect for Spectro Clutch Saver SX . Seemed to do a great job at minimizing clutch fade vs. multi viscosity oils . Recently I tossed in a qt of 10w40 Castrol MC oil in my KX500, and I didn't notice a bit of difference. So my .02 is run whatever you're comfortable with , don't argue with other peoples oil preferences, and always remember..... "any oil is better than no oil" :-D
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I don't understand why some people get their panties all up in a bunch over oils .
When was the last time the AVERAGE weekend rider blew his tranny from running the incorrect type of oil ? You're not going to blow a tranny from running 90wt gear oil instead of ATF and your,e not going to blow your tranny from running ATF instead of 90wt gear oil.. However you will possibly notice subtile differences in clutch performance especially after the pleates heat up. The OTHER function of your trans oil is to keep the clutch plates cool and not burn. The smaller the engine, the more critical the choice becomes as clutch abuse get much greater on a KX85 vs a KX500 . I tend to stay away from thicker viscosity oils as the clutch plates tend to swell and fade under elevated abuse. When I was racing 125's I gained a lot of respect for Spectro Clutch Saver SX . Seemed to do a great job at minimising clutch fade vs. multi viscosity oils . Recently I tossed in a qt of 10w40 Castrol MC oil in my KX500, and I didn't notice a bit of dirfference. So my .02 is run whatever you're comfortable with , don't argue with other peoples oil preferences, and always remember..... "any oil is better than no oil" :-D
and change it often :-D
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Oatmeal. Snoqualmie Falls oatmeal. Mixed with non-pasturized milk. Change it once a month. Eat it. Has more minerals in it from clutch and disk wear. Never had a problem, better shifting. Really. No kidding. Smells good too!
Have to see controlled tests on oil types to validate wear on parts to have oils tried and "looks good". Anything else is an opinion only. Had a friend that said sniffing gas was not harmful. Well, not for a few years anyway...
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www.bobistheoilguy.com
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Funny you should mention that! A shop I worked in got a case of free test kits to send in for our "fleet" vehicles. Not sure any got used for the "fleet" vehicles but they were sure nice to have!
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i got a can of 4 stroke motor oil and wondering if it is safe to use in the 2 stroke transmission?
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Yes, 4T Tranny oil would be just fine.
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Yes, 4T Tranny oil would be just fine.
i figured so being that the 4t oil is made for both motor and tranny, but how often do you thing it needs changing?
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Most guys will tell you more often is better. I would shoot for every 4-6 hours, or more often if you are a clutch abuser or go on a hard ride. Oil is cheap compared to the things it's protecting. :-)
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but how often do you thing it needs changing?
depending on how long of a ride I'll do in one day, I'll change mine between every ride, to every other ride....that's why I had that 2 stage drain plug made...constantly changing it.
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but how often do you thing it needs changing?
depending on how long of a ride I'll do in one day, I'll change mine between every ride, to every other ride....that's why I had that 2 stage drain plug made...constantly changing it.
any chance i can buy one of those drain plugs?
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unless you're gonna be running aluminum plates like me...you shouldn't have to change it as often as I do.
it's simple enough to make one, providing you or someone you know has access to a nice stable drill press, and M6 tap....just need to go slow when drilling, with lots of lube.
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Only used ATF in a bike once. In a brand new bike, with less than 30hrs use, every bearing in the transmission was toast. The rollers in one bearing were so badly worn, it would only rotate in one direction. The oil was changed every 3hrs or less. Costly experience. Won't happen again.
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ive been experiencing hard shift lately when going from 3rd to 4th. so i tried changing the clutch shift pin the plates the external shift mechanism the gear drum shift drum transmission forks pins and not once did i think it was the transmission lubricant that i was using could cause hard shifting.but now that ive read this thread it all seems to point at the lubricant being the culprit. it takes a minute for the 10/40 synthetic lucas high performance motorcycle oil to thin out and of i were to putt putt around for a good ten minutes i bet i wouldnt experience that hard shift. but i cant friggen stand not being able to shoot through a 1 down 4 up pattern with my left foot as fast as i can when distance allows for it. im putting atf in the case as soon as i get off work today. i think ill center the oil pan and pull the plug before i go . i hope im done with the hard shift crap , . because quite frankly i think im out of things to replace other than the lubricant...
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Well... there is some huge battles raging about oils so let me step in and stir this turd pot and see where it leads..
Before I switched to Amsoil I use to run ATF once a year or so to clean out the gear box.
It did help with shifting.
Since switching to Amsoil 3 years ago I have not had to do it once.
While running ATF is inexpensive and will help clean your trans out I don't feel as though it provides enough of the correct lubrication you need for longevity.
If it were me, I would run the ATF for one ride then switch to a different gear oil.
Amsoil Motorcycle 10/40 synthetic seems to work pretty good.
Recently I saw a engine that has been running Royal Purple Synthetic and it was one of the cleanest engines I have ever taken apart so I may switch to it with my next oil change.
And of course there are a million others.
So let the raging begin :-D 8-)
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yup...I've been running Amsoil the past 2 years...very happy with it...but I change my oil more than most too.
I used to spend stupid money on GearSaver....though I never had an issue with it, I'll never use it again, unless it's an emergency of course.
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Well s.b if that's the turd you're stirrin' then poop is good food. I'll have to run the ATF a couple more times just to douche that m'er f'er out real good. All I can say is that it had to be the synthetic mixed with residual conventional eventually gumming up the works in there. I think the atf needs to spend a few hours in there yet. It was one hell of an improvement. I didn't have to be the guy out there cussing at his dust cloud heading home out of ideas what to tear apart today. The only thing I can share with you guys here is a list of what not to use , do , or try in relation to the bike I fell in love with the first time I ride it. Who distributes amsoil? Dies Napa carry it? Where the bleep to I find the stuff you're using? Oh Nevermind ....EBAY! Now what is the product exactly called, weight ?viscosity?synthetic ? high performance ? The please and the thank you....
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(http://www.synthetic-solutions.com/photosproduct/10w40_motorcycle-full-jbd.jpg)
I get mine at Coastal Farms :lol:
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I use the Amsoil Dirtbike 10w-60
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Thank you that's what I needed perfect . And about that lighting system AL25. I know it's quite pricey but if I were to take that hit in the pocketbook then I'd be riding my k5 at night? No problem?
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Well... there is some huge battles raging about oils so let me step in and stir this turd pot and see where it leads..
Before I switched to Amsoil I use to run ATF once a year or so to clean out the gear box.
It did help with shifting.
Since switching to Amsoil 3 years ago I have not had to do it once.
While running ATF is inexpensive and will help clean your trans out I don't feel as though it provides enough of the correct lubrication you need for longevity.
If it were me, I would run the ATF for one ride then switch to a different gear oil.
Amsoil Motorcycle 10/40 synthetic seems to work pretty good.
Recently I saw a engine that has been running Royal Purple Synthetic and it was one of the cleanest engines I have ever taken apart so I may switch to it with my next oil change.
And of course there are a million others.
So let the raging begin :-D 8-)
CORRECT
75/85 GL4 {most motorcycle gear oils } or 5/30w engine would be my choice / any thing higher spec {eg gl5 } is not good for the yellow metals in gearbox
http://www.gtfours.co.uk/what/atf/atf.htm
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I ran the atf for a week or so. Then I found a local amsoil dealer who is able to get the "dirt" 10/40 motorcycle oil. Have had no trouble at all with it. Other than its expensive as hell. So it gets drained in the clean pan and gets used again. Yes it does.
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This thread runs back years and more than a few people have asked "What is it that Kawasaki recommends for the transmission?". Well, on page 11 dieselbeef has put up a link to www.bobistheoilman.com. His paper is very informative and comprehensive and here's (half) your answer. Under Hydrocracking (Predominately Group II) he writes the following: "Chevron commercialized this technology for fuels production in the late 1950’s. In 1969 the first hydrocracker for Base Oil Manufacturing was commercialized in Idemitsu Kosan Company’s Chiba Refinery using technology licensed by Gulf." Idemitsu is the oil that Kawasaki recommended; although they don't say exactly which ones and names of oils constantly change.
Of course Idemitsu oil isn't available everywhere. If you live in the UK, New Zealand or Australia, or on the Indian Subcontinent, Castrol is often the oil of choice, in part for historical reasons. Castrol also make one of, if not the best oil available and getting hold of Castor based oil in the UK is a doddle, because historically it's been popular. (Spitfires ran on it, for instance). Similarly people in America often choose Amsoil because it's American and available. I'm sure you can buy Amsoil in the UK, but I never saw it sold locally to where I lived.
I've taken a photo of my '87 KX500 airbox, and it still has the original sticker on it recommending Idemitsu oil. (The KX has spent its life in Mexico and where I live we have a semi-desert environment. The bike has suffered what Foxx4Beaver calls "Mexican Modifications" - I would also call it "Mexican Malpractice" - but one thing it hasn't suffered from is corrosion, it still has nearly all the original stickers on it.)
The KX hasn't been used in years; if I were in the UK I'd choose to put Castrol oil in it, and the premix would be R40 or a more modern castor based equivalent. I see so much written by people on this subject, but very little of it is subjective. They haven't used it and just repeat what they've read or heard - a lot of it simply old wives' tales. If anyone want's to know how it performs in 2 strokes, I've used it in all mine, though not exclusively (and also mixed with other 2T oils), for well over 30 years - so just ask.
Having read through the whole of this topic I have decided that I'm going to use an ATF oil in the transmission the first time, not just to try it out, but also help to flush out the years of neglect and whatever it had in it, after which I shall switch to a gearbox/clutch saver type oil. The premix will be Shell Advance Racing M SAE 30 - a castor/synthetic combination, followed by (for comparison), Silkolene PRO KR2 Castor/Ester Synthetic 2T. Both are castor oils I've not used before. Jonnie
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You know, I use ATF but I have a question.
My clutch is extremely hard to pull. Is there any way that I can lessen the pull tension. I installed a new clutch kit after burning my old clutch up a few months ago, and the difference in pull tension was drastic. It works great and everything, nothing's binding or anything, but it's just really hard to pull. I'm not a wuss or anything, but it has adversely affected my quickness and power delivery... I'm off to do a search...
You can get the DEP extended clutch arm OR Magura hydraulic clutch. I use both. Its as light as 250F.
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Back in the eighties i used to race the KX's amateurishly. I was in my mid 20's and definitely broke. Me and my buddy bought some BelRay gear oil to use one day to get away from the 10W40 we always used, and we noticed right off, that this stuff looks like ATF. So after that first bottle we started getting the ATF and running it. We figured in a transmission was a transmission, right? We never looked back after that. Shifts were better, revs were better and clutches were better and lasted longer. Win all the way around. I still use it on the 2 smokers.