KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: jolly green thumper on August 08, 2006, 05:19:37 AM
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Using Klotz R50 synthetic oil. Can I run a leaner mixture other than the recomended 32:1. Would 40 or 50 to 1 work without any engine problems. Dealer said it "should be" OK. Has anyone tried these ratios and what where the results.
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I've been running Klotz R50 full synthetic @ 42:1 for almost 20 years never had a mixture related engine failure yet......
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40:1 Yamalube.
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Amsoil @ 100:1 with no issues for 3+ years.
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Amsoil Sabre Pro 100:1 in all my 2 strokes for the last 20 + years. Why clog up your gas with all the extra oil when you dont need to?
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I ran Bel-Ray MC1 @ 50:1+. Could have ran less oil, but I also ran super high RPM's drags with a PVL and ended up locking it up. Ran 32:1 after that. Figured a little oil couldn't hurt @ 8000 rpms.
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Some of you guys run 100:1 ratios???????!!!!!!!
Well to each his own. I don't care how good the oil is, 100:1 is living on the edge IMO......... and I guess my next question is why?
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40:1 Yamalube.
Yamalube 2-R @ 32:1. Yamalube 2-R is the best.
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Yamalube 2-R @ 32:1. Yamalube 2-R is the best.
Excellent oil. I ran it in my old YZ250 forever. I also ran 2-R + 2-W in my GP1200R waverunner. Which ever was available at the Yamaha dealership. lol
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Yamalube 2R 40:1 Not too expensive and you can get it in a pinch just about anywhere that sells MX parts. Sly
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You will find that the Yamalube 2-R will keep you engine clean. You guy's need to try Yamaha's Ring Free.
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I raced for years at 85:1 with Belray MC-1 but now I use a tame 60:1. My Yamaha outboard asks for 100:1. IMO lean with good oil is where it's at. Cam.
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Polar,
You asked why. Main reason is that oil burns at a much hotter temperature than gas. If your oil can deliver sufficient lubrication at a leaner ratio then your engine will run cooler since it is burning less oil. Cam.
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I raced for years at 85:1 with Belray MC-1 but now I use a tame 60:1. My Yamaha outboard asks for 100:1. IMO lean with good oil is where it's at. Cam.
I am by no means arguing, so don't take my posts as just that, but the reason outboard and watercraft engines can tolerate a 100:1 oil ratio is #1, there is NO dirt/dust on water, #2) the relative rpm loading of all marine 2 strokes is no where near the same levels as say a 2 stroke MX bike. Snowmobiles are injected at a rate of about 80:1, same reasoning, there is no dirt/dust on top of snow. I respect your decisions as far as mixing, but like I commented, it just seems to be engines being run on the edge of "safe" for a difference of a few oz. of oil per gallon.....
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It's all about 'shear strength'. The shear strength of a modern synthetic is what allows you run such low amounts of oil and continue to provide more than adequate protection. In case there are those reading this thread that don't know what shear strength is, it is simply an oil molecules ability to resist being 'torn' by the forces within an engine.
I would lay odds that a quality oil such as Amsoil, used at 100:1 provide more protection than Yamalube @ 32:1. I've run my 500 and raced it WFO (open desert - LOTS of dust, LOTS of extreme heat ) and never had a failure @ 100:1. Hell Glamis can't even kill this thing @ 100:1. All that 32:1 , 20:1, 24:!, etc... oil ratios are from way back in the day when people ran a conventional 2 stroke oil and HAD to run those ratios to provide the necessary protection to the big end bearing. Those ratios are quite simply based on tradition, not on a hard fact that they are needed with modern synthetics.
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Example. Yamaha still recommends you run 30:1 using Yamalube 2-R(semi-synthetic) with it's new(06) YZ250's. Quoted from their service manaul.
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Since I bought my 04 K5 I have only used Bel Ray H1R synthetic 2 stroke racing oil. I did 32:1 during break in. Then after getting my jetting correct I went to 36:1. I added a reed spacer and a FMF Gnarly and did 36:1 untill I rejetted. Now that it's running correct I went to 40:1. That's where I feel comfortable. I like to see the oil in the gas. I don't race and I'm scared of my bike. Yes I said it, I'm scared of my bike. When I ride my main goal is to not get hurt again. I guess I should say I respect my bike. I still have fun but I stay within my ability.
Danger
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Just some info straight from Amsoil on their products. Maybe some people may not know this.
DOMINATOR is recommended for use in high performance stock or modified two-cycle motors, including air or liquid cooled snowmobiles, personal watercraft, motorcycles (Moto X), ATVs, and go-carts. Good for use with coated or non-coated pistons, high-octane racing fuels and exhaust power valves. Compatible with most other two-cycle oils, however, mixing oils should be minimized. Use at 50:1 pre-mix ratios
AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil is recommended as an injector oil or at a 50:1 mix ratio in carbureted, electronic fuel Injected (EFI) and direct fuel injected (DFI) snowmobiles, personal watercraft, motorcycles, ATVs and jet boats, including, but not limited to, those manufactured by Bombardier?, Yamaha?, Arctic Cat?, Polaris?, Kawasaki?, Suzuki? and Honda?.
AMSOIL Saber 100:1 2-Cycle Oil is recommended for 100:1 mix ratios in normal service. Richer mix ratios may be used where desired. Saber Professional (ATP) is specifically designed for small engines including, but not limited to, chain saws, lawn equipment, blowers, chop saws, pumps, scooters and go-carts. Saber Professional is also very good for use in motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATVs, jet boats and personal watercraft. Saber Professional is formulated with high temperature detergent additives to prevent hard carbon deposits from forming in these hot operating motors. Saber Professional is ?smokeless? and delivers fewer emissions at 100:1 mix ratios than oils mixed at 50:1.
Just thought I would put that out there for some more discussion. Yamalube at 40:1 or Amsoil at 50:1. Big difference in performance? About the same price at those mix ratios. Comments on durability and protection?
Sly
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You old guys can remember, back in the day the "in" 2 stroke oil was Golden Spectro. Back when air cooled bikes were king, you needed protection. My '77 RM125 was like a time bomb as far as relibility, so I mixed at 32:1, and thereafter really had no problems. Along came the liquids, and also far more choices in oils. I also tried Bel Ray MC1 and that was my first blown engine. I ran 2 sand motos on 1 air filter (left the second one hanging on the wall at home). So maybe not Bel Ray's fault, but I have a BAD taste left in my mouth from Bel Ray. I tried Maxima, seemed good, but I would still see gunked up power valves. Now I use Klotz R50, and when I tear down a top end, the piston looks perfect, only slight scuffage, and the power valves need a quick Easy Off cleaner douche.... and I am good to go again.....
I think now the big saving factor is not necessarily the oil ratio, but more importantly using a high quality FULL synthetic pre-mix. You guys got me interested now in this 100:1 contraversy. I may have to try it. If I launch a piston, I will be back kicking a$$ and taking names..... LOL
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Your bike runs cooler/cleaner when you run a leaner mix. Even though I would NEVER run 100:1 on anything I own. It is just a paranoid me and I'm just too d**n worried that I will lock it up. I run things hard and harder. I don't trust them to keep oiled. But, as hard as I ran my KX, I did notice when I started running 32:1-40:1. It surged worse. Running 50:1-80:1 I noticed it wasn't so bad. Just my observation. To each his own. I'll still run 32:1 in my YZ, if you only knew how hard I am on that bike, you'd understand. :-)
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Thank You for all the input. I am running at 40 : 1 with the Klotz R50 and octane boost (+2) with 94 Gas. Might go leaner in the future, but never 100 : 1. Still having problems look for new posting please.
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"but never 100:1" quoted by JGT.
Dont knock it till ya try it. Or try 95:1? :-D
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Anyone tried Redline synthetic in their K5? I've been running yamaha-R2 @ 32:1 in a stock motor. Bike runs great, top end stays clean but, I'm tired of the extra smoke and the drool from the exhuast port.
I really like the sound of amsoil @100:1 but I'd like some fresh input from the more experienced in the forum.
Most of my riding is from lower-mid to top end not much trail riding.
I"m also not sure what impact this will have on my current jetting.
Also what's the best plug to run with the full synthetics?
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I am running Spectro 32:1 mix...that is actually what it is called, 32:1, so am I cool with thinning it out?
I have no doubt about running 100:1 mixes with some synthetics under racing conditions, but what do you guys think for me, since I want to get max life out of my "trail/ice bike".
A buddy of mine with an RM250 said he gets about 3 years out of a top end. His comment was, plenty of oil, and a good air filter.
Now, to get more life out of the engine, should I stick with 32:1, or would I be fine going to 50:1. I also noted that comment about the engine running cooler...makes a lot of sense, and thus reduces surging. Sounds like I need to thin out, but I will not do it at the risk of shortening the life of my top end.
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I have always had a good clean running engine using pro-honda hp2 at 32:1 , I was using maxima castor 927 but was told its junk for kawis powervalve system. so i switched . never have spooge coming out of my silencer and i never foul plugs, never . good stuff!!
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I heard that even though Amsoil has a "full synthetic", it is not. I was told that it still has some form of bean oil in it. And that is the other thing...bean????
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I may be wrong here but i think that the "castor bean" is used in some oils such as maxima or anything that says castor on the bottle , i geuss the castor is what makes the oil burn so dirty and leave lots of residue behind to gum stuff up . Klotz also has an oil that is called benoil .
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Good read.
I'm really curious about the 100:1 ratio with Amsoil Saber Pro but I'm afraid my riding style would fry the motor that lean. At 100:1 what is slow trail riding like? Would it load up?
May just go 80:1 with Amsoil Interceptor.
Run 50:1 Amsoil HP Injector in my 250 now and its great.
Would you need to rejet with the 100:1 mix??
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I run 24:1 on my brother's 85, 32:1 on my 125. Both with Maxima 927. I would stick with 32:1 on a 250, maybe 40:1 on a 500, but nothing higher than that.
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Wow 24:1. I had a 1950 outboard that called for that. Keep in mind that oil burns much hotter than gas. The trick is to use the least amount of oil that you can while maintaining the lubricating properties that you need. The better the oil film strength the less oil is required. More oil is not always better but good oil is always better. Cam.
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Rebuild question as it relates to oil: I thought I remebered hearing somewhere that full synthetics were not the way to go in some situations (i.e. just after a rebuild, or on a brand-new vehicle).
Can anyone confirm or deny?
P.S. As the bike has never started under my power yet--I'm ready to sign up for the Amsoil Interceptor at a slightly cautious 80:1
Thanks!
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Check with Paul, he is the Amsoil King!
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The only time to avoid synthetic is on a 4-stroke on a brand new engine or rebuild. You must break it in before switching to synthetic or the rings will not fully seat. I experienced this on a friends new street bike and we had to pop the cylinders off, and re-hone it. For 2 strokes there is enough fuel wash on the cylinder walls that this is not an issue. Hope this helps. Cam.
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Cam,
Thanks for all the good info.
With my current situation (worn out stock-size cylinder in need of a boring and replating, and not having the time or money to do the right thing right now) I'm going to put in a Wiseco (stock size) and putt around for the weekend (good friend's 40th celebration next to a big OHV park in California).
The guy at the shop recommended Motul 7t (Ester based full synthetic) at 32:1. I'm thinking at least 40:1 with your comments about how oil burns hotter than fuel.
Once I get the cylinder cleaned up, and another new piston to fit the new bore properly, I'll follow your advice about seeing how thin I can run the oil.
Thanks again!
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Good info here! I am just back on to dirt bikes after close to 5 years off. Will pick up a new for me KX250 ('04) tomorrow. So, as I read this sounds like smaller cc bikes may rev higher so higher ratio of oil to fuel is in order. Good quality synthetic oils w/ high "shear" value allows for leaner mix. Did I get this right? W/ 250, am I safe to run say 80:1 for a mix of slow trail "bog" (when riding with GF) and flat out rip across the desert when I head out on my own? I'm thinking I'll probably run klotz or something similar. Appreciate the input!
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So from the guys running 100:1... Any issues as of yet? Or still running strong as I suspect?
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But, as hard as I ran my KX, I did notice when I started running 32:1-40:1. It surged worse. Running 50:1-80:1 I noticed it wasn't so bad.
Not implying that you didn't already know this, but just for riders who may not understand what's happening:
Running a rich oil/fuel ratio (premix) LEANS out your jetting. That's correct...it's like using a smaller pilot/main jet. Without increasing the size of jets in your carburetor, transitioning to a 32:1 premix from a 50:1+ will cause surging typical of a lean running motor. It has in fact become a lean running motor when you've about halfed the amount of fuel the motor is getting by increasing the oil ratio. The opposite is true when you transition from 32:1 - 50:1+ the motor will run rich unless appropriate jetting changes are made.
I heard that even though Amsoil has a "full synthetic", it is not. I was told that it still has some form of bean oil in it. And that is the other thing...bean????
This is true, but it's not an issue to cause alarm. Synthetic oils today are a combination of ester packages and formulas to meet a desired criteria/goal. Amsoil has likely added some blend of esters formulated by Castor bean oil to augment their add package. Doesn't mean it's castor oil, and it curtainly doesn't mean it's not synthetic. Each of those claims would be totally false. It just means Amsoil is takeing advantage of a particluar function of castor oil by including a very specific "ingredient" that performs similar to the compound from which it was created.
And now to throw my flavors in,
I run Torco GP-7 @ 50:1. I'll likely switch to Amsoil Dominator after I finish off my Torco supply. Although Maxima Super M looks good too.
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40:1 is good for stock hp
32:1 is good for 75 hp
16:1-32:1 FOR +75 HP.
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Didn't i read something in here about determining correct ratio by the amount of oil that pools in the bottom of the crankcase? I searched but no luck.
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Some people try to run leaner fuel/oil ratio's to compensate for rich jetting conditions/black goo running out of the silencer etc. You always need to consider that the lower end of the engine needs proper lubrication just as the cylinder. I have always ran 32:1 with proper float heights some mild jetting changes and bikes have always ran clean with no plug fouling issues nor black goo running out of the silencers. I prefer to run Yamalube 2R @32:1. There's no benefit to running leaner fuel/oil ratio's other than making your quart of 2-stroke lasting longer.