KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Aluminum Frame Conversion (AFC) => Topic started by: sandblaster on January 07, 2015, 11:25:29 AM
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A buddy of mine has a 03 KX250 engine complete, fully rebuilt and looking for something to stick it in to.
It just so happens that I have a 2007 KX450F frame.
So we stuck the engine in it to see what would happen.
And of course the frame yoke is too low to let the exhaust pipe out :-o But then we knew that. :D
Next thing I know my buddy pulled a 01 cr250 frame from storage and drops the engine in...
PS... This engine is a 95 KX250 that was handy for fitment purposes.
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2867)
Kawaonda or a Honasaki :?
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You have got me thinking.....
How does the motor mounts line up? Pivot bolt same diameter?
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Haven't really gotten into it yet but just from a brief look, putting the kx250 motor in the Honda frame is easy.
The lower mounts line up with the swing arm pin.
Not sure about the diameters as it was a quickie.
I won't be putting the KX in to CR but I'll give some more info on it just for grins.
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Honda into a Kawi frame.....really have me thinking...
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Yeah but you don't want that 01 garbage. Still too early of a gen, that thing was stuff as s**t and broke like glass. P.s. On a side note, do you have a legit website? Or just the ebay store?
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I'm going to be using the KX450F frame so no worries there but I do have a use for the Honda frame :evil:
Do I have a Legitimate website?
No, just some Illegitimate websites 8-)
www.oem-cycle.com which is informational in nature and has links to my eBay store as to my web forum www.kxguru.com which is conversational and informational :-D
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I don't have time to post all the info and pics today but here's some updates for anyone interested in the KX engine to CR frame..
http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=926&p=3571#p3571 (http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=926&p=3571#p3571)
There is some more pics of the KX engine in the 450F frame...
I'll update here in the next few days.
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2882)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2887)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2885)
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Ok.... Everything else was just talk till now.
Too late to back out now :lol:
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2888)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2889)
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Ok, now it is really to late.... :-o
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2890)
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Not much to show today...
Just a little clean up...
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2891)
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Keep the pictures coming.... :-D
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Looking good so far!
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looks nice... with the 250 is all the same way like making a kx 500af conversion ... only front motor mounts would be diferent at least... :wink: .. if you make the front mounts as changeable brackets, could the frame be used for both engines like the old kawis 85-89 (the frames were complete identical, except the vin-code) ... just an practical idea... 8-)
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I'm gonna do a little something different.... :-o
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I'm gonna do a little something different.... :-o
its getting an ssp.. secret sandblaster project... :wink:
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:-D
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I go back and forth on wanting to do an aluminum framed 250 or 500. The aluminum seems like a lot of work for not much gain, but it does allow you to use later model hardware. Did you happen to check the weight difference between the 07 steel frame and the aluminum one?
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:-D
i knew it... now itīs getting excited what will be the finish ... i know your other projects, so it could only be a tricky bike... 8-)
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I go back and forth on wanting to do an aluminum framed 250 or 500. The aluminum seems like a lot of work for not much gain, but it does allow you to use later model hardware. Did you happen to check the weight difference between the 07 steel frame and the aluminum one?
the al-frame is heavier weighted and stiffer than the steel frame... both are very good ..
it is the look and the possibilty to use the newest chassis for building a 2stroke .. :wink:
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I want to let the cat out of the bag but I have to make sure it works like I think it will before I do :-o
The only reason for using a 07 is because it's what I had laying around at the time :-D
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I want to let the cat out of the bag but I have to make sure it works like I think it will before I do :-o
The only reason for using a 07 is because it's what I had laying around at the time :-D
same reason for my k5... the 93 250 frame was there and i checked, for which year i can get the most parts...
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Yeah... turns out I had everything but the wheels and sub frame.
But I'm working on that :lol:
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Yeah... turns out I had everything but the wheels and sub frame.
But I'm working on that :lol:
:-D... but you are sitting on the source of the parts fountain. its only a question of a few days... :wink:
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2930)
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2931)
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2934)
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2937)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2936)
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My buddy Jason in my machine shop using precision cutting machinery :lol:
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2933)
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sooooo....where did ya get the cradle for this interesting build?
the motor is waaaaaay too clean...it distracts from everything else :lol: :-D
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Ah Ha!
It's been driving me crazy that nobody asked :-D
I'll get back to that later....
On the engine, yeah it's pretty clean but not as clean as it's gonna get.
I used three week old large glass and dirty water which cleans fast but not that sweet clean :lol:
Before the engine get's rebuilt it will glow to perfection..
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Another interesting point is the Y lines up perfectly with the exhaust and even the bottom motor mounts line up perfectly.
It took a bit of trimming a little at a time to get the right length where the bottom rails attach by the pivot pin area.
After all it's easy to take a little off at a time but a lot more work to add material :lol:
And to think I have tossed many aluminum CR frames that I didn't have the titles to so I couldn't sell them...
I want to try the same thing for the KX500 engine and see how it works...
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I want to try the same thing for the KX500 engine and see how it works...
I think a few of us'll be waiting for those results :-)
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The biggest problem I see is the additional height of the exhaust port.
But we'll see..
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Will the CR cradle work with other years of the KXF frame, or just that version? I know you see a lot of parts, just curious what your eyeball says. Also, would you have any collecting dust at the shop? :-D
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Ok, Ok, it's a 01 CR250 cradle :-P
Honestly this is one of the few KX450F frames I have got in so I don't have any others to compare with as I sold the others.
My guess is that many other years are close enough to work.
There is probably a few guys here on the site that know.
I have several CR frames of other years in stock so I plan on putting a eye ball on some of those others fairly soon.
Right now I don't have any extra's but that will change soon enough :-D
I have seen some 00-01 cr250 frames cheap on eBay but none cheap at the moment.
I know the 250 conversions aren't as popular as the 500's but I'm sure there are a few that can benefit from this method.
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The cr250 2000/2001 are their own beast too. Odd rectangular tube that started on 97 but carried into 06 or so crf450 frames.
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The amazing thing is how well that rectangular tube fits up.
I would never have guessed it.
My buddy Jason said you know, I think this cradle will fit right up to the KX450F frame.
And I'm thinking.... Pipe dream....
Then we got out a tape measure and it looked very promising.
So I said go for it.... 8-)
We will be adding some additional bracing back where the carriage attaches by the pivot pin area.
Since Jason is going to be airing this thing out we don't want any strength issues.
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Do the motor mounts line up pretty well? The motor may not be in its final position, but it looks like the mounts are a bit short but really close. Of course I remember one of your earlier pictures of the CR frame, and it looked spot on.
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The bottom mounts are perfect.
The front mounts are off but there is plenty of room for a custom set of mounts like this.
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2957)
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nice
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Jason is working on the mount in this pic
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2933)
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Head stay mounts are almost done
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2972)
The rear frame rail to frame plate is done.
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2973)
The front mounts are almost done..
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2974)
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You should weld up a bunch of these and sell them. It would make doing the conversion simple. You could even give a price break to the guy who came up with the idea. :-D
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Before it goes to weld we are gonna make templates of everything.
I really want to see if we can make this happen with the 500 engine.
I'm doubtful but you never know what a little tweaking might do :lol:
I have no interest of making conversions for others as there is plenty of skillful people doing it.
But I will share what I learn and showing what you can do with some very basic hand tools and some elbow grease..
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Not much to report.
Just making brackets and threaded tabs for the cdi and coil.
Our welder is about two weeks out so we are stuck making busy work on it...
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Before it goes to weld we are gonna make templates of everything.
I really want to see if we can make this happen with the 500 engine.
I'm doubtful but you never know what a little tweaking might do :lol:
I have no interest of making conversions for others as there is plenty of skillful people doing it.
But I will share what I learn and showing what you can do with some very basic hand tools and some elbow grease..
the 500 motor does only need a little bit diferent front mount ... i noticed this as i did my 93 steelframe conversion .. 8-)
in the meantime a pic of an bad welded honda-conversion-frame...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10931293_10204902957026132_8794264810167634301_n.jpg?oh=5cca9b128a49788479685724beac2776&oe=55670437&__gda__=1432956634_b82bda9fe88a137f40e9be996749b479)
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You know that guy is sick to his stomach looking at his bike. That frame is trashed!
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You know that guy is sick to his stomach looking at his bike. That frame is trashed!
and more as good to see the clear break of the bad weld over the y-section ... the rest of the frame cracked like a joint as result of the y-section-break
note that it is straight like cutted in the next pic
(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10426205_10204902957226137_3450176488558121577_n.jpg?oh=52f51823f8df0945961057e05f87bbac&oe=554A25E0)
bu t nobody of you all had seen the dual silencer :wink:
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I missed the twin mufflers :-P
Yes, the Y area is always a concern.
The Y section wasn't the best design for that generation of frames and Honda continued to update it to improve the weld surface area.
We have a few things that we are going to do and see if we can make it better :-o
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I missed the twin mufflers :-P
Yes, the Y area is always a concern.
The Y section wasn't the best design for that generation of frames and Honda continued to update it to improve the weld surface area.
We have a few things that we are going to do and see if we can make it better :-o
i know you are able to do it to perfect bike-finish.. :wink: ..maybe on your kx500-al-frame-project or on the supermoto-bike you will do the twin muffler thing ... i think its getting a better weight balance and a amazing look... 8-)
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That's all I need, More temptation on crazy stuff :evil:
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... now it starts to get exciting. 8-)
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thats not the stock yoke in that CR photo. thats one of those machined yokes off of ebay.
looks like the actual pocket of the machined top cup broke off. very odd.
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Nope... It's a completely stock 01 CR250 cradle.
If I do another this way I will probably use the 03 CR250 cradle..
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sandblaster, I think JBernard was referring to the CRAF pics that motopunk posted...I'm just assuming. :-)
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yes, sorry, i was talking about the broken frame picture above!
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Doah :roll:
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3001)
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wow, the valve cover is pretty tight to the frame in that pic!
or is the motor just sitting in there unbolted?
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Clearance is about 1/8".
It's a little tight but I'll take it :-D
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haha...yeah that's snug. :-o
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If the frame flexes that far I'll probably be dealing with other issues :-o
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GXV6eK_KiCI/maxresdefault.jpg)
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If the frame flexes that far I'll probably be dealing with other issues :-o
don't you mean Jason will "be dealing with other issues"? :-P
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Well.... he jumps higher but I'm about 80lb heavier....
So let's say that he is at 380lb bike and all.
If he clears 10ft of air, he is coming down with 3800ft lb of force.
If I'm 460lb bike and all that means I only have to clear 8.25 ft to have the same force.
Your right, Jason will be dealing with it :-D
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Do you think the YZ two stroke frame section would work like the CR does? I've never seen one up close, but it seems to be a pretty standard shape.
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Hmmm.... Never looked at it before.
I guess we'll have to wait and see on that unless someone else knows...
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The frame went to weld on the 13th...
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3236)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3238)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3237)
My welder said it would be about two weeks before he would have it done :cry:
Two weeks? Your killing me...
Oh well... just want it done right..
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2 weeks are gone faster, than you think... :-D
it will look like an oem-frame if its ready...
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The frame went to weld on the 13th...
looks good...you guys did nice clean fab work!
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I'd love to take credit for the fab work but all I did was make some suggestions.
Jason did the rest.
He is a meticulous mechanic but never attempted anything like this.
Just goes to show you what the average guy can do with limited tools and the info at this site.
Sawsall, file, bench grinder, hand grinder, drill, and a vice.
When it comes back from weld we are sending it to a heat treater.
Trying to give us the best chance of sucess.
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He is a meticulous mechanic but never attempted anything like this.
Just goes to show you what the average guy can do with limited tools and the info at this site.
that's pretty sweet for never have attempted anything like that. :-)
he's already put that "other" guy's work to shame that does it for a living, that so many members speak so highly of :roll:
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Acronyms anonymous :evil:
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Any word from the welder? I am dying to see how it turns out...
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Yes, I should have the frame on Wed.
Then I have to finish up a few things and send it to the heat treater..
Thanks goes to Roostius for this!!!
Make sure the material is 6061 and the welder uses 4000 series rod. If you don't put a vent
hole in the right places the frame will blow up like a balloon especially in the cradle area.
Tell the Heat treater to:
1) "Heat treat and age to "T6"
Note to heat treater* Write and tell verbally to call you after heat treat so you can go drop a
motor in the frame to make sure it's straight before final age. This is "VERY" important.
2) "Times and Temps to AMS 2770 only"
3) "Spray Quench only"
If you have any other questions ask and make sure you go over this with the Heat treater and
he understands it if he doesn't find someone else.
So much for this not being rocket science :-D
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i see a little bit progress is coming soon... 8-)
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So clean! :-o This build blows my newb mind.
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Yes, I should have the frame on Wed.
Then I have to finish up a few things and send it to the heat treater..
Thanks goes to Roostius for this!!!
Make sure the material is 6061 and the welder uses 4000 series rod. If you don't put a vent
hole in the right places the frame will blow up like a balloon especially in the cradle area.
Tell the Heat treater to:
1) "Heat treat and age to "T6"
Note to heat treater* Write and tell verbally to call you after heat treat so you can go drop a
motor in the frame to make sure it's straight before final age. This is "VERY" important.
2) "Times and Temps to AMS 2770 only"
3) "Spray Quench only"
If you have any other questions ask and make sure you go over this with the Heat treater and
he understands it if he doesn't find someone else.
So much for this not being rocket science :-D
i'm still on the fence about heat treating mine, and if its necessary. i now service honda doesnt heat treat their frames, but they are using solid alum in their cradle/yoke. so its more rigid, but they are making the same amount of weld joints, if not more. so theres that deterioration in the HAZ still.
i know after heat treating before annealing its soft and really needs the engine put back in and aligned, else the engine mounts arent going to match up perfect. i thought about doing a engine jig like the CR500 guys have floating around for engine mockup.
i dont know what to do really. the labor involved to HT it and still a chance they can mess it up is making me want to not have it done.
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Back from weld...
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3256)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3257)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3258)
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(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3259)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3260)
(http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3261)
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them's there some welds to be proud of! :mrgreen:
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I was smiling when I saw it :-D
My welder said that it was so clean it welded like butter.
It took very little time to heat the material even the thicker pieces.
I guess Vapor blasting was a good idea after all 8-)
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that "other guy" that does AF's for a living should be taking notes off this thread :-o :-)
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:evil:
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I was smiling when I saw it :-D
My welder said that it was so clean it welded like butter.
It took very little time to heat the material even the thicker pieces.
I guess Vapor blasting was a good idea after all 8-)
Talked to J today he was super excited about it. I cant wait to come check it out! He also showed me that rear wheel all laced up and purdy, i cant thank you enough for letting him use your resources on my behalf... im in awe i might cry when that bike is all done.
-R
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No problem.
Jason is a good guy and I don't mind helping him out.
It will be a while before this build reaches it's full potential but it should be fully functional in the next month or so.
Then we will work on the suspension and finally the visuals..
More then anything I want Jason to destroy The Territorial Race Track on it 8-)
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Wow, that is so well done! It looks so beefy too. In fact, it looks as good or better than a lot of the "professional" jobs I've seen. My hats off to you sir.
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/1b/1b75942545ded525189ef89567631529533c49df4150baea7a120b43db62554b.jpg)
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the welds are a piece of art... also the line up of the motor in the frame is perfect... 8-)
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Those welds are a work of art!
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We need to make it a 300 and get a power D for it:)
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Cool!!!
But... I just need to get it running for now.
If it runs and rides like we want, who knows where this build will go or where we might race it at.
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I have a 98 kx250 do you think the engine is a good choice for a conversion? What is cheaper buying every single part or a complete kx250f? I'm already looking for a complete Chassis without engine but thats heavy to find here.
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I found a blown up 2012 kx250f that I bought for $1270 then sold all the parts I didn't need and only have $450 into the rolling chassis. That's probably your best option.
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I found a blown up 2012 kx250f that I bought for $1270 then sold all the parts I didn't need and only have $450 into the rolling chassis. That's probably your best option.
1270 bucks for 2012 kxf? :-o Can't believe!
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I have a 98 kx250 do you think the engine is a good choice for a conversion? What is cheaper buying every single part or a complete kx250f? I'm already looking for a complete Chassis without engine but thats heavy to find here.
I would use 94-02 with no issues...
Buying a rolling chassis should be WAY cheaper...
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I found a blown up 2012 kx250f that I bought for $1270 then sold all the parts I didn't need and only have $450 into the rolling chassis. That's probably your best option.
1270 bucks for 2012 kxf? :-o Can't believe!
Yes, it was an awesome deal! got pretty lucky
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Any idea how this or other cradles fit the 250f (specifically the '06-'08 frames)? Also, how much is the cost of the heat treating and who did you use, Metalab?
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This is the only one we have done this way.
If you have a frame that you want to try it with, send it to me and I'll experiment with it :evil:
I have not taken it to a heat treater yet as we are not quite ready..
I'll post the details as I get them..
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Could you possibly tell me what the outside measurement is across where the rear of the CR cradle meets the KX frame is?
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I'll try to get that later today but I can tell you that it is really close.
The CR frame was just slightly wider.
When we put it together it was easy to push the CR frame rails together and slip it into the KX frame.
Because the CR frame rails were being slightly compressed, the assembly would hold itself together.
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I'm curious because I'm using an '06 KX250f frame.
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Any updates on the build? Patience was never one of my strong suits. :-D
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We haven't done a thing.
It's the usual Spring time craziness that bike shops go through.
We have actually had some discussions about how to handle certain aspects of the build but nothing I want to post just yet :-)
I'll update as soon as I have something worth posting.... 8-)
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Any Updates on this build? I'm just about to jump into my build and chop the frame and I'm wondering if you ever finished this one?
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Nope... Cause I'm a looser.... :x
Hopefully we will get some more time this winter to jump back on it.
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Bummer, I hopefully you'll find sometime soon!
Thanks for all the information ! I'm new to this whole Forum thing but i'm thinking of documenting my build also/ same platform and build so keep an eye out.
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Cool, I'll be watching 8-)
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What ever happened to this chassis? I was thinking about it after looking at your pumpkin build.
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Jason at JT engine works has it now.
I started that just before I built my shop..
Then I spent 5 years pulling my hair out running the shop...
Then I sold the shop and my house and moved out so I could become a hermit...
Just when I thought about starting that project back up the KTX came up soooo....
Jason is going to finish it.
I'll give him all the parts I have for it... Excluding the engine of course :-)
So it will get done...
It does not need much.