KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Aluminum Frame Conversion (AFC) => Topic started by: ylwgtr on October 13, 2013, 05:20:30 PM
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hi guys here is my alloy frame jobby :)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2606_zps72ed44e6.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2911_zps20ecaf76.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2489_zps08aaf7b1.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2612_zps6f62b279.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2647_zpsa992b4ae.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2649_zps9ef7ac5c.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2650_zps0b6bcf8c.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2651_zps3a9d555f.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2676_zps957e8bf8.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2677_zps7fd75d9e.jpg)
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head stay/weld on boss
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2800_zps62b1508f.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2803_zpsb2117855.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2801_zpsfebc170b.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2802_zps820688f1.jpg)
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(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2714_zps18f5f3b1.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2715_zps95ae49c3.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2716_zps3f008c2c.jpg)
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coil mount/s
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2964_zps65d124c6.jpg)
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(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2830_zps8e2127a2.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2959_zpsd1f9d462.jpg)
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heres my honda crf450x/cr500 hybrid pretty much same treatment regarding the fabrication except 11lt handbeat alloy tank that i made....I will also do one for the kawasaki when i get time....now i can test them both back to back :)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2918_zpsd8f5e3d9.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2818_zps7a6fd54e.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2814_zps08dd32d7.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_2817_zps600cd644.jpg)
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Very nice work.
I love the aluminum tank...
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that is all kinds of awesome!
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Very nice work.
I love the aluminum tank...
aluminium -tanks looking always like worksbikes... :-D
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That KLX looks great. Just a question. What pipe did you use. On my KLX conversion, I stuck with the service honda one. It looks like it has a longer transition at both ends.
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Hi,I used a procircuit cr500 pipe cut it into alot of parts and welded it back together......i tried to buy the service honda pipe but they kept telling me they dont have stock and to keep trying them......what am i suposed to do email them daily?????I figured by the time they came good i could have built 100 pipes myself :)
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i found a spare head up in the loft amongst a bunch of kx and cr500 engines so i gave the old decomp thing a try....I used an auto decomp unit off a victa lawn mower...Its not pretty but man it dumps some air out of it....and its auto....i will work on a more tidy version when i have time
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_3020_zpsfec8b57e.jpg)
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another thing i noticed was the original stand was rubbish....i cut the original pipe out and used material with a thicker wall
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_3025_zpsd5e791a9.jpg)
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Nice work! We need a ride report 8-)
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thanks for the kind words....Ive dressed up the head and i dont its TOO obtrusive!I will connect a vac line to pull it closed.....I will be making a large alloy tank in the next few weeks when my new bossing mallets turn up....my old ones have done a few too many klms!I will be hand beating it on a tree stump out of a sheet of 1.6mm alloy....i can upload pics if you guys are interested :)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_3029_zps532b39d1.jpg)
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Hey mate.
I saved all the hassle and bought an acerbis 16L tank for my klx500. It bets me about 90km now before I start getting nervous.
I would love to see the tank and what it looks like and what you did to make it get more volume without getting really wide.
TSF
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Faaaaark bloke that's terrible consumption ....I rode the cr to Phillip island and back a couple of years ago I ended up getting up there almost on a tank (120 klms) and its 11lts
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I also noticed the carburation on the kx was miles up the s**t....Im running a 50 pilot and a 160 main and it's right on the money...before with the 60 pilot and 168 main it was covering the rear in black unburnt fuel...it's EVERYWHERE
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Yes it is crap consumption. I am slowly leaning off the mix as I go as the the whole thing was a build from the bottom up and I had no starting point. I am on 55 pilot and 168 and it is still black everywhere.
I will adjust it more in the coming weeks. Work has been taking most of my time.
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let me know how you get on with it....i took mine for a quick run down the road yesterday and its still not 100% right....i noticed black crap on the rear fender again but no way near like before.....Im struggling to come to terms with this....IT SHOULD NOT BE DOING THIS!!!!!The honda spits nothing out the back....i mean nothing.....I thought maybe its and air restriction so i removed the air boot on the back and no better (thats the only thing thats diffrent from it sitting in a steel or alloy frame) I pumped up the cases to check for a seal issue,It holds pressure fine....I have 4 carbs here been right through everyone of them....nothing wrong......I will say the kx is no way near as responsive as the honda the way it is now....the honda is right there immediatly off the stopper...and i mean RIGHT there....you have to be totally on the ball with throttle control or your going straight over the back....I thought it may be the pipe but its not....ive tried a service honda one.....same deal.....lets work together on this and see if we can sort it because im sure its not meant to be like this!
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Sounds like a great idea, as mine is not the fire breather that I want and it uses a shed load of fuel. That said, everyone here I asked seemed to think that 7 litres to do 40 km sounds about right. I am flat out pulling a wheel stand under power in 3rd, so work is definitely needed.
Where are you locate in AUSTRALIA? PM me you phone number.
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7 litres to 40klms with DISMAL performance like this?????Sorry guys I'm not sold on this engine just yet....If I'm sacrificing fuel,I want to be making more power!I don't have experience with this engine in particular,nor have I really ridden any as new kx500's but I can't help feeling there's something lacking here....The engine is healthy but I'm no way near intimidated of this engine....I ride the Honda quite hard (although I'm no world class racer) it just seems I've always got enough power to loft the front in any gear,including top...I get off it never asking it for more than it can give me...The only complaint I have with it is I can just about feel every power cycle from the engine and it does vibrate more than the kx....I have a 2000 kx500 that I haven't ridden stashed away maybe I need to get it out and run it and see how that runs????Maybe it is my pipe and the service Honda pipe is also a pile aswell????Im not ready to give up just yet but i reckon my old 89 cr250 was just as fast!!
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TSF
did you measure your squish?I havent rebuilt my engine but it seems to be really low hours....i stuck a piston and rings in it the other day...thats about all.....I been thinking and thinking about this....I was thinking A)Its getting too much fuel. B)its not getting enough air......C) It just cant burn the mix properly for some reason so i pulled the head off and measured the squish.....Well....ITS 3MM!!!!!!Im going to machine it then report back .....
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I didn't measure the squish, but I did note the piston did only just sit below the top of the barrel.
I might give you a call tomorrow.
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ride report.....The CR smokes it so far......but im not done yet....Im working on junking the electrical system as i believe this may be where most of the problem is.....ive run a strobe light on both bikes....the cr is rock solid (the black mark i put on the flywheel is steady and dark in colour) and advances/retards...The kx system however is not correct,It is faint then solid every now and then....after a big blip of the throttle the mark disappears all together and it appears to flash 180 away!(near bdc) Ive tried diffrent CDI units and stators.....same thing... my mate just bought a 98 kx500 and same thing on his.The CR feels so much lighter/willing to pick up the front wheel due to its far superior response/acceleration.The klx/kx hybrid feels like a powerful KDX250....i did a few ripping high gear wheelies on it but still no way near the honda....the honda feels like a motorcross bike and the kawasaki feels like a trail bike.....In short honda ripping bottom end,fat power all the way through to the top where the things pulling like a freight train right through all gears.....kawasaki not too bad bottom end,very very smooth power signing off way too early....not right....still something wrong....I have a decomp pusher valve on the cr,the kx has the victa mower valve which is far superior........i will be putting the auto decomp on the cr right after i sort the kx out.
I have a pretty cool idea for the kawasaki thats going to blow your mind....doing cad work for it this weekend and will be firing up the machine centre next week....stay tuned....its ground breaking :)
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When putting your engine together what head gasket did you use? There is a optional thick headgasket that makes the power super smooth. I went back to the standard gasket on my 500 and love it! More bottom (although I didnt feel it was lacking before) a more noticeable midrange hit and pulls stronger throughout the powerband. Just a thought.
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hi thanks for the input....however ive been there....im running the standard gasket and ive machined the head (just tightened up the squish) made it more crisp but still nothing on the cr
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I have a pretty cool idea for the kawasaki thats going to blow your mind....doing cad work for it this weekend and will be firing up the machine centre next week....stay tuned....its ground breaking :)
I can't wait...
Any hints?
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hahaha not telling just yet ;)
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hahaha not telling just yet ;)
That stinks :lol:
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ok guys....Im posting for you sandblaster ;) Id like to have a bit more for you guys but ive been busy at work,plus ive been waiting for the internals to show up,but its going to work....Im pretty sure you can work out whats going on here ;)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_30861_zps10a1e0d0.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_30871_zps3bb65151.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_30851_zpsbeb7bcd6.jpg)
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I'll take one please!
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ok guys....Im posting for you sandblaster ;) Id like to have a bit more for you guys but ive been busy at work,plus ive been waiting for the internals to show up,but its going to work....Im pretty sure you can work out whats going on here ;)
YES!!!!! I LIKE IT!!! :-D
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Freeride electric start, will it clear the exhaust/frame?
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its a 300 cover...It clears!!!....it was the first thing i checked.....your going to have to give me a little more credit than that dave! ;) ....however i can swivel the cover to orientate the starter more vertical if i had any problems.....This setup will give me a full 12v DC charging system aswell.....When the internals turn up i will have more information for you guys on how this is going to work....I may be machining the side of the crankcase off (where the original cover bolts to) about 8mm or so....i may also need to relocate the clutch cable mount but i might be able to incorporate it into the adapter plate that im making.....I will also be running the KTM flywheel/generator/pulse pickup and a mappable CDI...something that i feel this engine will greatly benefit from.....Im not sure if the victa auto decomp will activate under cranking untill i get it turning off the starter however I have a few ideas to combat this.
One being the early victa decomps are servicable,so i may use one of those and try a stiffer spring in it or worse case scenario is ditch the victa and use a normally closed egr solenoid that gets energised by an aux out on the CDI brain under say 300rpm :)
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but you have an interesting point dave.....i wonder if the freerides have a diffrent cover....maybe easier to adapt?I must check the part numbers....although the 300 one appears to be quite easy i must say
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Another thing i will add is these parts are not cheap!!!Its prob going to cost me a grand or so....but hey....all in the name of R&D huh? :-)
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Before you spend a bunch of money you may want to do a search at Thumpertalk or KTMTalk. The KTM 300 starters are a known problem and most often do not have enough cranking power to start a 300 let alone a 500. There are hundreds of posts of slow cranking or no cranking on the 300's. KTM has known about this for years and years but for some reason has failed to upgrade the 300 starting system. The KTM 4 stroke starters seem to work fine. I'm not a KTM basher; I own two of them.
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hi kxpegger....Im running an auto decomp that kickstarts like a minibike....im also using the updated 410w starter off the new model....Also running a bit of oil in the case seems to help a bit as they are only pissy bushes on the bendix drive....infact i think because of my decomp i reckon my starter will be having an easy time comared to the undecomped 300 its designed to work with....no turning back....ive already paid for the parts....Im prepared to take one for the team ;)
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10-4! I think the decomp alone should take care of it. Looking forward to seeing you pull this off!
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Me too.
Thinking about those times being stuck on the side of a hill, engine dead, and no way to turn around.... Wouldn't it be nice to touch a button and go?
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not really bike related but another reason why i havent had much time for this project....I work in a never put your eggs in one basket job....this is a run of billet quad disc floor polishing machines with a planatry gearbox :)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_30931_zps8e2441b9.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_30944_zps89d14f88.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_30951_zps20f90233.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/IMG_30961_zpsb4b82c4a.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps199370bb.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpsc3ca11e1.jpg)
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They make a upgraded starter that is pretty cheap or buy the fix it kit for the KTM
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Nice machining!
are you in the states? Maybe some of us can send you work if thats an option? maybe get a forum discount? :-D
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Hi jbernard nah mate in Australia!!
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ah to bad.
well nice machining there. I ran a Doosan PUMA 280L lathe for about a year on 4340 and Inconel.
miss being out of that industry but it gave me some nice tools to design and make dirt bike parts! :evil:
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hi kxpegger....Im running an auto decomp that kickstarts like a minibike....im also using the updated 410w starter off the new model....Also running a bit of oil in the case seems to help a bit as they are only pissy bushes on the bendix drive....infact i think because of my decomp i reckon my starter will be having an easy time comared to the undecomped 300 its designed to work with....no turning back....ive already paid for the parts....Im prepared to take one for the team ;)
fair play i am looking forward to see how this turn out
running the flywheel/generator/pulse pickup and a mappable CDI should be great mod
Most starter motors are pretty similiar in alot of models[the differance being the rear mounting bolt housing which is simple to change
The sm14 starter motor which i think the ktm has is common to R6 Cbr600 gsx600 etc
It may have the shorter sm14 which is fitted to a lot of tumpers 450 singles
i replaced my smr510 starter with the longer r6{cost about 20 quid}
good luck.
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put a bumbag off a kdx200 on yesterday :)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps60860cfe.jpg)
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heres the ktm flywheel sitting on the kx engine
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps1f132e0c.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps31de0cd8.jpg)
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ktm vs kx500 flywheel
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpsf75d2d35.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpsfc3f9d30.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps26472e62.jpg)
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the test mule
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpse88ea3b0.jpg)
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Good stuff.
We are watching with great interest :-o
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I am still in line for getting one.... :-D
Glad I converted my KLX now rather than a KX with all the starting system and electrics still on it.
TSF
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Clocking up/plotting kx case for adapter plate dimensions
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps9c0f3927.jpg)
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I see some cool things are gonna happen :-o
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Not much to report yet....made a 3mm plate that fits on the kx case and one that fits on the ktm cover and drilled a hole directly in the centre of both...I then bolted them together via the centre bolt with the ktm one on the top and bolted it to the kx engine...this allows me to rotate the top 3mm plate on the centre bolt letting me find the best possible position for the degree of rotation of the ktm cover as I need to find the best fitment for clearance of the bendix drive....hope that sort of makes sense!!!
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on another note we took this POS out the other day....my mate rode it,i rode the honda another mate on his ktm...we managed to do approx 80 klms,pretty sedate forest riding as the guy on the kx was a novice....He commented it was very easy to ride....which he should have been scared of it....i thought id check the fuel today....the klx was bone dry (looks like we just made it back) the honda.....wait for it.....i drained the fuel out of the honda and completely filled the klx with it....and had 750ml left over!!!!!!!d**n this green POS!!!!!!!!!!!!Ive checked with the other guys to make sure they didnt put any fuel in the honda...they said they didnt....Im stunned that the honda used so little fuel....and the klx used so much and produced bugger all power :( the only other possibility is we didn't I fact do that many klms as I'm only going off what the guy with the ktm said as he has a GPS dash thingo fitted ....we will take the both out again next week end and I will police the fuel on them both myself
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Just another thought...it is possible the fuel was left on on the klx....it doesn't leak but we did trailer the bikes on a very bumpy road...maybe it was doing wee wee's for a while??although I'm still flabbergasted on the amount that was left in the honda
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Ok...we done 65klms that day
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Hey mate,
You may want to check the jetting as I played with my klx on the weekend and used the n84a needle and it was doughy. Changed to the n82m and it made the world of difference in snap and delivery. Still used a fair bit of fuel, but made a huge difference to the performance. I also will try the float level as I think it may be too high, causing me to loose some fuel on the move.
I am checking my floats and seeing how that goes.
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hey TSF....im running that needle already....im STILL calling it a POS for the moment....also had a ride on my mates 96 kx500....pretty much standard,has a fmf pipe,new piston,cleaned valves ect...guess what...its a POS aswell :D.....but im still not ready to give up yet!
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well ive been bent over bigtime on the flywheel.....it seems ktmpartspitstop has written AU on the address instead of australia or AUS.....its sitting in the postal system in furking hungary austria!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a bunch of kents :(
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well ive been bent over bigtime on the flywheel.....it seems ktmpartspitstop has written AU on the address instead of australia or AUS.....its sitting in the postal system in furking hungary austria!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a bunch of kents :(
I'm guessing that Kents does not mean Superman's family :lol:
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correct.....spent an hour on hold last night with usps....up to 23 days to get it now....not happy......so much for $60 priority mail....looks like the priority was to dick mke around once they have the dough
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here is the angle its going to be running at,and the clearance to cylinder (without adapter plate)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps3f0aa8fa.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps4fe3edfa.jpg)
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Kick ass
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Kick ass
Poor donkey :cry:
That is going to whip the lama's crack.
Can't wait..
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trial run of plate in 2D to check the holes....the part where the starter drive runs will be rebated
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps20a3f45e.jpg)
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holy crap, now we need you to do the clutch cover mod
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first i need to get this heap of shight performing like the honda
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first i need to get this heap of shight performing like the honda
Hopefully better than a Honda :wink: :wink:
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righto ladies....get your old fellas out over this ;)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps98aef9dc.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps3eeb4f5a.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps19757170.jpg)
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the first photo shows the part that will get machined out of the crankcase....i thought ahead here,when the cover bolt pattern was clocked up using the crankcase,we drilled the fixture plate to take the crankcase dowls to locate it,so i can bolt the case back down in exactly the same place and use the NC machine to mirror the rebate hole making a perfect airtight fit....you coculd also hack it with a diegrnder i guess....... also the case cover height comparo..... fuk all diffrence in height
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpsb67d634e.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps6fb232e9.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpsf630dd26.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpsb2d4d7a8.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps8849f3dd.jpg)
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love the coffee mug!
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Yeah thought I'd throw that in the mix ;)
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weighed all the parts today....it all weighs 1.7kg for the weight concious guys.....im happy to put up with it myself
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case machined to receive rebate
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps8d366da3.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps14ce7ac9.jpg)
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had to weld the 3 odd mm air gap left from the old wire grommet
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps977e67af.jpg)
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plate mounted on
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps1cbedadf.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps42c6c23b.jpg)
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finished minus flywheel mods
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps826faf5d.jpg)
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this old girl gave up its life today in honour of electric start r&d.....it was a shagged crank i had lying around out of my 87 kxt250 tecate....the seal area was rusty .....im using the shaft to machine the flywheel hub on so it stays as true as posible.....2 mins of silence for the poor old girl please
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps5be6ecba.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpsae083bb8.jpg)
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the old KX500 flywheel also copped it ....ive removed the hub and machined off the flange
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps27bb8446.jpg)
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im going to bore this bad boy out next....i will machine the hub down with a stopper step on it and bore the flywheel to receive the hub,put a nut and a bolt in the centre to hold it put while i drive the TIG over it
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpseb795074.jpg)
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Hey mate. I so look forward to your updates! Round of applause to you for the level of commitment you have shown. I can't wait to hear about the first test and how it goes when you press the button.
Love your work!
TSF
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How did the taper compare? How hard would it have been to rework the taper to match the KX 500? I don't have a ktm flywheel to compare. Keep up the great work!
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Thanks TSF....alward the taper on the KTM is very steep at the rear of the flywheel then changes angle....even if you could get the flywheel to direct fit without any type of hub mod it would still need to be packed out the correct distance to allow the bendix drive to make contact with the ring gear....therefore needing a hub mod anyway ...hope that makes sense
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you can see the first angle on this pic
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpsfc3f9d30.jpg)
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can also be seen on the ktm crank...unfortunatly no easy way out here.....lining the KX500 hub,ktm flywheel (with crank angle ref tab) and the engine relative to ? degrees to TDC is going to be fun as the pulse pickup is bolted to the engine cover....I will need to get my mates ktm300 back and find out what degrees before TDC the leading edge of the ref tab passes the sensor (which i will have to make a mark on the crank case itself as mentioned you cant actually see its position when youve removed the cover)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/uLQAAOxyg6BR11yl/$(KGrHqV,!rcFH!2dc!8kBR11yk5tHw~~60_1.JPG?set_id=8800005007)
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Ok...back into old mates ktm300...the pick up see's the leading edge of the ref tab at 30 degrees BTDC and the trailing edge is TDC.....what generally happens here is during crank/kick starting the CDI will read from the trailing edge and once running it will read from the leading edge....the trailing edge turns out to be located directly in the center of the wiring grommet which makes my job easy...so I will park the kx engine at TDC line up the tab with the grommet hole and put the ktm flywheel on the kx hub
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps2027439e.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps85a77de5.jpg)
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Doesnt get much easyer than that
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Today I prepped the case and blasted it....ended up looking like the factory made it :)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps9808a524.jpg)
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Wow, that is just too cool 8-)
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Where do I sign up??
I have wanted to do this for a long time i even came up with some gogkie parts to try it but decided that my skill level is not up to it.
now we need a vidio of it working.
You've done an Awsome thing.
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My hats off to you. Awesome job
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Wow, that is just too cool 8-)
sandblaster is fallen in love :-D ... the e-start would be a nice mod to his supermoto- project...
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Wow, that is just too cool 8-)
sandblaster is fallen in love :-D ... the e-start would be a nice mod to his supermoto- project...
It might save my knee...
Then again... I could install my compression release modded head :lol:
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Wow, that is just too cool 8-)
sandblaster is fallen in love :-D ... the e-start would be a nice mod to his supermoto- project...
It might save my knee...
Then again... I could install my compression release modded head :lol:
I've been thinking the compression release would still be sweet,,,might reduce wear and tear,,,at least on the cold starts.
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If you take a look I'm running one....it's mandatory...otherwise I don't think it will turn over.....my one is fully automatic....no pushing a button
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If you take a look I'm running one....it's mandatory...otherwise I don't think it will turn over.....my one is fully automatic....no pushing a button
now we need a video to see how well your engine performs with the e-start ... :mrgreen:
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Amazing work, l really cant see any issues now,
A bigger battery should help with cranking the kx
It will be interesting to see how the ktm cdi performs
Keep up the great work
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Thanks guys I'm pretty happy with the way it's going so far.... I will be using a lithium battery and a mappable CDI unit....I guess you could use the KTM one
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if all goes according to plan i will post a video of it turning over off the starter tomorrow...stay tuned
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I can't wait!
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I doctor emmett brown...am about to embark...on a historic journey.....And on 30th of the 11th 2013....it was born :-)
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/84489DC6-6E9E-4E92-A97C-163F4C49E3CB-8633-00000831073DD4C6_zps14be0433.mp4
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That is cool 8-)
Can't wait to see it up and going.
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(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpse4557900.jpg)
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I doctor emmett brown...am about to embark...on a historic journey.....And on 30th of the 11th 2013....it was born :-)
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/84489DC6-6E9E-4E92-A97C-163F4C49E3CB-8633-00000831073DD4C6_zps14be0433.mp4
Awesome!!!!
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You are one bad ass dude! :-o
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Ok so I've decided to go with an electric decomp....I will dump it into the kips section of the cylinder (which I haven't bored/taped/machined a seat for the copper washer yet) I've received the KTM loom section so I will whip the cylinder off tomorrow and do the work to finish the decomp fitting and if I got enough time drop the engine back on and fire it up off the starter motor :-)
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ok update.....got it all back together.....kick started it first off to make sure the flywheel was in the right spot and the KTM cdi was happy.....It fired right up.....felt heaps more snappy on the throttle.....Right...so ive made an improvement here....next,starting it off the starter motor...No joy....ok so i thought lets have a look here...motor seems to be turning over fast enough alright no doubt about that,no horrible crunch's or abnormal gear meshing sounds,just a nice electric start crank over sound much like the new whoopie cushions......seems my engineering is up to scratch :-)....i took a good look at the KTM wiring diagram again to make sure there no crank signal or anything like that from the button to the CDI.....nope nothing....i left the spark plug in and connected a new one to the coil lead and cranked it....no spark......give it a kick,i got spark....but i did notice you have to give it a big kick(normal for starting a 500 i guess)....a half arsed kick....no spark.....Ok so ive come to the conclusion that i need to check the air gap for the pick up to flywheel.....i will need to mill or drill and inspection window in the cover to do this so i can see it in its working position......I cant complain so far as the whole set up so far has given me no trouble retrofitting onto this engine,there was always bound to be some sort of spanner in the works! stay tuned fella's....im on the home stretch!
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Check system voltage under cranking. Starter my be pulling system down below operation threshold.
Which cdi are you using
My KTM has some very interesting starting quarks when it comes to voltage if your interested
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Awesome job so far. I will have to get down that way and check it out. Perhaps early next year. You rock!
TSF
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Motorad,the CDI circuit is totally independent to the starter circuit....the cdi does not require battery voltage at all to function...the loom is separated from the charging/cranking loom on the KTM
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realy nice work, but it looks like an little electrical problem now... :|
1. is the engine running, if you kick it ??
2. i think maybe you only need isolation between the voltage of the e-start-system and the ignition-system , that the e-start-voltage can not bother the performance of the ignition-system, if you try to e-start the engine.
some years ago had one of my riding buddys the same problem with his ktm 300 exc, kickstarted it, runs... than try to e-start: no spark!!
kicked it again, sparked and was running with the same sparkplug.
he went with the bike to the local ktm-shop and they solved the problem with better isolation, that the voltage of the e-start-system cant touch the engine-cases and only works between battery and e-start-motor as an closed system, because the ignition also use the engine housing to work as an electric circle. any external voltage will bother it and the spark could be completely gone or simply not strong enough to ignite .
my idea is, that you should install an isolating gasket to the ignition cover and isolating washers between cover and bolts, that no e-start voltage could reach the ignition system...
... its worth a try !! :-D
sometimes is the problem much smaller as it looks in first... :wink:
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hi motopunk....do you mean the ground is robbing the CDI ground?It kick starts fine....but when cranking with a spark plug in i got no spark(ive have a spare plug in the cap) whip out the lug in the engine which gives me more crank over speed(and unloads the starter motor) i got spark.....Having a fresh look at it today i thought id check the power to the CDI from the charge coil in the stator cover....i think i found something....during cranking i get 8.7 ac volts....plug out i get 11-12 ac.......so next i kick started it and tested the volts at idle....i got 10AC volts and climbing at revs....To me this means the operational voltage of the CDI is from 10 volts to say 50?so now i need to find out what the KTM300 has at crank....or force feed 10-20ac volts to the cdi from an auxillary power suple (a plug pack from a wall power for testing purposes,then i can rig some thing up onboard permenantly)
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You have already shown yourself to be more superior at this sort of thing than most so my 2cents is probably not worth much. but it sounds like a cranking speed issue to me I have had quite a few differant atvs that when the battery is old ore the starter worn that will sound like they are cranking fast but wont start intill either pulled or kicked or hooked to a charger .
When are you going to start selling those adapter plates??
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hi toby any input is appreciated mate :-) I aggree with you there on the cranking rpm...but i tell you i reckon im close to makimng enough power....everyone thats herd it crank over has commented that they have never heard a KTM300 crank over that fast....i need to get my hands on a KTM and check the cranking power thats generated from the CDI charge coil....also how many puffs i get out the pipe per 10 secs of cranking and and work out the cranking rpm's and compare to mine
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Another cool way to measure RPM's is to get a frequency measuring App for your smart phone (if you have one) and hold it by the exhaust outlet while cranking. They make some guitar tuning Apps too that may work great for this!
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hi motopunk....do you mean the ground is robbing the CDI ground?It kick starts fine....but when cranking with a spark plug in i got no spark(ive have a spare plug in the cap) whip out the lug in the engine which gives me more crank over speed(and unloads the starter motor) i got spark.....Having a fresh look at it today i thought id check the power to the CDI from the charge coil in the stator cover....i think i found something....during cranking i get 8.7 ac volts....plug out i get 11-12 ac.......so next i kick started it and tested the volts at idle....i got 10AC volts and climbing at revs....To me this means the operational voltage of the CDI is from 10 volts to say 50?so now i need to find out what the KTM300 has at crank....or force feed 10-20ac volts to the cdi from an auxillary power suple (a plug pack from a wall power for testing purposes,then i can rig some thing up onboard permenantly)
yes thats exactly my thought... its worth a try, to see if the spark comes back by e-start. i saw your video and the 300īs turns also with this crank speed. by kicking over is the crank on the most bikes slower as by e-start...
crank speed measuring is also a great idea for direct comparing between ktm 300 and kx500 . also a stronger battery could bring better e start performance.
you do a real great work . the first one who make this to reality and i think you are very very close to the finish line of this project... 8-)
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thanks bloke :-) im going to pick up a ktm300 tonight so i can do some tests with it over the weekend :-)
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waiting for results... :mrgreen:
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Hi cbrfrenzie...I missed your post,I also thought of trying that aswell!!!!
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ok gents....i found the problem.....the pick up isnt strong enough to operate at the rpm the engine is cranking at (maybe 20-30 rm less then the ktm) i took an old pick up,cranked the engine and waved a piece of tool steel past it with a plug in the engine and one in the coil cap and sure enough everytime i passed the pick u i got a spark....so now i need to find a more powerful pick up or make the existing one stronger by drilling a hole in the back and putting a small strong magnet directly on the back of the core
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sounds good... youre now on the straight way to the goal... 8-)
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The oem ktm 300 starter is notoriously bad. Please get the uprated 2013 + version . It has 410w of power as opposed to the 350ish watts of the pre 2013 starter .
Also , check the bendix and gears. You might need to re-shim .
:)
It looks like a very interesting modification . I would have used a bigger , 600w starter if I were you .
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Hi duudu....if you read a bit further back I'm using the new starter....I don't see no problems with this starter assembly apart from filling up with mud/dust/water through the original breather hole with an unlubricated system then someone leaning on the starter wondering why it's not working when I've just discovered that a KTM that's slightly down in cranking RPM is NEVER going to fire because its NEVER going to spark!!!!!!I believe I have the answer to a majority of the starter failures out there...from an engineering aspect,the mechanics of this system are fine....but it does have design flaws(breather hole,lack of lubrication) From an electronic point of view,it also has a problem....combined together leads to detrimental harm to the mechanical components ....bottom line is they or any other starter motor wont stand a chance when the engines never going to fire without spark ....no good cutting your leg off then trying to put a bandaid on it
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I also think that this isn't getting spotted because when you think "oh it's not starting on the starter,I'd better check to see if its sparking" out comes the plug,shove it in the cap crank it now with no resistance on the system and whammo it's got spark..."oh it's got spark the problems not electrical" when as sure as my arse points to the ground....the problem is electrical!!!!
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motopunk.....just having a think about your friend with the ktm300 starter issues....i reckon i know what they done....the powder coat on the engine cover is very very thick....so another issue i just thought about today (not with mine but ktm300 owners) the starter,charging coil and all the other gear thats bolted to the cover cant get an earth properly....On a standard powdercoated cover the only earth they have is two dowel pins and the starter gears themselves....im guessing a fix for this is to run a thick cable from the starter body which is raw alloy finish to the chassis.....or atleast clean the bolt surface from the case cover so the bolts transmit earth
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i canīt remember what exactly was done by the shop... the bike was sold 2 years ago...
what i still know is that they made an isolation between the startercover and the crankcase.
after this, the bike started properly with an good spark and the problem was gone...
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i canīt remember what exactly was done by the shop... the bike was sold 2 years ago...
what i still know is that they made an isolation between the startercover and the crankcase.
after this, the bike started properly with an good spark and the problem was gone...
What was the cover made of??
Team green had issues with ignition once due to stator cover
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i canīt remember what exactly was done by the shop... the bike was sold 2 years ago...
what i still know is that they made an isolation between the startercover and the crankcase.
after this, the bike started properly with an good spark and the problem was gone...
What was the cover made of??
Team green had issues with ignition once due to stator cover
in this case it was the stock cover of the ktm300 with the e-start, same like ylwgtr is using in his project. not sure if it is aluminium or magnesium made...
hmmm.. as far as i know, team green never used electric-starts at the k5 .. interesting... what kind of problem was it exactly??
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Not much to update except I will have a "CDI dyno" before the end of the week....I will be able to bolt all the parts to it and dial in any amount of RPM and see what all the components are doing at any given RPM....it's about to get real interesting!!!
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also interesting: the diference between kickstart rpm and e-start-rpm... 8-)
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Ok boys....I've picked up the CDI "dyno" it's going to get interesting here...I'm need to make a mounting jig for the KTM stuff and do a few runs to see what it does...I will also run up the standard kx500 stuff and I wouldn't mind running up one of those other ones you guys are using....will be interesting to see all the outputs/spark maps on all of these units...stay tuned :)
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(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps9abe7ec6.jpg)
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Wow!
That is getting interesting.
Please post your findings.
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Oh oh!!!im excited!!!Tomorrow I will have the answer why oh why there so many ktm300 electric start issues!!!Im 99% sure I know the answer but Im not saying anything yet!!!Anyway got some good info so far it's 12am after a 40degree day I been busting my balls but here's a 10k run up on a DC CDI system
http://youtu.be/lTIZM3fg5lU (http://youtu.be/lTIZM3fg5lU)
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Maybe KTM will give you a new bike if you share that info with them :lol:
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little bit questioning to my kawasaki and ind same person ktm-dealer... the e-start-system on the earlier ktm 300 is a helping tool for sections with died engine and to less space to use the kickstarter... the earlier systems are not strong enough for coldstart... the last 300 2stroke enduro they sold was my buddies bike 4 years ago...
was hoping to find some info, that could help...
what says the dynotest ?? 8-)
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Ok I'll spill it....what I see is the ktm requires 670 rpm to start producing spark....With all the mechanical design faults I found,the original system must be tittering over the edge of working and not working out of the box...SO,it's looking like its a firmware problem!!!As big as these companies are believe it or not sometimes there are miscommunication between the contracting companies and the main manufacture...and sometimes there's just things that have been forgotten about or simply not even thought of....I reckon there is a perimeter for functionability that's a f up in the CDI...today I will prove it is infact the CDI box itself or the trigger pick up by placing a second pick up tab on the flywheel ...what this will do is trick the cdi into thinking its doing double the RPM it really is...the sensor itself is happy to see and relay what it sees on the flywheel
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On another note if anyone wants some of these I got plenty...50 sets...it was the only way I could get them done was in volume...I got shafted on the cost :(
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zps6d7b0820.jpg)
(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s398/ylwgtr2/null_zpsf3054ad4.jpg)
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How much a set including shipping to the US?
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let me count how many i got and will divide my arse raping into it and we can all share the love :D
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Righto boys exceptional news....it cranks and starts off the starter motor like a ripper!!!!All I've heard along the way is "this won't work that won't work blah blah blah" All this is a drive for me....Think of something you want to do boys and chase down the answers and make it happen 8-)
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That's great news.
What was the issue and the fix?
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I no longer have a ktm CDI to test...I will have to wait for it to come back before I can say for sure but I'm confident in saying its a firmware error....it locks out spark below a specific rpm..one which is far to low for my kx to fire and I'm guessing on the edge of the ktm's mechanicals rotation once the bendix gets dry,battery is run down or starter a bit worn(2 hours after it was new ;) ) I've switched to a mappable DC CDI for the moment...may look at reverting back to an Ac one once I get it 100% back together and tuned..but for the moment I'm happy to have conquered this project,it's been a bit of thinking but I got a result...
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real good news... you caught the devil that has stolen the sparks... :-)
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heres a crappy vid....will post up a better one once i wire it all up and finish it off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej2RUrzmvEc&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej2RUrzmvEc&feature=youtu.be)
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That is absolutely the coolest bike on the planet Earth right now. Check this out Kawasaki,,,, wasting R&D on crap when the best off-road motor sits on the shelf.
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you got it running with the e-start... awesome to see that it works now.. :-)
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Okay. I want one
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Okay. I want one
Buy two and give me one :lol:
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Well done. Fancy building another :-D
I am getting mine dyno tuned today. Sick of screwing around with jetting. First runs showed that it was performing less than a 450. So we will see what the day brings
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If you will, please post your results and the jetting you settled with.
Thanks.
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Yep im still not convinced about these engines,doing more fine tuning on the CDI dyno right now....But im not done yet i have some other ideas left......again,stay tuned!
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I will post the results.
Ylwgtr,
I will still send you ignition as promised so you can compare.
Ok?
TSF
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great idea!
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Well, initial results are in. My KLX500 needs air, and more than the standard air box can give. Now I know some of the more knowledgable among you will say "duh", but this is a learning exercise with some r&d along the way. I thought I had opened it up enough.
The klx airbox is too restricted in the midrange. More playing to follow. Looks like I am stopping at the hardware store on the 6 hour drive home to get some hole saws.
Ylwgtr,
This might be worth looking into to get some of that missing power on your klx
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yep i been there mate i cut the whole top off the box.....did you run it with the side cover off?Or was it still struggling with it removed?
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Yeah mate. Side cover off and seat off to get max airflow. Huge difference. It was run with the seat off and then with the side cover off. Massive gain with the cover off. I need to modify the rhs of the airbox to simulate the air flow. Final test done with seat on and side cover off. I will scan the charts when I get home and post the starting point and the final superimposed. Well with the 18 dyno runs.
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Oh, and this was after the jetting changes
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please hurry up and post graphs. :evil:
real legit kx5 dyno #'s are a rarity!
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Gotta get home first. 5 hours to go
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Righto ladies and gents. Please see the attached curves. Now before you all start saying "my bike makes more than that", I did a direct comparison between a heavily modified KX450 and mine and the peak power is within 1 hp of each other. The technician superimposed them and I can tell you that the 450 made similar peak power, but the 500 did it at about half the revs. And that is what makes it more brutal than the 450 as it doesn't have to wind up as much. He wasn't allowed to give me a print out, but I took some notes and at 50% of the 500's revs, it was producing 34 to 36 hp at the rear wheel. The 450 was at about 70% of the 11,000rpm to deliver the same power. The 500 produced about 4-6 ft-lbs more than the 450 and again at lower revs.
The blue line is the starting mess that I had. Airbox restricted, needle too lean to compensate for the airbox (although not lean enough to detonate). It was just like riding with the choke on all the time. It made power and torque up top and a lot down low, with a big dip in the middle (actually a huge dip).
Power curve:
(http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/TSF500/DSCF2300.jpg)
Torque Curve:
(http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t377/TSF500/DSCF2301.jpg)
I discussed why it didn't have the hp I expected to see after the tune, and he said that to draw an accurate comparison between the two bikes, you should really test both bikes on the same dyno closely timed to each other to eliminate temperature and humidity differences.
Jetting as it stands (still yet to tune the pilot jet, but it is running way too rich)
Pilot: 58
Slide: #7
Needle: N82M on the middle clip
Main:168.
How do you like them apples? Big change to the performance and he said the bike will be chalk and cheese to ride now compared to before.
TSF
P.S. Sorry ylwgtr, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, but seeing it was testing the KLX500, I thought it would be ok to put here. Perhaps an admin can move it to the Jetting again, and again thread.
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I'm happy for it to stay here bloke...thanks for posting....my take on dyno's are they are a tuning tool and thats it...im not interested in HP figures myself...your jetting is pretty much the same as mine except I got a smaller pilot with an opened up air box....Now that I've sorted the CDI,electric start I'm going to start cleaning the engine specs.....I have a very well known guy down here that's an absolute genius with two strokes....his name is bruce woodley
Bruce is very interested in doing this bike because of the stuff I've already done to it so this is a MASSIVE plus....another question for you guys..how much would you guys like to see EFI? ;)
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Thanks for posting the DYNO.
It is similar to others I have seen.
On jetting, here is what Pro Circuit recommends
Main 168, Pilot 55, Needle N82M, Position 2ND, Air Screw 1 3/4
I played around with my jetting for years until Motorrad told me what I should use and guess what?
Pro Circuit agrees :lol:
This is for sea level.
In 14 years of riding it, my sand bike has never ran so good.
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I am with you on the dyno charts as a tuning tool. The dyno charts helped me identify more power and better use. Outright power doesn't really interest me either. The technician did say that instead of "marching" away from 450's, it will now thrash them no questions asked.
I didn't know what the problem was until I did this and would never have known and kept riding the way it was. I am happy to use it as a quantitative tool to test small changes, and it has proven it's worth. I am going to cut the crap out of the airbox today and basically replicate the hole size (an maybe more if I can) that is on the left, and make it on the right. After stuffing around with the jetting for a few months, I was getting sick of it and needed to sort it out, so viola.
Fuel injection would be nice, but I really like the electric start....... :-D When can we modify mine....?. :evil:
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ylwgtr, how is your e-start development progressing for the 500? I am sure there is a lot of us that want to see your project completed. :-D
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hi yeah its completed!If you check a few posts back its running and starting off the button......I havent done anything further with it at the moment....Now ive fixed the electrics i need to tend to this whoafull engine kawasaki call a 500cc twostroke!Bruce will be doing the cylinder and head in the next few months so until then not much will happen unfortunatly.........if you cant tell,im STILL not sold on this engine :) but the electric start is cool
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Seeing we are still on the KLX500, I think I have found the sweet jetting numbers. As asked earlier here are my almost final numbers, but my jetting is still rich in the mid range, but very good down low.
Pilot 48
Needle N82P on the second from top clip
Slide #7
Main 165
Hey ylwgtr, any further work on your KLX500?
TSF
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time for a bump start. Sorry i meant to say electric start. Come on Ylwgtr time to come in from the sticks and fill us in on this bike..when are you gonna do a few of those electric start adapters, look after us aussies first mate :-D