KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: Gage on July 06, 2013, 10:09:02 AM
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Okay so I put a new top end on a K5 89-04 mismatched years used Millennium Tech re-plated 88MM, brand new 39mm Keihin PWK 165 main 58 slow 3rd clip from top air 1.5 live in Ocala FL, New Gnarly Desert Pipe, Nature friendly muffler, New boyesen reed cage/ intake, passed air and vacuum tests, idles good, revs good, sounds good, runs okay down low but doesn't seem to have much hit to it. Up high it kinda just skips over its power-band in 4th, 5th. Black oil running out the muffler. Ive been having trouble with for a little while now. Tried a lot of different things nothing seems to change it. I 95% sure I put the PV in right, the side lever pulls when I rev it. I read some where on here that the boyesen reeds are more for low, did I mess up pairing it with the desert exhaust? I'm out of ideas, suggestions?
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an easy check on the valves being in correct is to pull the pipe & manually operate them while looking up the exhaust, not running of course. move the 10mm nut, with a box end wrench ,where the output comes out of the clutch cover
what oil & ratio you using?
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32:1
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL5FVRbTygk&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL5FVRbTygk&feature=youtu.be) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GWhs0-p7vg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GWhs0-p7vg&feature=youtu.be) Posted 2 videos of them opening I think they're right.
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Yup they're right
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Rear wheel bearings maybe?
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Black oil running out the muffler.
work on your jetting....too lean on top,too fat down low.
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Okay so what bigger main and what else?
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you gotta let us know what kind of riding you do....trails,track,desert...ect....can't just throw numbers out there without knowing if you're doing mostly 1/2 to full throttle riding or hardly ever at WOT.
But if you have black oil running outa the silencer/exhaust....you're way too rich somewhere...and I'll put my money on the low end.
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Man I just take it around block lol :-D I meant to say whats the best way of leaning out the bottom end? Slow jet? Air screw? It surges 6-7 times after WOT in 4th 5th with the clutch in too.
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that surging is a good indicator that you are too lean on top...go to at least a 170main.
drop your pilot down to a 55,you might even have to go down to a 52pilot.
and you can try changing the clip to the 2nd from top position....that may make it too lean for your riding style,so pay close attention to how it runs,you might have to go back to the 3rd position...it should be a lot more crisp in the 2nd from top.
this will also help your black oil problem go away.
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Alright thanks I appreciate the help I'll give it try.
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another thing you can try for the surging...is adjust the idle screw so that it WON'T idle....I learned this off this site a while back because mine used to surge like mad.....it didn't completely stop the surging,but it made a huge difference.
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another thing you can try for the surging...is adjust the idle screw so that it WON'T idle....I learned this off this site a while back because mine used to surge like mad.....it didn't completely stop the surging,but it made a huge difference.
Leave the air screw alone after right?
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yes,once you have it set.
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another thing you can try for the surging...is adjust the idle screw so that it WON'T idle....I learned this off this site a while back because mine used to surge like mad.....it didn't completely stop the surging,but it made a huge difference.
That surge can be eliminated with the powervalves not over closing Foxx.
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mine don't over close...and from watching Gages videos,his weren't either.
it's just in the K5s nature to surge at some degree...some do it worse than others.
take an old YZ490 for instance....I rode a friends 82 that would shoot me right over berms every time.
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For a 88mm bore would my head needed to cut to fit? If so maybe that's the problem I have.
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I bought a motor that had an 87.5 piston and stock head. As a result the head gasket went and the front of the piston was destroyed. I have a picture somewhere ill see if I can find. But I would say you defineately should modify the head to fit. Site sponsor Pinsonnault racing did mine.
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For a 88mm bore would my head needed to cut to fit? If so maybe that's the problem I have.
that's a pretty important piece of info you left out in the beginning...I agree with Pmcg...you should have the head cut/matched....but I'm still not sold on that being 100% of your problem....you still have jetting issues that need to be fixed.I don't know if anyone on here is running a 165main,that's just too lean...I run a 168 and that's on the lean side,but my bike hardly ever sees WOT,so I can get away with it....and your low circuit jetting is causing your black oil/spooge problem.
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I don't wale on the throttle to much. So should I even ride it anymore? Or try to jet it? It sounds good at idle and it doesn't leak. I emailed Pinsonnault Racing from ebay because the site was down. I probably call tomorrow, will I just have to send off the head and tell them to cut it and resurface for an 88mm bore or what? Will they need the piston? And does any one know how much this will run?
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wait and see what Todd from Pinsonnault recommends,that's what he specializes in.
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Todd is really good. Very competitive prices quick turnaround and really good work. I'm sending him my crank for balancing this week.
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I'm running a 158 Main jet in my 87 and my 98 had a 160 main jet. Im at about 600ft elevation in Michigan.
Before anyone tells you what clip position on the needle tell us the numbers stamped on it. It may be the wrong needle for the kx500. I'm currently running a kx250 needle.
The head and gasket need to be for an 88mm bore or it will never run right no matter how much jetting you do.
Check the timing. If it's off to much it wont burn all the fuel and will cause black spooge even if you are jetted properly.
32:1 is a good ratio. I've been using that in all my bikes for 20 some years and never blown one up.
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my bike is running a 160m and a 52p with the clip in the 2nd spot and my plug still stays a lil dark and im rough on this ole bitch.. hahhahahaah
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160mains...my bike would meltdown in minutes if I threw in one of those...then again,I'm running a few mods....and with Gage running an 88mm bore...I'm skeptical about it being able to survive on a smaller main...I went to an 87mm bore and that forced me to fatten up my jetting.
It's better to see him start off a little on the richer side and work down...than start off too lean and have an expensive preventable meltdown....USMC 500 can verify what happens when running too small of a main....no offense USMC.
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Took the head off today going to mail it tomorrow to Pinsonnault Racing, having the head resurfaced and cut to fit 88MM. I'm going to order this http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMETIC-TOP-END-GASKET-KIT-88MM-KAWASAKI-KX-500-91-04-/330759879969?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d02d33d21&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMETIC-TOP-END-GASKET-KIT-88MM-KAWASAKI-KX-500-91-04-/330759879969?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d02d33d21&vxp=mtr) and this http://www.ebay.com/itm/KEIHIN-CARBURETOR-SIZE-55-SLOW-JET-FOR-PJ-PWK-PWM-/290529527013?hash=item43a4e8c4e5&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KEIHIN-CARBURETOR-SIZE-55-SLOW-JET-FOR-PJ-PWK-PWM-/290529527013?hash=item43a4e8c4e5&vxp=mtr). I have a 70,75,80,85 mains. Think I'm good?
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start with the 175main....do a WOT chop run,then check the plug color,and adjust from there.
Pay attention to how it runs at slow speeds with the 55pilot...if it feels/sounds blubbery or like it's loading up,then you'll need to drop one more size.
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Pinsonault might be able to get you a good price on the gaskets too. They sell them with their kits.
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Pinsonault might be able to get you a good price on the gaskets too. They sell them with their kits.
Ill ask about them thanks
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How are you guys measuring you powerbands? Mine is very wide since the rebuild and I chose the blue, but I'm not sure how long it is. Now I know why everything is going electrical,,,much easier.
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(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/cat123456789101/powerband.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/cat123456789101/media/powerband.jpg.html)
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I prefere natural rubber power bands. Gives the best old type smooth torque power like older European bikes. Vs the heavy hitting orange and red synthetic rubber bands, they hit like late 80's 125....
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Got the head back with a 88mm gasket. Still waiting on the slow jet...... I'm hitting 155 psi sounds good?
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155psi is good...quite good.....when you can't get any higher than 125psi,that's when you want to start being a little concerned.
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Ya that was it I wore my foot off out on those 4 or 5 kicks. The bike seems to rev out ALOT better than before. The wheel is coming off the ground in 2nd. And 3rd when I chop it hard, Im certain there more power to be had. I have a 185 main in it now, which feels a little bit blubbery up high. It doesn't surge AT ALL when letting off the throttle now either, I lowered the idle down and the air screw in 0.5 turns out. The revs still dont feel right like its cutting out a bit short in the upper rpms, or Idk how to say it, like the bike loses power sorta. Im going to take it to a long road tomorrow and do some chop runs and check the plugs. Do you guys think that that lower pilot will help out a bit, it's farting oil outta the muffler still. Shouldn't the air screw be out more as well?
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Ideally the air screw wants to be 1.5 turns out....give or take a 1/4 turn.
Here,scroll down to Sandblasters post....this is one of the better explanations for your air screw setting....and jetting in general on here.
http://www.kxriders.com/forums/index.php/topic,10910.0.html
A 185main is like a fire hose :lol:....you should be able to drop down to mid 170s.
Repack your silencer too...start off fresh..that thing's probably saturated with spooge.
What size pilot is in it as of now?...what position is your clip in?
Another quick simple thing you can verify,is where your timing is set at...that can change the power curve/delivery in ways you're explaining ....the previous owner could've played with it.
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That's a good link, they should sticky that some where. Okay so I'm at a 58 now, clips at the top. Now that I see that the pilot circuit effects the main as well to some extant, Should I just wait until my 55 gets here? Not even bother with the chop runs, will it effect it that much? I think the stators in line with the marks, Ill check that too. Thanks for the help
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I'm thinkin the 55Pilot will be a better choice....
Drop the clip down to the middle...(3rd from top)...being where it is now(at the top),it's in the leanest position...not a good place to be.There's a chance it might be a bit rich in the 3rd from top...but try it....it should help.
Then you can try the 2nd from top if it feels blubbery being in the 3rd from top.
And definitely do the chop runs....and let us know how the plugs look...pics help :wink:
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Didn't get to the chop runs yet, rain! Right or wrong???
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3768/9453572162_44faffa45d_o.jpg)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2851/9453571390_51fc3cb49d_o.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/9450789803_6de366ea08_o.jpg)
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Okay fixed the stator which was on there wrong and put my 55 pilot in today and the bike seems to have alot more power. It smokes alot less now too. It pops wheelies effortlessly in 1st 2nd 3rd. It still revs out funny though Idk how to describe it sorta zingy. When the weather clears up and I get some time I'll do some chop runs with fresh plugs and take pictures. Do you guys think I should replace my muffler packaging or will it dry out? It's a brand new muffler. :|
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it's a long shot....but how's your clutch adjustment?..do you have at least 2-3mm of play at the lever?....it doesn't seem like it's slipping does it?
where's the clip position now?...and are you still running that massive 185main?
if the silencer is really dripping/spraying all over the place...it can't hurt to open it up and take a look....just get a package of fresh packing to have on hand before you do....but if it doesn't seem to be spooging badly,I wouldn't bother if it's really that new.
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So I should be able to pull my lever 2-3mm without it moving the clutch arm right? It might be slipping :|, is there any good way to tell? I'll have to check that out tomorrow. I have the clip set 2nd notch from top and a 175 main now. From a few test rides around the block, I think I need to go a size lower. It's still kinda dripping but it might just be leftover, because it smokes a lot less now. I guess I shouldn't say ''zingy'' it's more like it revs out too quick. It's MUCH torquer down low now, like it could go up a wall. How much do you think my boyesen reed's with the gnarly desert pipe will affect it? A woods gnarly would have been better with the boyesen right?
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yes there should be a little free play at the clutch lever...
a 170 or 172 main should get you where you want to be.What pipe is on there now?....I ask because the FMF Woods pipe will flatten out just about the time you've clicked into 5th gear :x....the Desert pipe just keeps pulling for as long as you have the balls to hold it wide open.
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I'd go 168 on your main and set your clip to the middle or 3rd position.
The rest of your questions..... I'm saving those for others to join in on :-)
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If you set the clip to the 3rd position,pay close attention to how it runs compared to the 2nd position where it is now....you will lose a considerable amount of crispness and snap.I've run in both positions and found it runs much cleaner in the 2nd position...I've also changed my needle to the N82T from the N82R a couple weeks ago..(even leaner)...in the 2nd position...and I'm extremely happy with it now....it's all gonna depend on your preferences which you like better.
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Mine pings like crazy at the 2nd from the top position, but different temps, humidity, altitude, engine condition, fuel, premix, riding style, and boot size all play a part :-)
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yup...not everyone can get away with the 2nd clip....that's why my 1st sentence said to pay close attention to how it runs.
If I go to the 3rd...it's just too fat...and it has a completely different exhaust tone when in the 3rd that just sounds "rich". :-)
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that's why my 1st sentence said to pay close attention to how it runs.
Yeah, but you know I can't read :-P
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haha....that's ok...about this time of night,I'm lucky if I can even speak....frozen mudslides have been going down like water with how hot and humid it's been here on the east coast the last couple weeks.
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Ah, the dreaded mudslides.... I have to take my social lubricants straight as the sugar isn't good for me at all :cry:
I love mudslides.... and sugar :lol:
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I love mudslides.... and sugar :lol:
lol...yup,all too much....I feel like Homer Simpson sometimes...."mmmmmmm doughhhhhh-nuts"
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A buddy of mine came over with his own home made Kailua and we made mudslides. Around the third one I couldn't see straight and he told me he used ever clear in the Kailua. Awesome night.
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used ever clear in the Kailua. Awesome night.
been 20 years since I've had any of that
that stuff could grow hair on the bottom of your feet! :evil:
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Ya idk I was getting on it today and the bike just seems to cut out when it's under a heavy load. It doesn't feel fuel related it's mostly happening in high 3rd and 4th. Like you hit and it'll pop up then just cuts makes a zing sorta noise. I've been trying to get some one out to my area who knows something. I know it's hard for you guys to give me advice with the details I'm giving you. I really appreciate everyone's help thus far, it's running 10X better than a few weeks ago. One of the wires in the wiring harness is rigged up sorta strange and the stator is so nasty looking. So I guess Ill start there because of it feels and how it revs out and my gut feeling. Thanks again Gage.
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I have some engine and electrical service specs here:
http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=344 (http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=344)
I also have a K5 electrical trouble shooting article here:
http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=163 (http://www.oem-cycle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=163)
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Ya idk I was getting on it today and the bike just seems to cut out when it's under a heavy load. It doesn't feel fuel related it's mostly happening in high 3rd and 4th. Like you hit and it'll pop up then just cuts makes a zing sorta noise. I've been trying to get some one out to my area who knows something. I know it's hard for you guys to give me advice with the details I'm giving you. I really appreciate everyone's help thus far, it's running 10X better than a few weeks ago. One of the wires in the wiring harness is rigged up sorta strange and the stator is so nasty looking. So I guess Ill start there because of it feels and how it revs out and my gut feeling. Thanks again Gage.
hmmmm.... that sounds, like the ignition-timing is a little bit to late... you can try and turn the stator-plate ca an 1/2 - 1 mm backwards ... that makes an earlier ignition-timing. but before this, please mark the exact actual position. :wink:
if this not help, turn back to the actual point and plan b: 1. try another ignition coil and 2. measure out, where the fail sits (cdi or statorplate)... after this : plan c is a change in the jetting, too rich can make the same problem... great help: look at www.oem-cycle.com in the kx500-jetting-guide
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so what does it do after it makes this "zing sorta noise"?...does it die out?,keep running?,keep running but running like s**t/cutting out?
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Idk guys I had somebody come out today and told me there wasn't jack s**t wrong with it. :| Except for the dry rotted tires. It doesn't cut off, like shut off, but it just seems like it revs out to fast to where I believe it robs it of some of it's power. Idk my buddy was putting the rear fender on the asphalt today so maybe hes right. Maybe I just gotta learn to ride it better. I'm getting a tan color spark plug too, maybe it should be a little darker. I'll take some pics as soon as I get my camera back to show you guys.
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I think I asked this in a previous post....but what/which pipe are you running on there right now?
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The desert gnarly with a those boyesen reeds.
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And plus a long narrow muffler with a spark arrestor. My friend told me that might be robbing it of some of it's power. 170 main middle clip 55 pilot air screw 1 out. The humidity is constantly changing here.
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gnarly desert or gnarly woods?....it makes a huge difference having one or the other....find out exactly which one you're running.
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Gnarly desert.
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if you look at the mount tab on the pipe that goes under the tank....there will be a number stamped on there...
020038 is the desert pipe...which just keeps pulling for as long as you can hang on.
020055 is the woods pipe....which signs off WAY early...like as soon as you click into 5th it's done making power.
I have both...and I'll NEVER use the woods pipe again.
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I'm going to look into getting some v2 reeds. I think I screwed up getting the boyesen, low end paired with top can't be whats best for the bike. No? Need both for bottom or top right?
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I'm going to look into getting some v2 reeds. I think I screwed up getting the boyesen, low end paired with top can't be whats best for the bike. No? Need both for bottom or top right?
Your gonna need a lot of luck finding some VF2s....not saying you won't,but you're gonna have your work cut out for you....they're like golden crack on the market these days.
I wouldn't bother getting VF3s....not after reading Motorrads thread on them....worst case,get a stock cage with aftermarket reeds. :x
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I'm going to look into getting some v2 reeds. I think I screwed up getting the boyesen, low end paired with top can't be whats best for the bike. No? Need both for bottom or top right?
Your gonna need a lot of luck finding some VF2s....not saying you won't,but you're gonna have your work cut out for you....they're like golden crack on the market these days.
I wouldn't bother getting VF3s....not after reading Motorrads thread on them....worst case,get a stock cage with aftermarket reeds. :x
My choices in order of preferance.
VF2
stock cage (with reed stuffer) with a reed spacer with a set of carbon tech reeds, or boysen carbon fibre ones....
NO DUAL STAGE REEDS
No Vf3