KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: RKPerformance on April 29, 2013, 02:20:20 AM
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So i just picked up a new to me 2000 KX500AF scoot. Took it out for the initial run and it is a major dog compared to my CR500. This thing will barely, i mean barely pull the front wheel in first. So I start looking into things including the jetting. It has a FMF Fatty pipe with fmf silencer...rest is stock. 162main, 52pilot. Seems reasonable to me, but it runs so crappy i think maybe it is lean. Put a 168 main in it and it wouldnt get out of its own way at all, now runs like a pw80. Check the compression it is 150 after a few kicks with shoes on cold. So then i decide to check the needle and i find a n4we needle in it. Never heard of that needle before and from what i can find it belongs in a kx250? Does anyone know why that needle would be in there and if that probably has something to do with why it runs like a pile of crap. Is 150lbs acceptable comp? Any help would be appreciated!!
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Pull the KIPS actuator/rod cover off on the right side of the cylinder (rectangular silver plastic piece). Start the bike up and see if the KIPS rod is pulling in and out smoothly when you give it some gas. Sounds like your exhaust valves may not be working correctlty.
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I will check the powervale operation, but im thinking this needle that is in here has the bike all jacked up???
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I don't think it is the needle, not sure which you have but I run the 250 carb bored to a 40.5 and use the 250 needle and have no issues.
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I too have run the 250 carb and needle before with no issues. Running a 38mm Pwk with #7 slide and 250 needle in my 87 for the past 3 years.
Hows the spark plug look? Pull the pipe and look at the piston skirt. Could be a crank seal which is the same issue I'm going through with my 87. If the plug is dark it's too rich and could be caused by a leaking right crank seal. If it's white it could be the stator side crank seal.
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Might be the air filter, there was another guy on here that went to replace his air filter and eventually got to the bottom of his problem. He started a whole thread about it. The other ideas are good too. plug,reeds,crankcase seal, KIPS. i had a mouse build a nest in my pipe once. It was strangely quiet and ran like butt.
let us know what you find out!
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Well I took the rod cover off and the pipe off to check operation of the valves. Rotating the arm all 3 valves appear to move and close as they are supposed to. I noticed a little coolant in that rubber elbow that houses the rod lever. No idea why there would be a little coolant in there?? Piston looked really good as did cylinder. One thing troubling to me was the pipe. It is a FMF Fatty pipe and whoever did this conversion really rammed this pipe in there. The neck bend coming off the cylinder is pinched very very tight. I dont know hoe it can breathe. Also near the end of the main expansion chamber the pipe is smashed waay in for clearance issues. Im starting to think this pipe is a major restricting point on the bike. The frame is a 2000 kx250AF. DOnt know who did the conversion either so i dont know what kind of pipe i can use to try and see if another pipe is better>>>?
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Might be the air filter, there was another guy on here that went to replace his air filter and eventually got to the bottom of his problem. He started a whole thread about it. The other ideas are good too. plug,reeds,crankcase seal, KIPS. i had a mouse build a nest in my pipe once. It was strangely quiet and ran like butt.
let us know what you find out!
Gee Alex, who could that guy be that you are speaking of...... :-D
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Here is a pic of the neck
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Here is the pipe near the end. I know it is hard to tell how far in the dent goes but it is huge and goes for a long ways, same with the neck bend it is amazing air can flow thru it!
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Those dents seem to be a bit overkill. It should still run better than described though. I'm not sure if you can get just the pipe or not but Service Honda was building pipes for the aluminum frames at one time.
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Frame is a 2000 KX250
Pipe is a FMF Fatty
No idea who did the conversion, but the welds and overall conversion look minty
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Well I took the rod cover off and the pipe off to check operation of the valves. Rotating the arm all 3 valves appear to move and close as they are supposed to. I noticed a little coolant in that rubber elbow that houses the rod lever. No idea why there would be a little coolant in there?? Piston looked really good as did cylinder. One thing troubling to me was the pipe. It is a FMF Fatty pipe and whoever did this conversion really rammed this pipe in there. The neck bend coming off the cylinder is pinched very very tight. I dont know hoe it can breathe. Also near the end of the main expansion chamber the pipe is smashed waay in for clearance issues. Im starting to think this pipe is a major restricting point on the bike. The frame is a 2000 kx250AF. DOnt know who did the conversion either so i dont know what kind of pipe i can use to try and see if another pipe is better>>>?
I'm pretty sure they didn't make aluminum frames in 2000... Did you buy this bike from the ktm dealer in medford oregon?
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first kx-f aluminium frames were build in 2007 .
i think only your engine is a 2000 . :wink:
i also think you should buy the stock needle for the kx500E-models and take the dents out of this pipe,as much as possible. check the crank seals, base gasket and reed insert for air leaks.
thats the only way to solve that problem... 8-)
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2006, close enough
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How does the engine sound when accelerating ? Does it sound deep burbly rich ? is the power flattening out in the midrange ? Your jetting seems to be in the ballpark of what most of us are running. Could be the dents in the pipe, but i've seen some nasty dents in a pipe and the engine will still run great.. Did your engine ever run 100% ?
FYI, I had the same exact engine symptoms right after doing a top end in my K5, long story short, I mis-timed the KIPS gears assembling my new top end.
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I just got the bike so no it has never run "right" It does sound really burbly and smokes pretty good. The kips seems to be working by hand and opening and closing right. It was amazing how s**tty it would run when i put a 168 main in it. A 125 would run past me easily. Think i should try a 160 main if nothing else seems to be off with the bike?
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I just measured the carb and it looks like it is a 40mm bored. Is it possible that the tight bend and pinch in the neck of the pipe is restricting exhaust so much that it isnt allowing the valves to open all the way? The pipe is filled with black slobber too.
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The exhaust valves are regulated by a governor as I understand it, not exhaust pressure, so the kink in the pipe shouldn't affect the valve operation. However, if the pipe is kinked, it does increase backpressure which isn't good as it can greatly affect performance. You want some backpressure to keep intake gasses in the cylinder (rather than the exhaust), but not so much that it pushes intake gas back out of the cylinder.
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Idealy if you could bolt on a stock k5 pipe and try the bike that would approve or dissaprove speculations about the pipe being kinked and restricted..
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More Info>
The pipe on it is a FMF Fatty # 160797 Y-28
Doing some research this it seems to fit yz250s from 93-4 & wr250s from 94-97
The silencer on it is a FMF Turbine sst # 020406 TDS-3
This seems to be for a 99-02 KX250. It is def smaller diameter than a 500 silencer.
Is this exhaust setup a possible cause to my lack of power>>????
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Yep, I'd get it changed and go from there.
Where abouts are you?
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Michigan.
Where can i get a pipe and silencer to work on this baby?
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If you were local I'd have you come to the shop and see if the Service Honda pipe would work...
Your a bit out of the neighborhood... Oregon :lol:
You might want to call Service Honda.
But, why not post some pics of your bike as that may elicit more help.
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Would you be interested in selling that pipe? Im sure I could make it work with a little tweek. I really dont feel like fabbing one up from another pipe and ball peeining it all up! I will get some pics of the bike up soon
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No way Ray :-D
Call Service Honda and tell them what your doing and beg... :-o
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Ill buzz them up tomorrow and see if i cant get a pipe and silencer from them. They are in stock cuz i called them today and the lady said they had em on hand so hopefully they will sell one!!!
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Where at in Michigan. I'm over in Bay City area.
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More Info>
The pipe on it is a FMF Fatty # 160797 Y-28
Doing some research this it seems to fit yz250s from 93-4 & wr250s from 94-97
The silencer on it is a FMF Turbine sst # 020406 TDS-3
This seems to be for a 99-02 KX250. It is def smaller diameter than a 500 silencer.
Is this exhaust setup a possible cause to my lack of power>>????
oh holy s**t :-o:roll:... with this pipe and silencer of 250 it can not function properly as well.the 250 expansions chamber and also the diameter of the tube in the 250 muffler is too small for the 500 engine. i mean this exhaust is a performance killer. :evil:
i use a modifyed cr500 stock pipe on my conversion. and it make my conversion a little bit oem-look 8-). and thats what kawasaki already a long time ago should build ... :wink:
but you can use the body of the 250 muffler with the inner tube of a kx500 muffler and it bolts on right to the 250 subframe :-)
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Jeez, sounds like the p/o did a hillbilly hack conversion. So not only do you have a 250cc pipe on a 500cc, you also have a kinked, restricted 250cc pipe on a 500. Sounds to me like you definitely found your issue..
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Just ordered a new SH kawasaki 500 pipe & silencer :-D :mrgreen:
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Just ordered a new SH kawasaki 500 pipe & silencer :-D :mrgreen:
perfekt... than you only have to jet it right and the beast is back to live... :evil: :-D
... http://www.oem-cycle.com/KX500JETTINGGUIDE.shtml ...
and thanks to sandblaster for this great jetting guide on his website... :wink:
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If it's burbly, "smokes pretty good" and has no power, you may well have bad crank seals.
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If it's burbly, "smokes pretty good" and has no power, you may well have bad crank seals.
checking the crank seals is always a good idea , but I still believe that it is mainly to blame for the too small pipe. :wink:
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just got a call from SH and the pipe and silencer is not going to be available for a few weeks now. WTFFFFF
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just got a call from SH and the pipe and silencer is not going to be available for a few weeks now. WTFFFFF
thats bad.. :-( but you can also use a modified cr 500 pipe and muffler to the k5- engine . my bike runs great with this combination... i took a used stock pipe and a new pro circuit 304 muffler.
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just got a call from SH and the pipe and silencer is not going to be available for a few weeks now. WTFFFFF
thats bad.. :-( but you can also use a modified cr 500 pipe and muffler to the k5- engine . my bike runs great with this combination... i took a used stock pipe and a new pro circuit 304 muffler.
Thats pretty much what a Service Honda pipe for a KX500 is........they take CR500 pipes and weld on KX500 flanges on them.
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do you just cut the front of the kx500 pipe off and weld it on to the cr pipe and call it a day? Will the cr500 silencer mount up without a bunch of pounding and mount changes??
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Thats it.....cut off the front of a K5 pipe, weld it to a C5 pipe and mount it..send to chrome if you are worried about asthetics......not sure on the silencer though.
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just got a call from SH and the pipe and silencer is not going to be available for a few weeks now. WTFFFFF
thats bad.. :-( but you can also use a modified cr 500 pipe and muffler to the k5- engine . my bike runs great with this combination... i took a used stock pipe and a new pro circuit 304 muffler.
Thats pretty much what a Service Honda pipe for a KX500 is........they take CR500 pipes and weld on KX500 flanges on them.
thats exactly what i´ve also done... :-)
i cut off the flange off an old damaged 250 pipe, milled it to the right inner size. than cut the pipe for little change in layout, cause i dont wanted to make a big dent for the coolant elbow. less dents means more expansion chamber = more power :-D
but i decided first to try it with an cheap old stock cr500 pipe, before buying an expensive new one ... :-D power delivery is better that i thought before :-D
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does a stock cr500 silencer mount up?
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does a stock cr500 silencer mount up?
I think so. any kind of 89-2001 cr500 u can use ... on my '93-frahme it was easy to assemble the cr500 muffler without any major problems. I had to modify only the connection to the pipe.
here you see before and after modifying...
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Whelp, I picked up a cr500 piper and whacked the mouth off of it and started to see how this bad boy was going to fit in the ol kx250 steelie. I dont know how its going to happen without some major pipe bending/denting etc. Im wondering if the PO didnt put this motor in there in a different way and that is why he had a yz250 pipe and kx250 silencer on it. A 500 pipe and silencer dont appear to be useable???? Unless someone knows how to make a super custom pipe work??????
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So, your using a CR500 pipe for the part that comes out of the head and your using a KX500 pipe for the expansion part?
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Whelp, I picked up a cr500 piper and whacked the mouth off of it and started to see how this bad boy was going to fit in the ol kx250 steelie. I dont know how its going to happen without some major pipe bending/denting etc. Im wondering if the PO didnt put this motor in there in a different way and that is why he had a yz250 pipe and kx250 silencer on it. A 500 pipe and silencer dont appear to be useable???? Unless someone knows how to make a super custom pipe work??????
if you able to read, look a former post of me here in the thread :wink:,
its simple to install a cr500 exhaust to the kx500 . or sea it on my website, but watch out, the cuts in the pipe, that i made, are only because i wouldnt make a dent to the inside of the pipe for the water elbow. the stock-honda-pipe has thicker walls, as aftermarket-pipes, so is denting on it a hard work.
you can also try to turn the elbow upside down and using the water-hose like on the service-kawasaki´s . then you need no denting the pipe and only making the right fitting to the cylinder... 8-) you can mashine an adapter that sticks in honda -pipe and kx-cylinder or you weld on the right flange ...
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No I welded the kx500 mouth (cylinder mount) on the cr500 pipe. But things just dont seem to line up at all and dont fit where they are supposed to. s**t hits the left radiator and waterpump side is no where near close to clearing the cylinder etc. Im lost when it comes to this unless i can get a custom made pipe
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i used the original k5-radiators on my projekt... and all fits well in the ´93-steel-frame .
i think in first you should find out, how much you can lift up the left radiator for pipe-clearance.. and in the case that it works, weld on new rad-mountings to the frame...
post some pics, that we can see your major-problems.
Today we stand at the edge of the canyon, tomorrow we are one step further... :evil:... :-D
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So i put the original pipe back on and ran it again. It runs like the choke is stuck on (but it is not). Im at a loss without being able to try a 500 pipe and silencer.
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So i put the original pipe back on and ran it again. It runs like the choke is stuck on (but it is not). Im at a loss without being able to try a 500 pipe and silencer.
:roll: :roll:... i repeat: post some pics, that the kawasaki-doctor can help with the right therapy for your sick bike... :wink:
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Men of steel can't read to good.
We like pics :-D
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I'll get pics up for ya'll when it quits raining and snowing here! I went out took the governor rod cover off and checked valve operation again and it sure seems to be going out and in just fine. The carb is a 40.5mm bored PWK. How does a bigger carb affect the jetting? Does anyone know what kind of main and needle a guy would run with this carb? That might be why it has a kx250 needle in it. I finally figured out a way to get the cr pipe to get in there but it needs quite a bit of denting to get it runable. then i will be on to figuring out the cr5 silencer, which i dont think will be to bad to get to mount up. :evil:
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that sounds, that you slowly find the way to finish this problem... :wink:
question: it snows and rains also inside your garage, if you want to make the pics?? :lol:.... the kawasaki-doctor-team need no pro-pics to see the bike with the wrong exhaust and details of your fitting problems with the cr500-pipe . 8-)
...big bored carbs like your 40mm pwk or bigger are used for more airflow which makes sure, that the bike runs well in higher rpm´s like its needed for example in highspeed-runs.
for use on small mx-tracks or wood-riding, where is much power from bottom needed are smaller carbs like the stock 39mm or a 38mm in use on the k5.
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Like reading this thread . But I don't think my problem is crankcase seal related .
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i just got mine back togeather and it was running super lazy.. so i checked the plug and it was fine... so i got to thinking about timming, so i looked in my manual of how to set the timming up... when i pulled the flywheel off sure enough it was fully retarded... now its back at the factory marks and the bike runs great... so mabey u guys can check your timming..
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i just got mine back togeather and it was running super lazy.. so i checked the plug and it was fine... so i got to thinking about timming, so i looked in my manual of how to set the timming up... when i pulled the flywheel off sure enough it was fully retarded... now its back at the factory marks and the bike runs great... so mabey u guys can check your timming..
you can timing night and day, but a 500 will never run properly with a 250 pipe...cause the expansion chamber is much to small. thats the point,that we turning around ... timing and eventual jetting are the steps 2 and 3 after installing the right expansion chamber. and i think, if this 3 steps are done the beast awakes with its true powers... :-D
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Change the freakin' pipe! :-D
It could be that the 250 pipe afforded a longer left rad to be fitted. The PO clearly didn't have any reservations about using whatever he had lying around to get the thing up and running. You need a short left rad for the 500 pipe to clear, ie a STOCK KX500 rad with the mounts changed to suit. The pipe really curls round and back on its self on the left, you won't make it work any other way.
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Had to try this and guess what, after i adapted the kx250 pipe on there, though it fit better, it ran like a 125! I had to clutch the thing to get it on pipe! Cr500 pipe is a must! (Here is some pictures of the kx250 pipe while it is still on (http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q766/Clint_Lund/image_zps9d5608df.jpg) (http://s1358.photobucket.com/user/Clint_Lund/media/image_zps9d5608df.jpg.html)
(http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q766/Clint_Lund/image_zps83d6eccd.jpg) (http://s1358.photobucket.com/user/Clint_Lund/media/image_zps83d6eccd.jpg.html)
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Had to try this and guess what, after i adapted the kx250 pipe on there, though it fit better, it ran like a 125! I had to clutch the thing to get it on pipe! Cr500 pipe is a must! (Here is some pictures of the kx250 pipe while it is still on (http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q766/Clint_Lund/image_zps9d5608df.jpg) (http://s1358.photobucket.com/user/Clint_Lund/media/image_zps9d5608df.jpg.html)
(http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q766/Clint_Lund/image_zps83d6eccd.jpg) (http://s1358.photobucket.com/user/Clint_Lund/media/image_zps83d6eccd.jpg.html)
a 500 will never run properly with a 250 pipe...!!! :wink:
i used a cr500 pipe and thats the only way for the sf-projekt... :-D
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HAHA well guys finished my monster garage pipe fabrications and used a cr500 pipe from a SH CR500. Mounted the kx flange and made a little roll dent around the waterpump pipe and blamo she fit like a glove. Got a pro circuit silencer for a cr500 and cut the mounts off and tig welded it in the center where the bike mount was. Easy to get the silencer on the money. Welded my mounts into place and kicked her over. Instantly upon twisting the throttle i knew better things were to come. Geared up and went for a rip, 1000000X better! Changed the kx250 needle out for the stock kx5 needle. Ran even better. Doesnt idle so great tho. Seems to idle high and then after awhile it will idle down and stall. Think there is a 52 slow in there. 165 main. Anyone got any suggestion for me. Vforce 3 reeds, and 40.5mm carb.
PS ya'll were right that old yz bulls**t hillbilly pipe was killin me. I will get pics up of my custom exhaust!
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HAHA well guys finished my monster garage pipe fabrications and used a cr500 pipe from a SH CR500. Mounted the kx flange and made a little roll dent around the waterpump pipe and blamo she fit like a glove. Got a pro circuit silencer for a cr500 and cut the mounts off and tig welded it in the center where the bike mount was. Easy to get the silencer on the money. Welded my mounts into place and kicked her over. Instantly upon twisting the throttle i knew better things were to come. Geared up and went for a rip, 1000000X better! Changed the kx250 needle out for the stock kx5 needle. Ran even better. Doesnt idle so great tho. Seems to idle high and then after awhile it will idle down and stall. Think there is a 52 slow in there. 165 main. Anyone got any suggestion for me. Vforce 3 reeds, and 40.5mm carb.
PS ya'll were right that old yz bulls**t hillbilly pipe was killin me. I will get pics up of my custom exhaust!
whats your altitude?
sea level you should be..
58m
168 - 170 M
middle clip on needle.
2-2.5 turn on air screw
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sounds great ... i´m excited to see the bike with the right exhaust on it... :-D
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Yep im at sea level. 52 pilot jet in there, #2 position on the stock needle, and a 165 main is what i have running now. The carb is a bored pwk 40.5mm.
So you think bump the pilot to 58 and main to 168 then lower needle to #3? It doesnt seem lean at all right now, maybe just on the pilot, but if you think i should give it a pull i will.
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just my 2 cents...I'm at 250'-500' above sea level here in south-east Massachusetts,and I run
168 main
52 pilot
2nd from top(stock needle)
2 turns out on air
...now I do alot of trail riding,reason why I'm a touch on the "leaner side"...with the occasional WOT down a power line/sand pit,and it pulls hard at all times,never have a problem with the front wheel lifting in any gear...and it runs super crisp and clean.
I also run 25% C12 in my fuel.
I'm no "guru" by any means...and I know every bike has it's own characteristics/personality...but I'm thinking jetting is not your issue...since we're so close to elevation.
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foxxx I figured out why it ran like butt, it was the previous owner who had a yz250 pipe and 250 silencer on the bike that made it run like dog s**t. Now im just wanting to make sure my jetting is on the numbers. Im not sure where to be at with the bored 40.5 carb. I know what it should be with a stock carb. Plug seems good with the 165 main and i was doing alot of gravelroad riding WOT. Probably wouldnt hurt to jump it up to a 168 and see if it pulls better??
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look here in sandblasters kx500-jetting guide . its always a great help 8-)
www.oem-cycle.com
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Does the bored carb change the jet size i would need compared to that chart? I ran the bike side by side today wit a cr5. The cr5 deff got more balls. The CR just seemed to have way more snap and could pull the front end with ease compared to the KX5. Seems like i got quite a bit of gass drippin out the bowl overflow. If im in a higher gear and lug it she doesnt seem to have near the torque the CR does in picking up power.
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the jetting guide is a good base ... fine jetting only with looking the color of the sparkplug and short testrides . never on an cold engine...
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Bike pics
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Just checked the plug and she is black. Quite a bit of carbon crap built up around the bottom of the plug (not the electrode part) Running a br8eix iridium plug. Think it is safe to try a 162? That was what was i there with the 250 pipe on it and it ran the best with that jet. Obviously things have changed now, but it sure seems like the plug is black and crappy looking. Carb says PWK V820GG07
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Always set float hight before jetting...
Do that. The correct external way...
Then go look at the jetting I recommended on page 4 of this thread
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Float height is good. Put in a 168M, 55Pilot and moved the needle to the #3 slot on the stock needle. 1.5turns on air screw. Temp is about 55 out. Bike seemed to pull wheelies easier in 1-2-3. Roll on power was not fully there and it just seemed a little more burbly. I think the #2 position on needle will work alot better. I also think the bigger main helped, deff seemed to have more grunt once it wound up. Bike idled better with the 55 pilot. Think i found another issue tho, my throttle cable seems to be binding because when i turn the bars full right the bike revvs up due to the cable stretching. Overall tho i would say it improved power over the last setting I ad, but by no means is it dialed :|
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Is 150 psi compression good on a cold motor? Thats wat I got, not sure if this is why it seems down on power compared to my cr???