KX Riders
Maintenance & Technical => KX500 Original => Topic started by: superman on September 07, 2012, 02:42:28 PM
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I would like to apologize for using my Android to post this. I came across this YouTube video. Titled yz/cr500 fi . The user is BikeRiderTV .sorry I can't just paste the video. I know its a af cr500, but can someone explain to me how they got the ( FI ) to work on that motor? Is there a possibility or maybe a aftermarket kit we can adapt to our "original kx's" without doing the AF conversion. Thanks
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Here is the low down from the guy who built it:
right right right!!!! this bike i built as a challange to myself and have spent some 400hrs getting the system to work,it has not been done before and to be honest applying the efi to the 500 was not easy,basic efi theory was put out the window,so i have invested alot of time and not to say money in doin this so with all respect cannot be giving away the specific details of the system.HGT tuning also dont disclose this information and not many people do.what i will discribe is the differences over carb etc,for starters this system is a fuel and igniton system,the igniton and fueling is fully tunable and reprogramable,we can simply change any tune at the push of 4 keys,the bike starts great idles mint,accerlerates fantastic,at this stage i cannot fault the efi.i have put it through some serious testing and have purposfully tryed to break it,things have faulted but i have corrected them,thats R&D.
as far as efi being a benifit over carb,i would say yes,but only just,i beleive a well tuned carb is pretty good,for tuning purposes the efi beats hands down,you can manipulate timing and adjust fueling to match your own riding style.obviously it is pretty limited with the carburettor.
cost,well if we say you buy a new carb,adjustable igniton(vortex) etc you will be getting up there with price,that stacked against doin efi the efi will cost more no doubt but you gain alot more as far as features go,so it does trully boil down to the individual and what they want from there bike?for me personally efi the 2 stroke brings it up to date with the offerings of fourstroke,the lower cost in maintanance and exrtra power,make it a bettter option to me,but that is just my personal opinion.we are currently putting together a tune to make this more tractable than the fourstroke,we have more power standard thhan the four at preswent so we need no more.fuel economy is just a mrketing hype for me,we have gained maybe 6% but hey its only as good as the twist of the wrist and somthing that never has bothered me,power is definately up but i will confirm that with dyno results to come but seat of the pants tells me for sure the power delivery is way more intense but ists hard to describe i woulsd say "neater" more refined than the carburettor.overall i am happy with the efi but i dont think it is what people will be hoping for i think in reality 2 stroke fans just want the 2 stroke to be in the 21st century with its design and efi,ing it definately brings it into that,plus i suppose it looks pretty cool,sorry i can tdisclose to much more on the details of the system,thanks... :)
Sorry am from new zealand,my name is mark barrett,my contact details are cr5001@hotmail.com :)
I wanted people to know this bike was done as it has had so many negative responses and so many people telling me and advising that it would never work.so this is for all those who give things a go,dont give up,nothing is never gained if never ventured....
hopefully we will have the 2 stroke back on top soon!!!!!
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Thanks mate, very useful info for all of us. Kinda knew already, I was just hoping someone was tinkering with something similar here in the states. Thanks for the response
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Thanks mate, very useful info for all of us. Kinda knew already, I was just hoping someone was tinkering with something similar here in the states. Thanks for the response
Our member pvo has working injection on his bike
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The last Cycle World magazine had a neat article about the Husqvarna direct chamber injected two stroke they are working on for street use. Very cool.
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Just got to thinking that a lot of Sleds are or were injected twin or triple 2 cycles. Some around 700 cc's, but there were 500's also. Could use the system and have two injectors? Or at least use part of the system. Just a thought.
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Arctic cat made a 1000cc twin in the M1000 and Crossfire 1000 that would be a good donor for a throttle body and injector. The software would be where it gets tricky me thinks.
It's really sad the development of the factory 500cc bike stopped almost 25 years ago. The KX barely changed after 1989. A modern bone stock 1000cc sled is 168hp on 87 octane, and lasts for thousands of miles between rebuilds, with battery-less EFI. I'd love a new 84hp dirtbike with half that engine in it.
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You know, a good friend of mine has a turbocharged Ski-Doo 800R twin with factory carburation, and an aftermarket boost referenced fuel controller (from my place of business) controlling two fuel injectors based off of the crank pick-up. He is making the somewhere in the 260 HP range, the injection system works very well. We simply leaned out the main jets and tuned the rest with the axillary injectors.
I'm starting to wonder if a vacuum referenced fuel map would give enough information to create an accurate fuel table for one of these 500cc single cylinder engines. Thoughts? :?
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You know, a good friend of mine has a turbocharged Ski-Doo 800R twin with factory carburation, and an aftermarket boost referenced fuel controller (from my place of business) controlling two fuel injectors based off of the crank pick-up. He is making the somewhere in the 260 HP range, the injection system works very well. We simply leaned out the main jets and tuned the rest with the axillary injectors.
I'm starting to wonder if a vacuum referenced fuel map would give enough information to create an accurate fuel table for one of these 500cc single cylinder engines. Thoughts? :?
I'm digging this idea. Would be great with a Lectron. And instead of a powerjet. You have injection to work the entire rpm range
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I'm digging this idea. Would be great with a Lectron. And instead of a powerjet. You have injection to work the entire rpm range
Very true... with this controller you can choose an RPM input, up to 2 different 0-5V analog inputs, and/or use the on-board 2 BAR absolute pressure sensor to determine the injected fuel quantity. We have an injector flow bench at work too, so finding the exact injector specs makes controlling them that much more accurate.
Last thing is to power a fuel pump, injector(s) and controller, run a fuel line and install some kind of fuel pressure regulator. I'm sure a billet intake boot with injector boss would be pretty easy to fabricate. Aimed right at the center of the reed tips... :evil:
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You're making me think now!!! There is actually an extra driver on the board that could be "possibly" used to control a servo for RPM, MAP, TPS based KIPS control :-P
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I'm digging this idea. Would be great with a Lectron. And instead of a powerjet. You have injection to work the entire rpm range
Very true... with this controller you can choose an RPM input, up to 2 different 0-5V analog inputs, and/or use the on-board 2 BAR absolute pressure sensor to determine the injected fuel quantity. We have an injector flow bench at work too, so finding the exact injector specs makes controlling them that much more accurate.
Last thing is to power a fuel pump, injector(s) and controller, run a fuel line and install some kind of fuel pressure regulator. I'm sure a billet intake boot with injector boss would be pretty easy to fabricate. Aimed right at the center of the reed tips... :evil:
Power is easy. I have a mzb
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I'm digging this idea. Would be great with a Lectron. And instead of a powerjet. You have injection to work the entire rpm range
Very true... with this controller you can choose an RPM input, up to 2 different 0-5V analog inputs, and/or use the on-board 2 BAR absolute pressure sensor to determine the injected fuel quantity. We have an injector flow bench at work too, so finding the exact injector specs makes controlling them that much more accurate.
Last thing is to power a fuel pump, injector(s) and controller, run a fuel line and install some kind of fuel pressure regulator. I'm sure a billet intake boot with injector boss would be pretty easy to fabricate. Aimed right at the center of the reed tips... :evil:
Power is easy. I have a mzb
Well, if you wanna play around with this, send me a PM and we can get you something for next to nothing... :-D
I do know that injector placement is KEY is the 2 stroke naturally aspirated application. We never messed with case injection, but that may be easier to adapt?? I haven't walked out to the garage to check out the cases. Not only placement, but angle as well. They make different injectors, and the 4 or 12 hole pintle models work the very best. I can give you some injectors we have used in past applications. I'll run the math tomorrow and see how many CC's we need to FULLY support the engine with zero fuel from the carb (worse case scenario I guess).
What carb are you running Motorrad?
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44 lectron
Best way I see. Is 2 injectors aimed to cross paths just past center of reed tips
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That's a good call there. You could do one of smaller CC's closer for the low range and fine fueling adjustments and use a larger one further back for the upper mid and top end. Many possibilities once the system is actually on the machine! :-D
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Man! You can hear the gears turning! Be pretty cool if it comes together and works well. Fun Stuff!
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Found this article and thought it might be interesting to some.
http://courseware.ee.calpoly.edu/~amaccarl/MyMethanolMotorcycle/
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This place makes EFI kits for $600. Ran across it by accident.
http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800cc_Engine_EFI_kit.html
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This place makes EFI kits for $600. Ran across it by accident.
http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800cc_Engine_EFI_kit.html
i like it, might be the ticket on my klx
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For all thats available in that kit, thats a smoking deal :mrgreen:
My question would be, would the 02 sensor would work in closed loop worth a s**t on a 2T. Also Ive talked to a really bright guy at the local hon yam ktm kaw dealer & he says here in my location theres so much elevation change that the newer efi machine's dont do as well as the old carb stuff. I dont know that they have the MAP sensor though, which would account for that.
I do like the idea of efi but I wish the direct injected was more readily available. Would be issue with misting oil for the bearings though
Yup just looked at their 2T page no O2
http://www.ecotrons.com/2_Stroke_Small_Engine_EFI_kit.html
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Thinking about
"2 injectors aimed to cross paths just past center of reed tips"
& direct injection
Where the K5 bore is nikasil you could drill through the jug , insert an aluminum tube & weld it up on the inside of the jug & the outside so you have a tube to shoot the fuel in just at the very rim of exhaust closing, any later & the compression would wanna drive the injectors out. With a staggered injector driver you could run a single pre reed injector for premix oil that been thinned with a small amount of fuel to make it squirtable. It could be injected 75:1 @ idle, 50:1 @ 1/2 throttle, 35:1 @ WOT.
I'm picturing 2 "FUEL" injectors just at the top of the fore most intake port, one on each side of course, pointing to the rear of the cylinder feeding cool fuel just as that exhaust closes. Not quite direct injected but it could be benificial in economy none the less having the fuel not just blowing freely out the pipe.
So am I smokin the crack pipe or what
Just an additional thought some CR5 guys use the aluminum frame to carry extra fuel, theres your premix tank. I'd like to know the figure on waste fuel on a 2T & if its high enough that fuel consumtion could be drastically improved with the above idea